Sunday Nov 29, 2009

The Warped Mirror: UN solidarity with Palestine

Posted by Petra Marquardt-Bigman
Comments: 55
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In 1977, the UN's General Assembly designated November 29 as "International Solidarity Day for Palestinian People." It was of course no coincidence that the day chosen for this event was the very same day on which the UN had voted in 1947 to partition Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state.

But this was arguably a rather unfortunate choice: by selecting this historic date, on which the UN endorsed a decision that was rejected by the Arab League and Palestinian representatives, the UN seemed willing to retroactively approve this rejection and the subsequent Arab aggression.

It is worthwhile to recall the straightforward condemnation of the Arab conduct by the first UN Secretary General, Trygve Lie:

The invasion of Palestine by the Arab States was the first armed aggression which the world had seen since the end of the war [i.e. World War II]. The United Nations could not permit such aggression to succeed and at the same time survive as an influential force for peaceful settlement, collective security and meaningful international law."

Even before the partition plan was endorsed by the UN, the Arabs openly threatened war. During a meeting with Jewish Agency representatives David Horowitz and Abba Eban in September 1947, Arab League Secretary Azzam Pasha declared:

The Arab world is not in a compromising mood. It's likely, Mr. Horowitz, that your plan is rational and logical, but the fate of nations is not decided by rational logic. Nations never concede; they fight. You won't get anything by peaceful means or compromise. You can, perhaps, get something, but only by the force of your arms. We shall try to defeat you. I am not sure we'll succeed, but we'll try. We were able to drive out the Crusaders, but on the other hand we lost Spain and Persia. It may be that we shall lose Palestine. But it's too late to talk of peaceful solutions."

These few lines illustrate how little today's political discourse reflects the historical reality: Azzam Pasha categorically ruled out any peaceful resolution, openly threatened a war of aggression, and - unrestrained by concerns about "political correctness" - didn't hesitate to frame the conflict in terms of the centuries-old quest for Arab domination.

The threats of the Arab League Secretary were not empty words. During the week after the UN had endorsed the partition plan, Arabs killed more than 60 Jews in Palestine, and by May 15, 1948, more than 1200 Jews had been killed, most of them civilians. Jews who lived in Arab countries were also targeted, and a New York Times report in May 1948 described their dire situation. The article also noted that the World Jewish Congress had warned the UN already in January 1948 that "the very survival of the Jewish communities in certain Arab and Moslem countries is in serious danger unless preventative action is taken without delay."

But just three years after Auschwitz had been liberated, these warnings were ignored by the UN and the international community. The Jews were left to fend for themselves - after all, the UN had endorsed their right to set up a state of their own on a tiny piece of land.

Today's political debates about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict reflect hardly any trace of these events. More than 6000 Jews killed by Arabs in the violence unleashed in the wake of the partition resolution and the subsequent war, some 15,000 wounded and more than 800,000 Jewish refugees from Mideast countries are simply ignored in a political climate that indulges those who relentlessly seek to demonize Israel as evil aggressor, while the Palestinians are cast in the role of the hapless victims.

There are endless debates about what it means to be "pro-Israel," and often enough these debates explore how hostility towards mainstream Israeli views can best be presented as "legitimate criticism" or "tough love." But there are few debates about what it means to be "pro-Palestinian." If some of the past UN events devoted to demonstrating the organization's solidarity with the Palestinians are anything to go by, vilifying Israel and denying the Jewish state's legitimacy is an integral part of a "pro-Palestinian" stance.

The pervasive hypocrisy is also reflected in a political debate that studiously avoids addressing some of the crucial problems that have contributed considerably to prevent Mideast peace. Certain topics are virtually taboo, and neither politicians nor the media dare, or care, to address them. A rare exception was a recent report in London's Independent that highlighted "a cynical but time-honoured practice in Middle Eastern politics: the statesmen who decry the political and humanitarian crisis of the approximately 3.9 million Palestinians in the Israeli-occupied West Bank and in Gaza ignore the plight of an estimated 4.6 million Palestinians who live in Arab countries."

The discrimination faced by Palestinians in Arab countries was described as comparable to the treatment of Jews in medieval Europe, and the report noted that this deplorable situation is ultimately contributing to an alarming radicalization that benefits Islamists and even al-Qaida.

Another rarely addressed subject was tackled in a recent article by Michael Freund, who examined contributions to UNRWA, the agency set up to serve Palestinian refugees. UNRWA is getting ready to mark its 60th anniversary, but the agency has been struggling for several years to raise enough money to fulfill its mission. Freund highlights the dramatic contrast between the windfall reaped in recent years by the oil-rich Arab countries and their meager contributions to UNRWA, and he points out that "over the past two decades, Arab regimes have been providing a steadily decreasing percentage of UNRWA's funding. In the 1980s, their contributions amounted to 8% of the group's annual budget, whereas now they comprise barely 3%. As a result, Western states are currently providing more than 95% of the funds behind UNRWA's ongoing programs."

In other words, a refugee problem created six decades ago by Arab aggression has been allowed to fester, with the Western world footing most of the bill, and with Israel taking all the blame. At the same time, the Jews who were turned into refugees in the same conflict are never even mentioned - it just wouldn't be politically correct to do so: that's why anyone speaking out for Israel is suspected of belonging to a somewhat sinister "lobby," whereas anyone who shows solidarity with the Palestinians is considered a noble defender of human rights.

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1  |   muslim, Sunday Nov 29, 2009
the Arab league secretary declaration in 1947... IS ...so fascist !!!! one must read an Israeli newspaper to learn about his own history...DOWN WITH ARAB(Muslim) FASCISM!!!!
2  |   Elise, Sunday Nov 29, 2009
Hypocricy by world leaders, the UN and NGOs toward Israel and Jewish refugees? Dissembling , disingenuous nonsense towards the Palestinians? Ignorance of history when it comes to the Middle East? Shocked, Petra, I am shocked.
3  |   Jonah in Jamaica, Sunday Nov 29, 2009
Thank you for sharing the truth. The further truth is that the Pals remain too dumb to recognize that their best friend in the world happens to be Israel and world Jewry who are the only ones willing to provide them with their own state.
4  |   Sonny USA, Sunday Nov 29, 2009
The words used by Arab League Secretary Azzam Pasha in 1947 still resonate today. What may appear as a peace between Israel and the Arabs will in fact be a false peace. The Arabs in there own words have stated that the fate of nation is not driven by rational logic. That’s the bases for all Western diplomacy. This is the key to today’s Middle East if you take Pasha’s quote literally then there can never be peace between Israel and the Arabs. The Islamic world looks at Israel as another Crusader occupation to be destroyed. This means war in the Middle East is the only resolution.
5  |   cyril, Sunday Nov 29, 2009
The most disturbing thind IMO is that the older generation who had some real knoledge and historical prospect about the Israeli-arab problem is dieing out.The new generations will know nothing but anti-israeli propaganda and will believe that's the truth.
6  |   Lauren Cape Town, Sunday Nov 29, 2009
Ignorance, willful or not is unforivable. Different narratives of histories are inevitable and welcomed by historians, but to quote Sherlock Holmes,, you cannot make bricks without clay - facts. Make an unsubstantiated narrative without facts verfiable, and your narrative becomes as worthy as a fairytale. When facts are twisted for political reasons we inhabit a world with funny mirrors. What you see becomes distorted. And what some "esteemed" journalists do to perpetuate the illussions, is unforgiveable. Pity is they live in the world of distorting mirrors and don't realise it.
7  |   Cockburn sea USA, Sunday Nov 29, 2009
Palestinians ...Palestinians..That's all Baloney... The last "Phillistinian" was Goliath and little david creamed his tuchas. As Israel..(little david) still kicks Arab butts! Ms Petra enlightened me with Trygvi Lei's qoute that "the invasion of Israel (he called Palestine) was the first war since ww2!" Interesting! So these recently given freedom Arab states who were under colonialism for centuries vote in the UN and lose! So they go to war! Thats tell us the whole story of the mind of Islamic/fascism's Jihad! Hiroshima here we come ...oops I meant Terhan
8  |   peter, Monday Nov 30, 2009
Jews only have themselves to blame for their parlous position today because they have never attempted to recount the history of Arab rejectionism and hatred of the Jews. Your article should be required reading for every Jew hater who writes and posts anywhere on the web. I will post the reference to your article whenever I see such letters. Thank you for your research.
9  |   bataween, Monday Nov 30, 2009
Excellent analysis by Petra. It is time the debate moved on to discuss a humanitarian solution for the Palestinian refugees, modelled on the successful absorption of the Jewish refugees by Israel. It is a traversy that Israel is expected to bear the blame for an Arab refugee problem she did not cause, and is not allowed to reap the political benefits of 'doing the right thing' by the Jewish refugees. The tide is turning however, a new law has just been introduced in the Knesset demanding equal rights for Jewish refugees in a peace settlement, and more and more people are raising the issue.
10  |   Dr. Dan USA, Monday Nov 30, 2009
Thanks, Petra
11  |   CARES1996, Monday Nov 30, 2009
ITS UNFORTUNATE BUT MOSTLY EVERY ONE OF THE INTERNATIONAL AGENCIES HAS BEEN COMPROMISED,EVEN MORE SAD IS MOST GOV.`S IN THE GROUPS HAVE ALSO BEEN BOUGHT BY PEOPLE UNFREINDLY TO ISRAEL,AMERICA AND DEMOCRACY IN GENERAL.IN REALITY ITS CHEAPER TO BUY THE POLICY MAKERS THEN IT IS TO STAND UP A CAPABLE MILITARY,SO IT APPEARS THAT`S WHAT HAPPENED,IF THE MECHANISM`S PUT IN PLACE DON`T SOON LIVE UP TO THE OATHES THEY TOOK WERE ALL SCREWED,THESE BAD ACTORS CAN ONLY BE STOPPED BY STRENGTH NOT PASSIVISM HOPEFULLY IF ENOUGH STRENGTH(UNITY) IS SHOWN FORCE WON`T BE NECESSARY.
12  |   Lenny S USA, Monday Nov 30, 2009
When those Arab states attacked the new State of Israel and the world (UN) did nothing to stop them..that began all the problems with the whole free world! That attack by Arabs recently freed from Colonialism, set the stage for any rebel country to do anything without any military rebuke! Now these same Arab states who had no army fighting the Nazis who took over all of North Africa..suddenly in two years have an army to fight little Israel. Thank G-d they were a crappy army and little David /Israel creamed their TUCHAS!
13  |   Jen USA, Tuesday Dec 01, 2009
The UN gives and takes, but is never consistent. Israel shouldn't cry about this. The UN overlooks most of Israel's UN violations. The UN has not pressured Israel to give up the nukes or to even move towards demilitarization. By the way Petra, some of us who "support" Israel also "support" Palestinian rights. Any Israeli or American who believes in human rights would. Is it the perceived UN shaming that has you upset or is it the idea that public opinion world-wide regarding Israel and Palestine is changing?
14  |   Dean Adam, Australia, Tuesday Dec 01, 2009
If Israel didn't cause the refugee problem, I can't imagine who did. Just because the people in question are considered arabic, doesn't mean they share the same values as other arabs and can therefore be instantly assimilated into neighbouring societies. They are arabs from the areas around Palestine and Israel and share values with other arabs around Israel and Palestine and should be treated as such.
15  |   tiki Belgium, Tuesday Dec 01, 2009
From writing an articles/comments, things don't change! Take initiative, be bold (like the Pals/Arabs ) do. Being polite and only go with the truth doesn't work; nobody cares or wants to hear the truth. Make it a "MANTRA" talking about Jewish refugees, asking the UN about the DAYS of SOLIDARITY for the Kurds/Africans and all the other millions of "poor refugees", tell the UN that because of THEM the Pals are in the camps, make it a " MANTRA" to talk about the Palestinian plight in Arab countries and tell the WORLD what guilty hypocrites THEY all are with much blood on their hands.
16  |   Robin, New York, Tuesday Dec 01, 2009
This is an incredibly one-sided history, disrespectful of Palestinian humanity. The author states that 1200 Jews had been killed by May 15 1948, but doesn't even attempt to describe Palestinian casualties. An illusion of one-sided violence in a situation in which the violence was one-sided in the quite the opposite direction - by this time about half of the Nakba ethnic cleansing had occurred, including the notorious Deir Yassin massacre. Furthermore, she makes no inquiry into the legitimate concerns that motivated opposition to an exclusionary "Jewish state" on land where Palestinians lived.
17  |   Petra, Bat Yam, Tuesday Dec 01, 2009
Jen, if you google my writings, you will see that I have consistently supported the 2state solution and have always argued in favor of negotiations, including Camp David/Taba and Annapolis. So far, I haven't heard a good explanation why Abbas turned down Olmert's proposals last year. The Palestinians were offered the equivalent of 100 percent of the pre-1967 Westbank-Gaza territory, with East Jerusalem as their capital. Apparently, that wasn't good enough. As to the specific subject of this piece, I think that there is a lot of truth to the statement of the first UN Secretary General I quote.
18  |   Petra, Bat Yam, Tuesday Dec 01, 2009
Robin, how about you acknowledging the historical fact that the Arabs had no qualms to threaten violence and war, and to make good on their threats? If you accept their position because they had "legitimate concerns", as you put it, it follows that anyone has the right to start a war to try to overturn UN resolutions. Moreover, if you want to talk about "ethnic cleansing", i.e systematic expulsion, it was what happened to the Jews in Arab countries, whereas most of the Palestinian refugees left well before the war they supported started in earnest -- they left to wait for victory in safety.
19  |   Matt, London, Tuesday Dec 01, 2009
Most people I talk to who describe themselves as "pro-Israel" also hope for a better future for Palestinian Muslim Arabs. Most people who describe themselves as "pro-Palestinian" hate Israel, and (interestingly) only seem to care about the plight of Palestinians that live in Judea & Samaria or Gaza. No interest in the people that still live in refugee camps in Jordan, Lebanon or elsewhere.
20  |   Matt, Tuesday Dec 01, 2009
#16 Robin - The "Jewish State" was not, is not, and never has been "exclusionary". Unlike the future imaginary Palestinian state, which will be.
21  |   Eli, Kiryat Ono, Israel, Tuesday Dec 01, 2009
Petra, thank you so much for writing this article. Clearly, it is the refusal of the Arabs to recognize ANY Jewish sovereignty here that is at the heart of the conflict. This was true in 1947 and, unfortunately, still true today. Today's euphemism for Israel's destruction is called "right of return". No wonder, then, that Abbas turned down Olmert's proposal. I do not know who Jen and Robin are but they sound like typical Arab double talk. Always blame others for your own doing ("Nakba" as an example) and never look in the mirror to reform yourself.
22  |   linda herzberg, Thursday Dec 03, 2009
Saw yesterday a movie on the treatment of refugees from Africa, going through Libya. heart-breaking. rape, torture, imprisonment and trafficking. The chairman of human rights is chaired by Libya. Heart breaking.So many people are suffering on behalf of the Palestinians who claim to be the only refugees in the world. who miss every opportunuty .and the Palestinans who never get their chances for settling and are mislead by Arab governments. even the day of the voting in the UN they have to borrow from Jewish history. thank you for an informative article.
23  |   Jen USA, Friday Dec 04, 2009
#21 Eli, You shouldn't presume to know me. I read Petra to hear other views. I suggest that you try to listen to differing opinions. I know a family who are (by their own definition), Christian 1st, Arab 2nd, American 3rd & Palestinian 4th. Even though the Palestinian identifier is 4th, it still means a lot to them. Petra paints the Palestinian refugees with a broad brush. This family was expelled from their mixed-religion village DURING the conflict... by Zionist thugs who viewed their Arab-ness a threat. It is important to face truth on all sides.You should check your own mirror.
24  |   Jen USA, Friday Dec 04, 2009
Petra, I think that there are many reasons why Abbas rejected Olmert's proposals. Neither leader was in a strong position to make the deal. The entire offer was made verbally and provisionally (what kind of deal is that?), with no backing from then FM Livni or DM Barak. Abbas was offered 94%-96% of the pre 67 territory but the 4-6% left out was important. I think the biggest obstacle was that Israel would keep land and roads that would divide Palestine into 4 cantons (5 if you count Gaza)...untenable for any state. The Israeli gov.has no balls when it comes to dealing with Settlers! cont...
25  |   Jen USA, Friday Dec 04, 2009
Petra continued...I will say that Olmert's ideas for Jerusalem were quite good. Much of the offer was good, just not believable. A verbal promise & a handshake just won't cut it when there is so little trust. Which is why, I still believe, that Israel and Palestine cannot do this alone. I would like to point out that I never mischaracterised your position on the two-state solution or on negotiations. I don't know where you got that from my comment. I just questioned your defensiveness. I am consistent in my support of a sustainable and peaceful solution for both Israel & Palestine.
26  |   George of Belgium, Saturday Dec 05, 2009
Jen, The excuse that "both leaders were too weak to cut a deal" is weak at best.. A proposal was handed by Olmert, all Abbas should have done was accept it (Or accept it in principle to promote negotiations) and put the burden of proof on the Israelis. However, There was nothing he could have lost from it. However, Palestinian were always consistent in putting the welfare of their compatriot as second concern.
27  |   George of Belgium, Saturday Dec 05, 2009
Jen, The claim that " Israeli gov. has no balls when it comes to dealing with Settlers" is both uneducated and untrue. Israel gave the entire Sinai for (cold) peace with Egypt, forcibly evicting when necessary settlers. The same scenario just happened when Israel evicted to the last person all Israelis from the Gaza strip, giving up all settlements to just witness Hamas take over and profitable towns that provided keep to Israelis and Pals alike, revert into rocket launch bases. It it baseless to presume that the settlements are the main issue given these facts.
28  |   Eli, Kiryat Ono, Israel, Saturday Dec 05, 2009
Jen 23, by sharp contrast to the extreme internal violence and oppression in the Muslim world (11 million killed by their brothers in the past 60 years), and in spite of incessant attempts to eliminate Israel, it has built a free and vigorous democracy. So although it is not perfect I look in the mirror with great pride. Violent Arab attempts to eliminate Israel occurred with East Jerusalem in Arab hands long before the "occupation". So the issue is not 1967 borders but Arab will to destroy Israel; today through "right of return". Solve this and you have the 2 state solution.
29  |   Petra, Bat Yam, Sunday Dec 06, 2009
Jen, your description of the Olmert proposals is incorrect. Olmert offered the equivalent of 100 percent of pre-1967 Gaza-Westbank territory; any land annexed by Israel was offset by landswaps of equal size and quality; the Westbank territory would have been contiguous, i.e. there were no provisions to keep any roads that would create "cantons"; and Olmert also offered a guaranteed safe passage connecting Gaza and the Westbank.
30  |   Jen USA, Wednesday Dec 09, 2009
Eli, As I said, I support Israel. I just happen to also support the valid historical, religious and social ties that Palestinians have to the same land. You can look in your mirror with pride but please make sure that it is not a false pride. Remember, there are many Israelis who desire Arab eradication, including your FM. It's a shame! There have been so many lost opportunities to work towards a good resolution. The current leadership won't even talk. Posturing from both sides... is this the best your leaders can do? Most Israelis and Palestinians (yes) want a peaceful resolution. Make it.
31  |   Jen USA, Wednesday Dec 09, 2009
Petra, You really should read Aluf Benn's (Reuters & Haaretz) description of the offer & why it failed. You are incorrect about the 100%. Olmert's people said that the offer was 96%- Abbas' people said 93%. Olmert offered a land swap of 5-7% of the WB for desert territory next to Gaza (your "safe passage"). Not equal quality swaps. According to most accounts, there would still be roads to Settlements ("strings & balloons") which would have divided Palestine. At least let's be honest about the deal's workable points and it's failures. Pretending the offer was amazing won't make it so.
32  |   Eli, Kiryat Ono, Israel, Saturday Dec 12, 2009
Jen #30, unfortunately you are misleading those who do not know the details. Arab will to destroy Israel through "right of return" and other extremely violent means is the issue. Show me ONE Arab leader who publicly said (and remained alive) "we are willing to abandon the right of return and accept a Jewish state in our midst". For over 60 years I have been looking for this, to no avail. The ridiculous 4% will be resolved easily if destruction of Israel is not on the table. After 60 years of suffering wars, suicide bombers, rockets I want dignified peace and quiet in a 2 state solution.
33  |   George of Belgium, Sunday Dec 13, 2009
Jen, "Most Israelis and Palestinians (yes) want a peaceful resolution." I wonder how can you gauge Palestinian willingness for peaceful resolution, I am not saying it's not there, I just didn't see any indicators like in Israel that can measure willingness for compromises. something of the sort of peace rallies, voting for left wing party, forming of left parties with peaceful agenda, solidarity parade etc. By the way, did you ignore my earlier comments because you found them aggressive or just irrelevant ?
34  |   Petra. Bat Yam, Sunday Dec 13, 2009
Jen, I only now saw your preposterous suggestion that I read up on the topics I write about. You can be sure that I've read about that considerably more than you. Here's Aluf Benn for you, Haaretz (16.07.09), "What happened on September 13": "All told, Abbas was offered an area equal to the whole West Bank - 100 percent." There have been a number of similar reports, making the same statement. How about you NOT pretending that you read what you recommend to others to read?
35  |   Jen USA, Monday Dec 14, 2009
Oh Petra, I do read. I suggest that you read Benn's article from Thursday, April 9th, 2009 ( [ Link to page ] ). In it, Benn gives talks about the reasons (as he sees it) for the failure of Olmert's proposal and states that Olmert offered 93% & it wasn't enough. The use of "all told" in the quote you used implies an inexact amount or approximation. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, just to make you aware of flaws in your argument. The 93-96% was only one problem with the offer.This blog is an open forum for discussion, not a club of the same-minded... right?
36  |   Jen USA, Monday Dec 14, 2009
George, There have been many public opinion polls taken of both Israelis and Palestinians. As far as indicators from the street are concerned, it is not as simple for Palestinians to freely assemble either inside or out of Israel. This is a sad fact. I missed your earlier comments. I do not believe that either leader was in position to broker a deal. However, I agree with you that they should have agreed to promote negotiations. As far as the settlers are concerned, Israel has both encouraged & destroyed settlements based on political expedience. The fact that many (not all) settlers (cont.)
37  |   Jen USA, Monday Dec 14, 2009
George continued... consider themselves to be guardians of "greater Israel". This is an idea that has been promoted by the far right in Israel, who do respond to pressure from this group (& who is now in power?). A few settlers take the greater Israel idea further &maintain a racist, hate-filled ideology bent on the elimination of all non-Jews from Judea & Samaria. A fraction of this group are terrorist thugs (who attack both local Palestinians & the Israeli Left). Some settlers are simply looking for cheap housing & opportunity. That said, settlements are a big issue, not the only issue.
38  |   Jen USA, Monday Dec 14, 2009
Eli, Unfortunately, if the leaders on both sides don't start to work towards REAL negotiations soon, the idea of a two state solution (which I also support) could fail. Then, Israel could be faced with either... a single democratic but not majority "Jewish" state; a single non-democratic but Jewish ruled apartheid state; or a three state solution with a very militarized dictatorship in Gaza funded by enemies of Israel, a lightly militarized UN funded and self-built Palestinian state in the West Bank and a highly militarized & completely gated (even more than now) Israel. Two states are best!
39  |   Eli, Kiryat Ono, Israel, Tuesday Dec 15, 2009
Jen 38. You consistently avoid my question as to the Palestinian leader who would say, "we are willing to abandon the right of return". You know full well that "right of return" is euphemism for the destruction of Israel. One cannot expect a country to commit suicide. NO Palestinian leader said it and Hamas has a whole culture of death, martyrdom and anti Jewish propaganda the likes of which I have not seen since Hitler. If such words are credibly uttered I guarantee you that overwhelming majority of Israelis will support sweeping concessions. For 60 years I have been waiting. I still do.
40  |   Petra, Bat Yam, Tuesday Dec 15, 2009
Jen, you do realize it's kind of funny to suggest that an older article written by the same journalist on the same subject is more relevant than the newer. Benn obviously returned to the subject because he had more information. Moreover, in the meantime, Olmert has described his offer in detail in several interviews, including during his recent visit in Australia. Even analysts who are not in any way pro-Israel like e.g. Agha/Malley have acknowledged that it is hard to see what more Israel could offer.
41  |   George of Belgium, Tuesday Dec 15, 2009
Jen, I would like to see some of these favorable public polls you mentioned to raise my confidence in the human race. From my vantage point I didn't see any problem for Palestinians to assemble in major cities in Europe (Of which 1 is mere 5 minutes from previous residence) about 10 times a year to spew hatred towards Israel. I considered several times to join them, When I still thought there could be some message of peace, alas all I found is hate filled propaganda that actually pushed me away from the Palestinian cause.. (cont)
42  |   George of Belgium, Tuesday Dec 15, 2009
(cont)Jen, In all fairness, I also don't think that Olmert could have brokered peace, But he did take the chance and staked his entire position and power on a proposal that was bluntly refused, and my wish to hear the Palestinians say YES for the first time, was yet thwarted, again. I think you are a bit too harsh on the current Israeli government, At the most even Liberman called for total separation between Jews and those not accepting the Jewish state on a format that is quite successful in Cyprus, While the Fatah charter that Abbas is committed to, calls for the destruction of Israel.
43  |   Jen USA, Wednesday Dec 16, 2009
Petra, Benn didn't have "more information". He used semantics to back up his point. As I said previously, phrases like "All told" and "Effectively" before giving percentages imply, by their very use, that the figure is inexact. You are a journalist and should know that those phrases are used to direct an argument. I would refer you to interviews with both Olmert's and Abbas' people. Even Olmert didn't claim that the deal was 100% or that the land swaps were equal quality or that the Palestinian state would be contiguous. Why do you? Do you really honestly think that this deal was workable?
44  |   Jen USA, Wednesday Dec 16, 2009
George, The Palestinians have a legitimate grievance against Israel & will continue to express their frustration and anger until there is a resolution. Sadly, Israel will remain "the enemy" until then. I look at those polls as a light at the end of the tunnel that for once, is not a train. I once had the displeasure of sitting at a table between Palestinian students and Israeli students & found the vitriol from both disgusting. I guess that both sides have had 60 yrs to grow their hate. There are blended organizations that do work towards peace and understanding. Their voices... (cont.)
45  |   Jen USA, Thursday Dec 17, 2009
George continued... are usually harder to hear. But, they are there.Yes, Olmert took a chance but he didn't have the backing to pull it off. Abbas wasn't in the position to accept. It would have been great to hear either of them use the offer as a platform for negotiations. You are correct that I am not a fan of Netenyahu or Lieberman. Lieberman's "loyalty oaths" are a horrible idea to entertain in a democracy. It is a thinly veiled attempt to eliminate dissent,the indiginous Arabs & the Left. I also don't view Cyprus as a success- as the peace is tenuous. Israel needs a durable peace.
46  |   Jen USA, Thursday Dec 17, 2009
Eli, You want me to name one Palestinian leader who will give up the right of return. I will turn it around and ask you to name one Israeli leader who would accept Palestinians' right of return. For either side to do so, would be political suicide and the loss of an important bargaining chip. The Palestinians will never accept that they have no right of return anymore than Israel will accept a complete right of return. That is what negotiations are for. I agree with you about Hamas. Don't you think that a brokered peace between the PA and Israel would actually decrease their power?
47  |   George of Belgium, Thursday Dec 17, 2009
Jen(cont), I am no fan of Liberman's proposals, but don't you Americans have a Pledge of Allegiance ? Anyway, I believe both of us will rather hear suggestions for a solution than just violence And actually I found your answer to Eli more intriguing, Do you really believe that you can compare Israel accepting the right of return to the Palestinians giving it up ?
48  |   Piera Prister Texas Usa, Friday Dec 18, 2009
The creation of a sovreign state is the legitimate aspiration of a nation and the Palestinians have this right like everybody else. Unfortunately they don’t have Founding Fathers but only false leaders like Arafat who defrauded them of the vast amount of money the International Community sent them to build infrastructures and schools. But there, children are being indoctrinated and brainwashed against Israel. Mr.Obama this year gave them 900 million dollars that ended up in the pockets of Hamas, the longer-manus of Iran who wants to destroy Israel. 1 of 2
49  |   Piera Prister Texas Usa, Friday Dec 18, 2009
The problem is serious and in the West, the Left failed in helping the Palestinians because in many cases they colluded with the terrorists financed by the oil-lords. In Italy in the eighties the Moro’s leftist government signed a treaty of non belligerence with Palestinians but it resulted in bombings in the Synagogue of Rome, in the train station of Bologna and in many other places. Why do we have to pay if the International Community is blind and doesn’t want to face the problem? 2 of 2
50  |   Eli, Kiryat Ono, Israel, Friday Dec 18, 2009
Jen 46, I am disappointed by your argument. Right of return really means the destruction of Israel, whereas the other way around is not for Palestinians. So you request Israel to negotiate when even Fatah opening position is destruction of Israel. Even as a "bargaining chip" this is a non starter. Hamas is an important part of the Palestinian people and even you agree about their eliminationist agenda towards Israel. Finally, where will negotoations with Fatah that cannot assert its authority on Hamas lead us? Rockets on Tel Aviv? Very disturbing for peace supporters like me.
51  |   Jen USA, Friday Dec 18, 2009
George, We have a pledge of allegience that is volentary. In fact, it would violate our First Amendment to the Constitution to require anyone say the "pledge" for any reason. Yes, I would rather hear suggestions for a solution than violence. My response to Eli was to show that the right of return is a bargaining chip to be used by both sides. I do believe that it is the same. Both sides must bend. To do otherwise is to deny the others' legitimate claims & is an example of leadership that is naive in the extreme or racist (take your pick). What are your thoughts on Pals right of return?
52  |   Jen USA, Saturday Dec 19, 2009
Eli, Right of return within limits (again, to be negotiated) would not destroy Israel. Does any Palestinian leader still hold out hope for complete right of return? I don't think so. However, Israel's dismissal & denial of Palestinian right of return is disturbing. You want peace. Yet, you want to deny that any Palestinians were wronged in the creation & expansion of Israel. Both sides need to honest about the damage they do to each other & stop playing the fragile vicitm. Real negotiations would take the wind out of Hamas' sails. The longer you wait, the stronger they'll become.
53  |   George of Belgium, Saturday Dec 19, 2009
Jen, Better disregard my opinions or risk becoming an incorrigible cynic. with that said, Israel as we know today will cease to exist if the right of return is ever exercised, and benchmarking with other ME countries, not for the better (Subjective opinion). However, I do agree it's a good starting bargaining chip. But after Camp David, Sharon's Initiative and Olmert's proposal I got convinced it's a goal by itself, and if any doubts lingered, they evaporated by the outrage of Arab countries at Nethanyhu's demands that Israel should be accept as a Jewish state at agreed upon boarders.
54  |   Bob, USA, Sunday Dec 20, 2009
Keep in Simple: Set your borders based on REASON and advertise them to the world once and for all already! I live in Arizona, USA. I know the borders of Arizona because OUR maps generally recognize that border. I'm willing to fight and die protecting the sovereignty of those borders. Israel should be prepared to do the same. Hunker down. Your enemies will NEVER rest. You can negotiate...concede...not concede...negotiate some more. Your enemies are life-long. All this talk is simply keeping the sujbect in "limbo" and subject to un-ending (and complicated) debate.
55  |   Coral, Israel, Thursday Dec 24, 2009
Bob, Been there done that. It may seem that what works for you Americans is not quite what works for Israel. Nobody will claim that Gaza boarders are not reasonable, the entire Gaza strip was given to the Palestinians. The dire results were the establishment of rein of terror for both the Gazans who have to suffer political Islam and Israelis who suffer from continuous bombardment from the largest terrorist cell in the ME.And any attempts to hamper the bombardment and hostilities seemed to have drawn a one-sided world-wide condemnation directed at the state of Israel.
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