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Sunday Jul 05, 2009
The Warped Mirror: Is Obama anti-Israel? Posted by Petra Marquardt-Bigman
Comments: 39
Israel is heavily dependent on the US, militarily, politically and economically. With that dependence come certain obligations. If you're going to depend on the US, you're going to have to take American interests into account. And America now defines resolving the Arab-Israeli conflict as a national interest. This, by the way, started with ... George W. Bush, who saw it in America's national interest to resolve the Palestinian problem. The point is that when America has a national interest, Israel has to take it into account." It is important to note that Indyk is right when he emphasizes that it was already the Bush administration that defined the resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as an American national interest. The Bush administration also complained a lot about Israeli settlement construction and pushed hard for the removal of check points and road blocks on the West Bank - it's just that the media wasn't particularly interested back then because Bush was considered as "pro-Israel" and when he or his officials said the same things Obama administration officials are saying now, it simply wasn't considered newsworthy. Another important point the media like to ignore is the fact that since the Oslo process of the 1990s, more and more Israelis believe that it is in Israel's national interest to find a way to disentangle ourselves from the occupation. Over the past few years, polls have also shown pretty consistently that a majority of Israelis support the establishment of a Palestinian state under the terms outlined by Netanyahu in his recent speech at Bar-Ilan University.
Interestingly enough, they also point out: Palestinians do not judge the idea of a state on its merits. They judge it by the company it keeps. ... The new millennium began with the near-universal acceptance of the idea of a Palestinian state, which is precisely when its support among Palestinians began to slip. ... Today, the idea of Palestinian statehood is alive, but mainly outside of Palestine. Establishing a state has become a matter of utmost priority for Europeans, who see it as crucial to stabilizing the region and curbing the growth of extremism; for Americans, who hail it as a centerpiece in efforts to contain Iran as well as radical Islamists and to forge a coalition between so-called moderate Arab states and Israel; and even for a large number of Israelis who have come to believe it is the sole effective answer to the threat to Israel's existence posed by Arab demographics. Those might all be good reasons, though none is of particular relevance to Palestinians; and each only further alienates them from the vision of statehood, the purported object of their struggle." Yet, it seems that the Palestinians were now taken in by all the pundits who couldn't quite stop themselves praising the Obama administration for getting "tough" with Israel and speculating ecstatically about how much tougher they could still get. To be sure, Obama's people were more than happy to feed the media's pre-occupation with the idea that a few more buildings in Israel's settlements would doom the chances for Middle East peace once and for all - who knows (and who cares!!!) that after some forty years of supposedly relentless "land-grabbing" settlement expansion, the built-up areas beyond the "Green Line" take up less than 2 percent of West Bank territory? As the Washington Post's Jackson Diehl concluded after interviewing Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas during his visit to Washington in May, the focus on the Obama administration's demands for a complete stop of any Israeli construction work beyond the pre-1967 dividing line "revived a long-dormant Palestinian fantasy: that the United States will simply force Israel to make critical concessions, whether or not its democratic government agrees, while Arabs passively watch and applaud." How much the Palestinians misjudged the situation was illustrated rather dramatically by their reaction to Netanyahu's speech at Bar-Ilan: Several Palestinian representatives could barely wait for Netanyahu to finish his speech before they began to lash out at him, and the office of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas confidently issued a statement declaring that the positions outlined by Netanyahu constituted "a clear challenge to the Palestinian, Arab and American positions."
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Roddy Frankel,
Sunday Jul 05, 2009
Petra, why does it not bother you that a construction freeze on Jewish towns only, is blatant discrimination? Please note that there is no demand for a construction freeze in Christian towns or Muslim towns. Why do you support the notion that Judea/Samaria is "Arab land?" and that Jews may only live there with Arab permission?
As for Martin Indyk's comment, Israel is not obligated to support American interests when those interests endanger Israel's security. Please don't go soft on us, Petra.
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Petra, Bat Yam,
Sunday Jul 05, 2009
Roddy, I think Israel will be much better off once we have an Eastern border that relieves us from the very real burden to police the Palestinians and to be denounced as the occupying power in the Westbank. Of course there are many historically important places that we would need to give up, but there is no question in my mind that this is much better than the current situation when we get constantly blamed for oppressing the Palestinians. Also, as a historian, I feel strongly that Zionism was originally very much open to compromise, and I believe that we should not lose this aspect.
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Petra, Bat Yam,
Sunday Jul 05, 2009
Another thing is, Roddy: what would you want? That Israel holds on to Judea/Samaria and does what with the Palestinians who live there? You are aware that proponents of the so-called 1state solution want exactly that: that the situation continues as is, and that over time, the Palestinians will be able to demand full Israeli citizenship. That is in my view a nightmare scenario, and the only way to prevent it is to force the Palestinians to have their own state -- it's clear from their conduct that this is not something they really want, mind you.
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Jaime XMarrano Barcelona,
Sunday Jul 05, 2009
Petra you have a historian's perspective,and think rationally.
I on the other hand,usually use my gut feeling,and I neither like nor trust this guy.
I only hope that one day I won't have to say to you.I told you so.
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Hofikoman,
Sunday Jul 05, 2009
Petra, With the Presidential agenda overflowing with challenges why do you insist that Obama's so obviously prioritizing the achievment of a Palestinian state does not represent a change in American Israeli relations? Of course it does, and moreover, the positions of military strategists Jones and Dayton make it perfectly clear that such a state will actually be imposed if necessary. The American withdrawal from Iraq requires another base for pre-positioning of the American military in the oil drenched Middle East, and that base is the West Bank. Such is America's pursuit of inational interest
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EhadXHaam, Raanana, Israel,
Sunday Jul 05, 2009
Roddy, are you familiar with the Hebrew saying: Better be smart than right? The construction freeze on the WB is not because it right or wrong, or discriminatory, or because it is Arab land or Jewish land. But because it is smart. It is in our interest, because the two-state is an Israeli interest (not an American one). The Palestinians will not disappear from the land of Israel just as the Jews will not, and anyone who thinks otherwise is dreaming. A one-state solution would be the end of Zionism. So a two state solution is the ONLY solution and that means that we stop building settlements!
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Petra, Bat Yam,
Sunday Jul 05, 2009
Jaime, yeah, of course, I thought of you when I wrote this -- it was in fact when I saw your recent criticism of Obama that I thought it's a topic that I should try to tackle. When you look at who is happy about a "clash" between Israel and the US, you know that we should think twice about how to react to current US policy. I think that Obama is really trying to change the game, i.e. to prod the Arabs to actually reciprocate for steps we are supposed to take, and if this worked out, it would be a good thing, wouldn't it?
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sean fitzgerald,
Sunday Jul 05, 2009
It was recently reported here that Obama is pushing the Saudi plan of 2002. That is a pro-Palestinian position.
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Jan, Australia,
Monday Jul 06, 2009
Petra, like no 4 I applaud your rational analysis of opinions. But 'gut' can be wrong. It's amazing to me (someone who loves history) is how Israel has come to exist despite people not wanting it to exist. The assimilated Jews of Europe didn't think they needed a state until Dreyfus and some not even until WW2. A Jewish state was the last thing the British empire wanted in its mandate. Ironically Britain in trying to hold onto the Middle East by backing the Arab interest lost most of its empire rapidly after 1946-7, including India and Iraq and even in 1979 its influence in Iran...
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Joan, New York,
Monday Jul 06, 2009
"If you're going to depend on the US, you're going to have to take American interests into account. "
So since Obama is giving Hamas/Gaza 900 million dollars does that mean he can force them to do his bidding as well?
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Petra, Bat Yam,
Monday Jul 06, 2009
Hofikoman: and Jones and Dayton were first appointed by Bush... -- Sean#9: indeed, we should not forget that the Saudi initiative was first published in spring 2002, as a PR damage control exercise after 9/11. Yet, politics being the art of the possible, there is no reason not to seize on the fact that the Saudi initiative means that for the first time in history, the Arab League declared that, under certain conditions, they were prepared to recognize Israel. The Arabs would like to see these conditions as a diktat, but I think Obama is trying to tell them that this won't do.
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Alan,
Monday Jul 06, 2009
Why does it take so long for people to see the truth? Try looking at the beliefs, words and actions of a person BEFORE voting for him. Obama is NO SURPRISE to the people that opposed him, only to those that CHOSE not to. Too Late now.
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Nurit,
Monday Jul 06, 2009
I remember Obama standing at AIPAC and promising Jerusalem (all of) would remain Israels capital. That he would move the US Embassy to that capital. In fact, I remember Obama making many such promises that he obviously had no intention to keep.
Whether or not one supports such as AIPAC, itself increasingly seen as ominous by mainstream America, Obama was prepared to look American Jewry in the eye and make false promises to obtain power. In view of this, and I say this as one who is a "realist" this man cannot be trusted to keep his word. The world needs statesman, not false prophets.
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Hofikoman,
Monday Jul 06, 2009
Petra of Bat Yam - perhaps if Bush had not been sidetracked by failing to realize his Lebanon agenda, and there hadn't been the 2006 war, Bush would have done what Obama is about to do. The point is that Obama is making this the one foreign policy arena where he is trying to appear forceful. But what credibility will he have if he follows through on his olive branch and actually meets with Ahmadinejad after the brutal suppression of the Iranian democratic movement? Right now it looks as if he actually might do it. If I were an Israeli I would feel awfully unsupported if Obama does that.
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Michael Ireland,
Monday Jul 06, 2009
# 14 Nurit - Wow - where are we going to get an "honest" politician or statesman at this stage of our lives. It is like looking for hen's teeth. I cannot think of one honest politician in the last twenty years much less a statesman. Maybe President Obama will deliver peace and a two state solution. It seems to me everyone is committed and all it requires is to sort out the details.
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Manny, Chicago,
Monday Jul 06, 2009
Obama is pushing Israel because it is all he can do. He had no chance of success in pushing the Arabs in any way. Why should the palestinians agree to anything? They get money from the US and Europe, the left media is on their side, and the perception is that Obama is more "balanced". The focus on settlements on 2% of the west bank area is bogus. Although the "two states" solution is theoretically correct, in the current political situation there is no way it will happen, and not because of Israel and the settlements.
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David Turner,
Tuesday Jul 07, 2009
I agree entirely with your observation that there is a consistent US policy that transcends politician and party, that Obama is merely continuing in the footsteps of Bush, albeit with a more assured and less confused hand. Which all begs the problem, as you point out, that the Palestinians are no closer to the political maturity necessary to run, no less create the institutions of governance. So the time-worn yet obvious cliche, there is no partner on the other side. Which beggars whether the Israel government is itself comitted to the compromises necessary for peace. But all this aside, the US
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David Turner,
Tuesday Jul 07, 2009
interests in the region. Israel serves as a foil for the US, distracts Arab street from their corrupt leaders, a stfe target for frustration. The two main US interests are Arab oil and the Suez Canal. Where Sadat was oil-poor, his economy in shambles following the 1973 war, he overcame the street to engage Israel in peace. He paid with his life, and the peace remains cold on the street. The Saudis, by contrast, are rich and would only refocus attention on their own weakness should they openly engage Israel. Poor return for peace, even though they have informal alliance with Israel re Iran.
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David Turner,
Tuesday Jul 07, 2009
So while I agree with your facts and arguments, I still question your fundamental trust in the US as participant in the Special Relationship which is implicit in the quote you take from Martin Indyk. I see great risk to Israel in her dependence on the US, her trust in the bonds that tie the two democracies, to borrow a slogan. When Bush turned to Iran to control the Sadrist insurgents last year, Israel was publicly warned against attacking Iran; and when Obama was soliciting Iran to allow US overflights to Afghanistan, Israel was publicly warned against attacking Iran. Israel is, as I said,
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David Turner,
Tuesday Jul 07, 2009
a bogey in service to American interests. Should Israeli and US interests diverge then, as Indyk said, "If (Israel) is going to depend on the US, (they)re going to have to take American interests into account." the relationship is entirely one-sided when the two sides do not agree. For the US the Special Relationship is a convenience; for Israel the Relationship is not only a material but an emotional need. And emotion confuses logic, blinds judgement. Israeli dependence parallels our Diaspora*s need for acceptance. Both pose the same danger: Denial of reality in service to need. Bad news.
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David Turner,
Tuesday Jul 07, 2009
a bogey in service to American interests. Should Israeli and US interests diverge then, as Indyk said, "If (Israel) is going to depend on the US, (they)re going to have to take American interests into account." the relationship is entirely one-sided when the two sides do not agree. For the US the Special Relationship is a convenience; for Israel the Relationship is not only a material but an emotional need. And emotion confuses logic, blinds judgement. Israeli dependence parallels our Diaspora*s need for acceptance. Both pose the same danger: Denial of reality in service to need. Bad news.
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Roddy Frankel,
Tuesday Jul 07, 2009
Petra, in response to your inquiry about my solution, I offer this: the status quo. Simple. don't you think? Let Arabs live under PA control, and Jews under Israeli control. The Palestinian State already exists. The PA is self-governing. The borders of the state might not be neat, or even contiguous, but there are no rules or regulations in defining borders. Whatever works, that's the pragmatic solution. The worst approach to peace is to force people from their homes. Have you ever been evicted?
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Petra, Bat Yam,
Tuesday Jul 07, 2009
David Turner, I think you are right, both that we agree on much as far as the analysis of facts and developments is concerned, and that we disagree in how we see the US-Israeli relationship. True, it is, as you say, a very unequal relationship, but for a number of reasons I also think that it is a reliable relationship for the foreseeable future. That doesn't mean that US and Israeli interests are always in sync, but as far as a resolution of the I/P conflict is concerned, I do believe that it is indeed both in Israel's and in the US interest--if it's realistic is still another question.
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Petra, Bat Yam,
Tuesday Jul 07, 2009
Roddy, so it seems that what you have in mind is what's usually called "conflict management" - which is of course the only option if the conflict can't be resolved. But actually, you are in quite distinguished company with this view: if you have time, check out the Agha/Malley piece in the NYReview of Books to which I link in my blogpost -- and they are of course regarded as two of the foremost experts on this issue.
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Jen USA,
Wednesday Jul 08, 2009
Roddy, The status quo is untenable, for financial, security and political reasons. If Israel is to survive, there needs to be an independent Palestine that both wants to work with & trade with her. Nobody needs to be evicted. Jews living in Palestine would live under the PA as Palestinians & non-Jews in Israel would be Israeli. There is no need for ethnic cleansing. Of course, if anyone can document that properties have been stolen (in the last 60 years), reparations must be made. Firm borders, a shared capitol in Jerusalem, justice, reconcilliation, joint economic interests... peace.
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Gill.,
Wednesday Jul 08, 2009
shalom Petra, really interesting also quality comments here but no room to properly swap ideas. can't jp give us a better format? i used to blog on cif but stopped because disgusted, mainly the moderation as if by spiteful partisan teenagers. At least here if "scumbags" (?remember) like shusterian attack our mods will allow response. best way to deal with weirdo's is let them speak, but let us answer if we want to.
sorry for off topic and moan but lots of us miss swapping our opinions in fair to everybody conditions with quality writers.
Best. Gill.
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Jaime XMarrano Barcelona,
Wednesday Jul 08, 2009
Obama didn't make much of an impression on the Russian crowds (they too must have used their gut feelings) They thought that he was trying too hard to manipulate the public.Russians are not into charisma.When asked by a Russian newspaper what they expected to come out of Obama's visit to Russia.Most replied TRAFFIC JAMS
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Phil USA,
Wednesday Jul 08, 2009
What the author of the article doesn't understand is that behavior is a more accurate indicator of intentions than words. Obama's actions have not been friendly to Israel. First, he refused to visit Israel on his 2 middle east trips. Scond, Obama (and his fellow leftists) are blaming Israel and the settlements for the lack of peace. Evidently, Obama and his J Street and Peace Now groupies have been hibernating for the past few years as they don't seem to remember when Israel totally ended the Gaza occupation; 10000 rockets launched against Sderot aand other parts of Israel.
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Roddy Frankel,
Thursday Jul 09, 2009
To Jen (#26): Before Jews can live under the PA government, official anti-Jewish discrimination must first be eliminated. Case in point, official PA discrimination against Jewish land purchases. From the article "Can Arabs Buy Land in Israel?" by Alexander Safian, Middle East Quarterly, November 1997: "The Palestinian Authority's justice minister, Freih Abu Meddein, announced in early May 1997 that Palestinians who sell land to Jews will face the death penalty..." (Agence France Presse, May 5, 1997) This doesn't sound like a recipe for peaceful coexistence, does it, Jen?
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Petra, Bat Yam,
Sunday Jul 12, 2009
Just to let everyone know that I was traveling and got around to reading the comments only now. -- Jaime, well, considering how many of the Russian-Israelis feel about Obama, the Russian Russians seems to be quite positive...
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Jen USA,
Monday Jul 13, 2009
Roddy #30, All official discrimination would need to be eliminated. And, yes, sadly there is official discrimination, on both sides. This could be accomplished through... negotiation & diplomacy. There, I said the two words that Israelis & Palestinians seem to have such a hard time saying. It seems that both parties will need to be dragged to the table, kicking & screaming, like a couple of three year olds mid-tantrum. The adults (Egypt, the US, Turkey, Jordan) will need to stay in the room to keep discipline. But we all know that if you spare the rod... (It sounds harsh, but come on!)
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Joseph Lessard, USA,
Tuesday Aug 04, 2009
Obama is not just anti-Israel--he is also anti-America. He is mostly anti-white, anti-capitalist, anti-Christian, and anti-conservative. So he despises about 70% of all americans. He is aiding communist despots in Iran, Columbia, Palestine, and around the globe. He also despises Israel. I cannot believe we were dumb enough in this country to elect a fraud like this. However, it is not the fault of most americans. The media in this coutry hates americ as well. They lied to bring down President Bush--and they lied to bring us Usurper Obama. All we can do now is pray to G-d for deliverance.
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Jen USA,
Wednesday Aug 05, 2009
Joseph Lessard....Are you serious?Off your meds? Where do you get your ideas...white supremacist websites? Your delusions are common on those sites. According to you, Obama is Stalin & the media are his puppets. Are you a birther, too? Most of the racists have used that red herring. If you had actually read any of Obama's writings (autobiographical, academic & legal) or if you review his legislative record, you would see that you are wrong on all counts. He is making Israel a priority because it is in both Israel's & our national interest. He is dealing with a huge mess left by Bush Inc..
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Joseph Lessard,
Thursday Aug 13, 2009
Jen, your response is typical liberal. If I read white supremacist websites I would hate my wife who is black--and oh that would include both my sons. Liberals cannot take the heat when the shoe is on the other foot. They called Bush a nazi and hung him in effigy. Now if anyone disagrees with their Messiah, created by media manipulation, they call them names such as racist nazis. Facts never matter. Look at Obama's actions. he calls a white cop stupid for arresting his un-hinged buddy--without knowing the facts. All this man's actions scream anti-American. Stop drinking the media Koolaide Jen.
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Jen USA,
Saturday Aug 15, 2009
Joseph...I am a moderate. I didn't like bush but didn't demonize him either. I also don't appreciate your insinuation that I am "guilty" of Obama worship, or whatever the right wing nut jobs are calling it. Sorry if I hurt your feelings but if you look at the hate-group websites... you sound like them. Now, Prof. Gates should have held his tongue but the police officer (not "cop") shouldn't have arrested the man. Put yourself in either of their shoes. I doubt either of us would have behaved the way they did. The entire event was stupid. BTW: Questioning "authority" is very, very American!
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Joseph Lessard,
Saturday Aug 15, 2009
Jen, no feelings hurt here; I have a thick skin. I don't read white supremacist sites. My ideas come from what I see in life. Most are from the founding fathers. I once was liberal minded, but have become more conservative with age. What I detest is the modus operandi of the left. They identify their oponent--then they label them and name call. If you disagree with them or great leader you are a right wing nut job. If you still disagree you must be a racist. I agreed with Bush about 70% of the time. With Obama that's down to about 30%. The media is key in dividing Americans. They disgust me.
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Jen USA,
Tuesday Aug 18, 2009
Joseph, I detest the way both the left & right have talking points & slick little phrases to sum up subjects that are, in fact, very complex. Rove was the master of this.You can usually tell who has been brainwashed by the spinmasters because they resort to insults and innuendo.I'm relieved that you don't read white supremacist websites...perhaps, you are just watching Fox News or listening to Rush? I distrust any media outlet that has a set political agenda.Don't you? Your accusations that Obama was anti-(whatever) were the same divisive "name-calling" behaviors of which you accuse liberals.
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