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Sunday Jan 04, 2009
The Warped Mirror: "We are Hamas" Posted by Petra Marquardt-Bigman
Comments: 59
Perhaps you remember the demonstrations during the Lebanon War in the summer of 2006, when protesters proudly carried placards announcing "We are all Hizbullah". Over at Z Word, you can admire the updated version: "We are Hamas" - a slogan that, as Ben Cohen rightly observes, was "entirely predictable". What Hamas - and therefore the people who identify so enthusiastically with the Islamist group - really stand for has been gruesomely illustrated in the past few days. Last week, an Israeli air strike targeted and killed Nizar Rayyan (sometimes also spelled Ghayan). He was a Hamas military commander who was regarded as one of the most popular and influential Hamas leaders in Gaza; in addition, he served as a "spiritual" leader for Hamas's armed wing and taught at the Islamic University in Gaza City, where his students reportedly revered him as a prominent Muslim scholar. What Rayyan taught his students, and what he preached, is described in a post on Jeffrey Goldberg's blog at the Atlantic:
And make no mistake: Rayyan was a man who didn't just preach hatred against Israel, he practiced it, and nothing was dearer to him than a dead Israeli: In 2001, he sent one of his sons to carry out a suicide attack in Gush Katif's Elei Sinai settlement. That's what the people who march under a banner proclaiming "We are Hamas" identify with. And this is also what they identify with: as Khaled Abu Toameh reports, "Hamas militiamen had been assaulting many Fatah activists since the beginning of the operation last Saturday ... at least 75 activists were shot in the legs while others had their hands broken ... sources close to Hamas revealed over the weekend that the movement had 'executed' more than 35 Palestinians who were suspected of collaborating with Israel and were being held in various Hamas security installations." And this, too, is what it means to identify with Hamas: reportedly, before striking Rayyan's house, "the IDF tried to warn his family about the imminent attack and urged them to evacuate the place, but they refused to do so." As a result, apparently at least two of his four wives and several of his 12 children were killed in the airstrike. We can only speculate if Rayyan and his wives sought to attain the "martyrdom" he had always glorified, or if Rayyan hoped that his wives and children would serve as "human shields" and deter the Israeli military from striking his house, which, according to the IDF, "was used as massive weapons storage facility, as well as a military communications center. Located underneath the house was an escape tunnel for terror operatives of Hamas's military branch." Bradley Burston has an interesting take on this: he explains that Rayyan firmly believed that whatever Israel did to Hamas, Hamas would win: "If you kill us, we will become martyrs, the most beloved of God and the Palestinian people, and we will win. If you refrain from killing us, whether from fear or political expedience or moral considerations, we have only cemented our victory." Rayyan devoted his life to teaching hatred and preaching hatred and glorifying the violent death that is courted in the pursuit of this hatred. This is what Hamas, this is what Islamism stands for. Those who accuse Israel of using "disproportionate force" against Hamas would do well to acknowledge this instead of lending indirect support to people like Rayyan by pretending that somehow - if Israel only tried hard enough and was willing to make enough concessions - such people could be cajoled into "moderation" and peaceful coexistence.
1 |
Troy America,
Sunday Jan 04, 2009
Thank for writing this very informative article about Hamas and the sorry mental state of a vast amount of Arabs living in the middle east.
2 |
London UK,
Sunday Jan 04, 2009
Those who associate with Hamas seem to side with anyone killing Jews.The modern form of anti semitism is anti Israelism ie: expressing outrage at everything Israel does to defend itself whilst regarding senseless terrorism against Israel as a noble cause.Anti semitism is nothing new and the current storm troopers are claiming that they are Hamas.They too will end up in the dustbin of history.
3 |
anonymous,
Sunday Jan 04, 2009
Thank you.
4 |
Anne South East UK,
Sunday Jan 04, 2009
UK
Thank you for exposing the truth. We are sick and tired of the lies we hear on the TV. Hamas is causing the problems - wake up rest of world. Thank you
5 |
Michael Landes,
Sunday Jan 04, 2009
This should be published in international newspapers to open the eyes of sleeping polititions and people who believe in unification of believe in the top of some organizations. God is once again blessing Israel and so do I from the middle of Europe. The Holy scriptures say: the one who blesses his people will be blessed. The one who curses his people wille be cursed. That was alike at anytime of Israels history, and is so still today. Israel needs God's correction, but HE never let his people down. Hatred is cursed once and forever.
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wanetta combs usa,
Sunday Jan 04, 2009
This article needs to be on the front page of every major American newspaper, asap.
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Claudio, Brazil,
Sunday Jan 04, 2009
Military action is not enough to defeat Hamas. It is very important to let the world know who those terrorists are and what they stand for. The kind of information onveyed in this article should be distributed worldwide. We must also fight the information war.
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Bob of Boston, MA USA,
Sunday Jan 04, 2009
The only other thing I'd add to this honest article is some photos: the teenagers killed and maimed by a Hamas suicide bomber at a Tel Aviv disco, including a photo of the Russian immigrant girl permanently brain damaged and living in a hospital bed from shranel in her brain; photos of the children and families who were blown apart in the Jerusalem Sbarros; a before and after photo of the remains of what had been three beautiful Israeli women who were enjoying themselves in an outdoor cafe in Tel Aviv, blown apart by a Hamas murderer who clearly targeted a group of innocent Jewish women...
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C. Smith,
Sunday Jan 04, 2009
Alan M. Dershowitz in The Wall Street Journal (Opinion section, January 2, 2009) writes: “In a recent incident related to me by the former head of the Israeli air force, Israeli intelligence learned that a family's house in Gaza was being used to manufacture rockets. The Israeli military gave the residents 30 minutes to leave. Instead, the owner called Hamas, which sent mothers carrying babies to the house….”
[ Link to page ]
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peterthehungarian,
Sunday Jan 04, 2009
What to expect from the demonstrators when the so called liberal left media is happily publishing classic anti-Semitic stuff? A headline in the British Guardian : "Do Israel pilots feel happy killing innocent women and children?" reminds us the well known blood libel. But I think that this is the best of it: [ Link to page ]
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Brett - Chicago,
Sunday Jan 04, 2009
Don't worry what these Islamofascists think, just keep kicking their butts!!!
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Sonal, Mumbai, India,
Sunday Jan 04, 2009
I am puzzled why so many so-called "secular" and "progressive" and "peace-loving" people of the world are so reluctant to see Islam for what it really is. Is it because secretly many Westerners still want the elimination of the Jews? Is it because they think they can use Islam against their enemies like the British used Muslims to undermine India's freedom movement? The West claims to be secular, yet, it keeps accomodating and encouraging Islam in so many direct and indirect ways.
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Vinegar Hill, Madrid, Spain.,
Sunday Jan 04, 2009
Reading the article reminds one of ex President Reagan who lived in a world of picket fences and roses. Isn't it nice that Petra can go to sleep thinking that Israel is so right and Hamas is 100% wrong. Well done Petra!
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Malcolm London,
Sunday Jan 04, 2009
The link to Goldbergs blog with Riyyan's quote is a dud SInce it's hihgly relevant please find it and correct it
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Jerry, Nassau Bahamas,
Sunday Jan 04, 2009
We must all come to the sad realization that the continued existence of Hamas as a terror organization ,able to lob rockets into Israeli settlements and cities and, the continued existence of the State of Israel are mutually exclusive. There can be no compromise with terrorists or, their fellow travellers and enablers.
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OA,
Sunday Jan 04, 2009
Perhaps a lot of jewish citizens should take a little vacation and live in Gaza Strip just for the sake of experience.
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Jim4Jews, USofA,
Sunday Jan 04, 2009
Most certainly Rayyan's family members were merely 'human shields'. 'Martyrdom' is what they claim when a 'human shield' fails.
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Alice,
Sunday Jan 04, 2009
Most moderate arab countries are not truly caring about if IDF erases hamas. In fact the IDf is the enemy of these moderate states, yet the enemy of my enemy is my brother is more appropot now than ever before. Privately Saudi, yem, etc are all encouraging the IDF to take out hamas completely in spite of the rhetopric on arabic news channels for public consumption. Egypt has an absolute hate on for hamas , and knows that if hamas is erased, regular palis will be able to live
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bob clark,
Monday Jan 05, 2009
Thank G-d for the nation and people of Israel. These people are on the front lines of war with the Arabs; who by their own modern writings would seek to destroy the people of Israel and constantly violate the 1948 UN separate nations accord for Jews and Arabs. My wife Irina, who is Jewish and I , who is methodist are visiting Israel in April. This Gaza incursion had to happen . Would Americans allow 10000 missiles to be shot at us for years ? And now Hamas wails likes babies and their men hide with their weapons inside hospitals and use women as human shields. These Gazans lack honor as men.
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Spencer, Fort Collins, CO USA,
Monday Jan 05, 2009
Protest against Israel's action is not mainly stemmed from hatred towards Jews, rather disbelief at their actions. 400+ murdered Palestinians? Please view this video ( [ Link to page ] ) to understand why so many are perplexed by what the IDF and their commanders are doing. If Israel stops their campaign, less people will die, period. I'm still waiting for IDF footage of them actually destroying Hamas rockets and military structures to outweigh the footage of sheer carnage...
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mary usa,
Monday Jan 05, 2009
I urge everyone interested in this article to read Joan Peters book "From Time Immemorial" and your eyes will really be opened.
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General Ashnak,
Monday Jan 05, 2009
Sadly you have a mistaken view of how the world views Israel. You are never going to successfully remove the influence of Hamas or any other extremist organisation from the ongoing conflict with Palestine until you try and win over the Palestinian people. This will not happen whilst they feel like they are victims and prisoners. Continuing to make them into an oppressed people will only perpetuate the conflict. I only hope that Israel - as the only nation capable of influencing the peace process - will realise this before more innocents (mostly Palestinian to be fair) die.
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Yehuda Sherman, San Diego, CA, USA,
Monday Jan 05, 2009
Can anyone explain to me the motivation of Israeli "leftists." They criticiz the Israeli government when it tries to protect them. I would like others to know who I am.
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mickey spiegel, canada,
Monday Jan 05, 2009
The eradication of terrorism as taught to the Palestinians can only be done if it is started in kindergarten. Eliminate the hateful teachers, change their textbooks, teach love, coexistance, peace, and maybe in a 100 years it will be a much better to live there.
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Joe.S.,
Monday Jan 05, 2009
The Rayyan family issue has come as a suprise to people in the West, they know nothing about "rooftapping" but then when the IDF is painted as worse than monsters , what can we expect. I'd second those here who call for this calibre of writting to be in the hard copy news. Why the hell isn't this woman a columnist, Harowitz?
Great article.
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MSQ, Denver, CO,
Monday Jan 05, 2009
This is a completely ridiculous article, written by people who see things only from the Israeli point of view. This hatred towards Israeli this article talks about is the product of occupation and extreme injustice. Things should be viewed in their right context. You need to read the full history to judge things. A country that is built os such basis, as Israel, will disappear. God (or nature if you wanna call it so) does not stand such extreme injustice so long!
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akus md USA,
Monday Jan 05, 2009
A video forgery has surfaced now and has appeared at least three times on the Guardian's CIF site. I have written to them to request its removal, but I suggest that all those interested be aware of of this forgery which has been edited to make an explosion of a Hamas munitions truck in 2005 look like the results of Israel's air strikes in 2009. It has been retracted from liveleak and I hope that it will soon be retracted on the Guardian, but in case not, keep an eye open for it: [ Link to page ]
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Michael, New York USA,
Monday Jan 05, 2009
Hamas equals hate. It is so frustrating to see people the World over voice support for Hamas. When missiles fly into Israel they are minimized as "amateur" and "nuisances" yet we all know otherwise. Jews are allowed to die but please let them die quietly and meekly. What the World can't tolerate is a Jew that fights back and defends himself. Thus when Israel fights back it's called disproportionate use of force. As if Israel should manufacture qassams and fire blindly into Gaza. I think all those who belittled rock throwing many years ago are the ones minimizing the missiles today.
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Larry, USA,
Monday Jan 05, 2009
Petra Marquardt-Bigman, I would like to thank you for bringing the undeniable truth to the world that Israel trying to deal with Hamas endlessly is an impossible task given their credo of the total destruction of Israel or death. They will never accept Israelis so the only option is self preservation, an obligation put on the current generation of Jews by the reality that was the Holocaust. Never again is more than a slogan.
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Chris Francis, London, Canada,
Monday Jan 05, 2009
If Palestinians have stability and prosperity, they will reject the hatred embodied in the teachings listed above. At one time, we questioned whether "Russians loved their children" (Sting) and whether the ANC would kill all white people if they took power.
Israel has had to be strong to survive. Now Israel needs to avoid overplaying its military strength and needs to respond perceptively to changes, such as Hamas trying to provide good government in the Gaza Strip. The Israeli government must recognize that some or most Hamas leaders are pragmatic and want an honourable peace.
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Jorgen Norway,
Monday Jan 05, 2009
A very well written and informative article and just what the world neads to hear. Unfortunately, mainstream media in Norway is full of bias, so it is difficult to get the hole picture.Yoy are doing a very good job! I will send a link to this article to all my friends so they can be enlightened.
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Johanna Finland,
Monday Jan 05, 2009
Rayyan indeed said it all himself. Thank you, this truth should definitely be posted everywhere! We pray that the politicians in our country receive the grace of God: see the truth and do the right thing with respect of the apple of His eye. Shalom al Israel.
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arielle,
Monday Jan 05, 2009
To those of you who keep saying that this article must be more widely read, you can cause this by 'digging' or putting it on your facebook frofile and so on. Just use those little icons at the bottom of the article. They are there for a reason. (The second one is 'digg')
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Amit UAE,
Monday Jan 05, 2009
Chris, thats spot on! why not give these people jobs and stability instead of letting them live like refugees? in crowded camps, border openings for two hour windows and only 10 trucks of supplies at a time, is this what your ancestors endured the holocaust for? to let their children bring about the misery to another nation. yes they are extremists and want to destroy Israel, poverty and desperation usually leads to 'mob ideology', educate them and employ them, this will bring peace and stability to the region.
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Pam Dixon, Albany, GA USA,
Monday Jan 05, 2009
Everyone that I know is supports Israel and understands that they have the right to defend their people against a terrorist organization. I feel I must state that everyone I know supported John McCain and Sarah Palin, two people who steadfastly support Israel and whom I think would not leave a question mark in the minds of the people. I have sent this article out to everyone person that I know and have asked that they do the same. We will continue to force Obama to provide his REAL foreign policy as it relates to Israel.
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FightingIrish,
Monday Jan 05, 2009
Amit, Chris: Hamas is not providing good government. Chris as a Canadian you should know better but your anti-semitism is showing through loud and clear. If Hamas was to provide good government it wouldn't fire rockets into another country. It would use any and all aid money to go toward feeding and enriching the lives of people in Gaza. Regarding the ANC...well what was feared hasn't happened in SA, but it sure did in Zimbabwe didn't it? In a twist of the old saying...if you don't know what you're talking about...don't talk about it.
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Rook McDougall,
Monday Jan 05, 2009
I don't think it's fair to criticize Chris as "anti-Semitic" even though you or I may disagree with some of his interpretations. While some clearly are, I don't think it serves Israel's purpose to label every criticism as anti-Semitic and there was nothing in his that suggested that to me. But the facts are that Hamas is an extremest group devoted to destroying Israel, and they have completely failed in providing good government to their people. Reasonable people don't make their central position "I don't recognize your right to exist." Until they change that, they'll continue to be pariahs.
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Rook,
Monday Jan 05, 2009
I don't think it's fair to criticize Chris as "anti-Semitic" even though you or I may disagree with some of his interpretations. While some clearly are, I don't think it serves Israel's purpose to label every criticism as anti-Semitic and there was nothing in his that suggested that to me. But the facts are that Hamas is an extremest group devoted to destroying Israel, and they have completely failed in providing good government to their people. Reasonable people don't make their central position "I don't recognize your right to exist." Until they change that, they'll continue to be pariahs.
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M.Robinson,
Monday Jan 05, 2009
Did no. 30 read the article? Did he miss the bit about Hamas's covenant declaring its undying commitment to the destruction of Jews in general and Israel in particular? You cannot reason or negotiate with these people; they use ceasefires to re-arm and consider any agreement that they enter into as totally dispensible when it suits them, which is usually immediately. They consider deception of non muslims to be a point of honour.
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Julius Galand,
Monday Jan 05, 2009
I work in a supermarket, in comes a woman we start to talk about the middle east, as we talk she mentions that she works works with an Palestinian. The Palestinian says to her, It is not enough what the Israelies are doing to HAMAS they should BOMB them out of their existence. Most of the people there are prisoners of HAMAS. He called his Mother in Gaza to hear how she is doing, she said she was fine. The HAMAS are evry where they have to obey HAMAS or they will be killed.
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Chris--United States,
Monday Jan 05, 2009
Re: Yehuda Sherman---You have hit the nail on the head. I pray that Mr. Obama can make the proper judgements, not only for the sake of Israel, but for the U.S. as well.
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Murray Leeds,
Monday Jan 05, 2009
Right on FightingIrish: Is this Chris for real. Such ignorance is embarrassing. I often wonder where people like this Chris come across with such childish information. ML
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Michael Greenberg,
Monday Jan 05, 2009
If only Annie Lennox and her blleding heart protesters could care 1 iota for a Jew's life--nope, it seems that all they see is the fog of disproportion,the sympathy from the Hmas propaganda t.v. of the bloddied dead and wounded Gazans (not distinguishing who wre Hamas or their family ,or "innocent Gazans" ...Jew kills Arab--world goes into riotus righteous indignatation...Arab terrorizes and kills or attempts to kill Jew,well,NO PROTESTS,NO STREET MARCHES,NO U.N . / EURO Diplomats running around trying to stop it---THIS IS REAL DISPOROPORTIONATE RESPONSE by the "World Community".
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Michael Greenberg,
Monday Jan 05, 2009
What would Annie Lennox and her humanitarian do-gooder protesters do if rockets were lobbed into her Scottish parents,and family relatives homes by terrorist thugs hiding behind human cibilian shields.She would expect the British military to do nothing to stop it?
Or even the Pro-pal Arab/Muslim "regulars" protesting any IDF operation that kills some Pals--what would they do -living in Britain--if rockets werelaunced at their homes by Arab-hating Brits who hid behind civilians to launch them? Would they not want the British miltary to destroy the terrorists even if it meant civilian deaths?
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Michael Greenberg,
Tuesday Jan 06, 2009
Host Don Lemon on CNN when asked what would the U.S. do if terrorists from a neigbouring territory launched rockets into American population centres,would the U.S. not try to stop it militarily --and this dumpkopf host answers" I'm not so sure" .....this takes "political correctnes" to absurdist lengths.so that supposedly smart people cannot think straight..What,you are supposed to let the terrorists have their way with no response? Or that no response is worth even 1 "innocent civilian" dying-so your supposed to let their rockets kill your momma? "Humanitarian PC"gone mad.
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Ken - Georgia, USA,
Tuesday Jan 06, 2009
When we have armed men holed up in a house here we do not send one cop to take down one bad guy. We send enough to make sure the job is done and that the situation does not accelerate. Give them the hell they deserve!
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Scott Brown, So CA, USA,
Tuesday Jan 06, 2009
When I first watched the video linked by Spencer as an example of Israel barbarism I saw a lot of men in military uniforms. So I think, well if Hamas cared for its people it wouldn't gather its army near them. Thank you akus for pointing out that its an old video from a HAMAS parade. Amit and Chris, Give them jobs?? They can find work their own once they stop firing rockets. MSQ, if your God cared for those souls in Gaza it would strike down the Hamas leadership. IAF weapons are accurate, certainly more than those of Hamas, but they get around the children those necrophiles.
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Jonny, Israel,
Tuesday Jan 06, 2009
Always remember that Hamas was brought to power in Gaza DEMOCRATICALLY by the Palestinian people. That is, Nizar Rayan and his friends are not anomalies. They are the will of the people in Gaza. Dont believe for a moment that Left-liberal crap that 'the extremist radical terrorists hijacked and took over Gaza and that the average poor Palestinian is simply an innocent bystander". Sorry to say it, its not politically correct, but yes, Israel, the Jewish state, is at war with the Palestinian people and not just 'a few crazy Islamists'.
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lalat pengganggu, yogyakarta Indonesia,
Tuesday Jan 06, 2009
i know u all have a big hatred against hamas. but one thing i want u to know that Islam doesn't like war, we're peaceful faith. i'm moslem and i love living together, whatever your circumstances. i think this bloodshed must be eased by dialog with a profound initiative
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john USA,
Wednesday Jan 07, 2009
I am familiar with moslems, my daughter is being raised moslem, but be REAL,.. moslems need to care for their own fanatics, AS THE CHRISTIANS STOPPED THE SLAUGHTER IN SAREJEVO,..If you allow your children to be used as shields, or bombs IN ALLAH'S NAME, then make the change yourself, or don't WHINE when your kids are killed because of the policies of the people you voted for,.. I don't care for jews either, but at least their society protects their children and seems to be making an attempt to protect your kids, too,. unlike the islamists who do nothing but encourage HAMAS.
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akus md USA,
Wednesday Jan 07, 2009
As (almost) unbelievable as it sounds, France 2 TV played the video forgery from Liveleak of a 2005 Hamas explosion edited to claim it was a 2009 Israeli bombing before hastily removing it. This is the same TV channel that triggered the Al Durrah affair. Apparently, they never learn, and just carry on pursuing their agenda of hatred towards Israel.
52 |
New Yorker N.Y,
Wednesday Jan 07, 2009
why not give these people jobs and stability instead of letting them live like refugees? in crowded camps, border openings for two hour windows and only 10 trucks of supplies at a time, is this what your ancestors endured the holocaust for? to let their children bring about the misery to another nation. yes they are extremists and want to destroy Israel, poverty and desperation usually leads to 'mob ideology', educate them and employ them, this will bring peace and stability to the region.
53 |
Fatih - Germany,
Wednesday Jan 07, 2009
I do not understand the reaction of the commenters. Whatever the Hamas is, how can you justify killing babies, children an women. If Hamas is enemy find ways to fight with him, but how can you kill all those innocent beings. If Hamas is terrorist when they kill innocent Israel peoople, what is Israel soldiers when they kill innocent Phalestianen babies. Do you have a brave heart to answer this question? What is the different between Hamas and Israel state. A state can be better more considirate than what you describe terrorist. Just think of those dying babies, if you can.
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BIG JOHN, SPRINGFIELD MO,
Thursday Jan 08, 2009
THE ONE AND ONLY "TRUE GOD" WILL ALWAYS BLESS ISRAEL!!!!!!!!!!! "GOD SPEED" ISRAEL!!!!!!!!!!!
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Edith, Toronto,
Thursday Jan 08, 2009
I can read many articles on the Palestinian side of things which would sound just as damning on Israel as this one is on Hamas. Whatever the truth is, we need solutions. Let the side which declines to negotiate an agreement be the enemy. Mudslinging and finger pointing is easy. Solutions not so much. How does Israel free itself from suicide attacks and rockets? I dont' know, but not negotiating isn't working and neither is bomb-dropping. The current methods could be the best recruiting tool Hamas has had in a while. Shalom.
56 |
John in Indianapolis,
Sunday Jan 11, 2009
I read alot of these comments, most very high-brow and well written. There appears to be much hand wringing and "how can you kill a child" strawmen from the more dovish amongst us. For the weak-kneed, red waving, peace marching, bed wetting, under-the-bed hiding liberals; here it is in plain english ( or translate as needed): the majority of the Gazan Palestinians have innocent blood on their hands or hearts. If you make the basement of your primary hospital your "nerve center" and main weapons dump, and all the tunnels lead to and from it, if you voluntarily take your wife and kids to a known high-priority target and then scream revenge when they are killed, if you send your own sons and daughters out to kill school kids with suicide/murder belts then celebrate the carnage; you deserve whatever you get!
Force works, permenantly. This one hopes and prays the IDF doesn't stop until they take the hospital and destroy Hamas forever...
57 |
Sven England,
Monday Jan 12, 2009
May G-d bless you John. Here is a video that will shock everyone! Yes is shows Hamas purposely using innocent children as human sheilds. [ Link to page ]
58 |
jonah, Viet-nam,
Monday Jan 12, 2009
Hamas is not simply Hamas,it is a front for Anti-Israel International of which Iran is the most vocal.
But the w0rld refuses to see this evil for, not-so-secretly it hopes to see Israel wiped out.
Let's say it aloud : Israel is hated not because for what he has done but for who he is.
Don't try to look for any reasonableness or rationality in it.
The w0rld simply wants to succeed where Hitler failed.
59 |
Sunshine Australia,
Tuesday Jan 13, 2009
It is simplistic to equate anti-war rhetoric with anti semitism. The people I know who think nobody should support any war suffer from a strange form of idealism. I think it has its roots in christianity and socialism. They see themselves as genuinely compassionate, unfortunately compassion in this tradition also includes judgement. (Unlike in Buddhist theory for instance, which is unconditional) This compassion is also mixed up with pity, and here the arabs have won hands down. They look, act, and talk downtrodden, a comparative mindset can be found amongst Afrikaaners. The lie is irrelevant.
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