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Monday Apr 14, 2008
The Sephardi Perspective: The Kitniyot debate: between tradition and unity Posted by Ashley Perry (Perez)
Comments: 45
At no other time of the year is there such seeming distinction between Ashkenazim and Sephardim. There are few customs - and it is only a custom - which are belittled by even respectable Ashkenazi authorities as the laws of kitniyot on Pessah. Rabbenu Yeruham ben Meshullam (Provence, 14th century) said "those accustomed to not eating rice and various kinds of cooked kitniyot on Pessah abide by a stupid custom which makes it harder on themselves (to observe and enjoy the festival) and I have no idea why they do so". Rav Yaaqov ben Asher rejected the custom, saying "it is an excessive restriction and improper". Rav Zvi Hirsch Ashkenazi known as "Zvi the Wise One" (1660-1718) and his son Rabbi Yaaqov Amdan (1697-1776) opposed the custom with all their might and wanted to eliminate it. They called it "a restriction that has no rhyme or reason for ever existing". Rav Shmuel of Falaise (in the 13th century), supported the custom but nevertheless admits that this custom comes from a mistake and prohibits things that had been permitted. No one really knows where this custom originated and many of its references are just to state that it was followed, without too much stringency to the forcefulness of its application. Of course as we know, most Sephardim do not hold by this custom at all. Kitniyot are frequently translated as legumes, aside from peas and peanuts, they are not legumes. And some legumes, like alfalfa leaves which can be used for salad, are allowed to be used on Pessah. The problem arrives when people associate kitniyot with outright hamezt, which obviously no Jew may eat during Pessah. I have often seen many Ashkenazi Jews recoil when seeing a Jew eating humous on Pessah and will not even sit at the same table with them. Firstly, they are missing the point of Pessah and secondly they are ignoring a very serious ruling about unity. Rav Ovadia Yosef (Teshuvot Yechaveh Daat 5:32) rules that an Ashkenazi Jew may eat non-kitniyot food at a Sephardi Jew's home on Pesach. He does not require special utensils that have not been used for kitniyot for the Ashkenazi guest. He bases his opinion on a similar ruling of the Rama (Orach Chaim 453:1), the main decisor for Ashkenazim who states "It is obvious that if kitniyot fell into food during Pessach, they do not render the food forbidden post facto." Sadly many observant Ashkenazim will not visit the homes of Sephardim during Pessah because of these unnecessary strictures. Pessah, amongst certain Ashkenazim, seems to be an occasion where many will seek to bid to outdo the next on their strictures. Some won't eat fruit because of the chemicals that were used to grow them. Some will only eat Maza in a bag lest some liquid spill and make it 'rise'. I have even heard of some Jews who will not spit during Pessah just in case the spittle should land on Maza and make it rise. This law which appears to have such little basis strangely has become a symbol of disunity and overt stringency. What is and isn't kitniyot today seems to depend on who you ask. Many rabbis allow certain types of foods and oils, while others don't. The exact product list of what falls under the rubric of this prohibition is one that is subject to debate and discussion, and is often a matter of regional agriculture. The Sha'arei Teshuva (Rav Chaim Mordechai Margoliyot) cites a few interesting examples of foods that were almost considered to be kitniyot, but escaped from being forbidden. His first example is coffee, which came with the fear that there were other grains mixed in among the beans. While he claims that coffee is allowed, he rules that one should roast the beans before Pessach to remove any such worries (and thus it would seem that today's processed coffees are not a problem at all). Tea presented a more intriguing issue. Apparently, dishonest merchants would use tea leaves, then dry them and sell them again. While this practice was despicable enough, it created the fear that they had originally been used with chametz and thus perhaps were problematic. The Sha'arei Teshuva thus advises against using these leaves, although he does note that teas bought from major retailers do not have this problem. Potatoes should have been one of the first to go, since they are used to make a flour that could be confused with wheat flour (unlike, for example, peas). The potato only survives today as it was unknown to those who created the kitniyot list and has become such a staple for so many. There are some strange linguistic reasons that some foods have been added to kitniyot and declared forbidden. Many don't eat green beans because green beans sound like dried beans. Corn was unknown to our sages. It is a 'New World' crop, but the Indo-European word for bread or wheat and the Yiddish word for rye is Korn and lest people get mixed up. I am sure that the vast majority of people who entertain these strictures do not even know most of the above facts. So when they are invited to partake of a meal with a Jew who does not follow the kitniyot stricture, they will excuse themselves. This is halachically very problematic and preventing someone from hahnasat orahim on this basis is foolhardy to say the least. Many people talk of unity and the need to rise above our historical traditions and become one people again. There are organizations which are attempting to do just that, like Machon Shilo. Last year, the beth din (religious court) of Machon Shilo, issued a religious ruling permitting all Jews in the Land of Israel to consume Kitniyot during the Pessah holiday. The signatories to this ruling were Rav David Bar-Hayim, Rav Yehoshua Buch, and Rav Chaim Wasserman, all of Jerusalem. "This was a localized custom in parts of Germany, which later moved eastwards to Poland and Russia with the waves of Jewish emigration", states Rav Bar-Hayim, Head of Machon Shilo, a Talmudic research institute, and president of the rabbinical court. "The explanations offered for the custom are unconvincing. You don't find wheat in rice today. It was never accepted by Jews worldwide. Whatever the origin of the custom, Ashkenazi Jewish commentators have struggled to find good reasons for the ban. "We learn from the Mishnah and the Talmud that customs are connected to a particular place. When one moves permanently to another locality, one is to adopt the local custom," explains Rav Bar-Hayim. "The custom of abstaining from eating Kitniyot during Pessah has never been the prevailing practice among all Jews in Eretz Yisrael, and is therefore not binding upon Jews living in Israel. A person may choose to continue adhering to his custom, but no one has the right to force his custom on others." This raises a very good point. As I mentioned in my last article, the minhag of Eretz Yisrael is Sephardi and thus the practice of refraining from kitniyot never had any traditional precedence here. However, the bottom line is put very nicely by Rabbi Bar-Hayim. Customs and traditions are important aspects of our familial history, whether they have a basis or not. They are an important element in the understanding of who we are as a people and the experiences that we have faced. Customs like kitniyot should not be enforced on other people and we should not look down on those who do not have our custom or have chosen not to follow it. This doesn't mean that it should be a free-for-all and we should pick and choose the customs which suits us best. We should look at those customs that only detract from the essence of the original halacha and see whether they have a firm basis or not. Customs should not be used to divide the Jewish people and following any particular custom should absolutely not be used as a barrier between Jews. If so, then we will become a people who care more about the minutiae of custom than we do unity.
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Proud Sephardi - USA,
Monday Apr 14, 2008
You present a very important subject here. The minor issue is indeed 'Kitniyot' - the overarching issue is stricture for its own sake. Overzealous stricture leads to disunity because the notion of 'I'm a better Jew because I am more strict than you' creates a religion that becomes a competition with each other, rather than adhering to what G-d wants.
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Mark,
Tuesday Apr 15, 2008
Interesting. My wife was born Ashkenazi and loves when Pesah comes as she feels free from the "kitniyot" restriction. She in fact is one of its greatest ctitics. When we were engaged the Rabbi she consulted stated that she could not eat kitniyot while attending a seder at my parent's house -- which means she could not eat much. Naturally, her parents will not eat in our hosue on Pesah. I was told that Sephardic students attending Ashkenazi yeshivoth are told that the Sephardim start saying selihoth 20 days earlier because they eat kitniyot on Pesah. Funny.
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Eli B. - Brooklyn, NY,
Tuesday Apr 15, 2008
Well said, if uncontroversial, methinks. I'm glad some work is being done for unity in Israel, and hope that the effort could be extended abroad as well...
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Yitzhaq Agadi, Great Neck, NY,
Tuesday Apr 15, 2008
It's our minhag to recite the "shelo asani Ashkenazi" prayer this time of year :-)
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Jason B,
Tuesday Apr 15, 2008
Kitniyot laws are another example of whats gone horribly wrong with our beautiful religion.
H'B'Hu gave us all individually a set of laws at mount sinai. a code of practice to follow, and keep for ourselves. however, i have great problems with rabbinic law that contradicts halacha. todays judaism is so far removed from what should be practised, are we still entitled to call ourselves jewish. lets take just one example, the laws of kashrut!
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Jason B,
Tuesday Apr 15, 2008
when H'B'Hu gave us the law concerning "NOT boiling a kid in its mothers milk" ( a pagan religious practice prevelant at the time) was it a commandment to go out and buy seperate plates, cutlery, cookware, and to wait 3 hours between eating meat and milk, and not having milk products with chicken ( a different class of food entirely). OR was it more to do with, not being cruel to animals, and not taking part in pagan rituals!
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Jason B,
Tuesday Apr 15, 2008
in which case, jews should work through the easter weekend and xmas, and more importantly, should ensure that animals in the food chain are treated in a good fashion with good standards of living. rather than just concentrating on shechita and point of death welfare.
but back to kitniyot. jewish unity is something that i dont believe will happen in the current climate. i myself am orthodox, however when i speak to other orthodox jews, they refuse to accept reform, liberal, conservative...etc..etc... why?
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Jason B,
Tuesday Apr 15, 2008
in truth i dont know the answer. i have seen liberal jews fastidiously keep pesach, to the point of not putting kiechal in their chicken soup, and yet one seder night i was in a strictly orthodox house and found kitniyot salad dressing served at the meal? the only way to achieve jewish unity is to go back to a time when we accept the torah with the trueness of spirit that we al had at mount sinai. H'B'hu states clearly we were all there at the time it was given, why? it seems a strange thing to tell people born thousands of years later.
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Jason B,
Tuesday Apr 15, 2008
unless the message is more obvious but more difficult to accept. rabbinic law and some mishnaic law was needed to get the jewish people through some difficult times. some of those times, i hope, are now gone forever. certainly the greek and roman empires are gone like dust in the wind. but unlike dust in the wind. some of our needless traditions are still being kept.
would you really confuse chicken and beef? (the reason why we cant eat chicken and milk together) after all, whose had a really good tuna steak lately!
kitniyot? clearly there are much bigger issues to worry about here!
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Ariel, Eretz Yisrael,
Tuesday Apr 15, 2008
Very nice. Read more about common sense Torah Judaism at www.machonshilo.org.
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Moshe Katz,
Tuesday Apr 15, 2008
Kol HaKavod to HaRav David Bar-Hayim and his beth din. I highly recommend his website which contains his teachings at www.machonshilo.org
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Yudie Ramat Beit Shemesh,
Tuesday Apr 15, 2008
I'd rather NOT eat kitnoyot than have to do 40 days of selichos.
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James, New York,
Tuesday Apr 15, 2008
Kitniyos are not forbidden, but are stored in the same bags as people store flour and grains. Majority of the Jews would not bother with a delicate task of checking every pea before they cook. The sephardim check the rice grains / kitniyos before selling them as kosher lePesach, and it's proper to check again before cooking. Who wants to kill the festival on this mundane task? Potato is not a seed, by no means can be kitniyos.
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Eli B. - Brooklyn, NY,
Tuesday Apr 15, 2008
Likewise Yudie, I like the fact that the Sephardic conception of hazara bitshuva does not dwell on guilt but rather on self-improvement.
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Joe Feld London,
Tuesday Apr 15, 2008
Kitniot is only one extra stringency. Many also do not eat 'gebrokt' or food made with matzah meal in case its turns into Chometz. Although the Chofetz Chaim in Mishnah Brurah said he allowed his family to 'brok' as part of simchas yom tov, he personally didn't, although the Vilna Gaon did. Iin some places Bar Mitzvah boys take on wearing both types of Tephillin, a custoim once left to Gedolei HaDor. What's important is that people understand the difference between basic Halachah and various levels of stringencies that are not universal.
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Mark,
Tuesday Apr 15, 2008
#12 Yudie - Your response exemplifies the stricture over substance problem that permeates our religion as currently practiced. 1st, we Sephardim do not "have to do 40 days of selichos." It is a minhag. Not everyone is present all 40 days and we do not criticize each other for not showing up compulsively. 2nd, compare kitniyot vs. Selihoth: Kitniyot are allowed to be eaten under halakha (see masecheth Pesahim where the opinion forbidding rice is clearly rejected) refraining from which has no spiritual benefit; Selihoth are extra penitence designed to assist in beseeching the Creator for mercy.
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Sherlock Holmes, London,
Tuesday Apr 15, 2008
#13 James and the potato. A potato may not be a seed, but it does produce a flour that might be confused with chometzdik flour. Had the potato been known when the stringency of kitnios was introduced, it might well have been seen as a problem.
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Aryeh,
Tuesday Apr 15, 2008
1. Rav Ovadia writes that "happy is he who will smash this custom on a rock"
2. The Gemara relates that the customary foods for Shulchan Orech are rice and lentils.
3. The view of Sephardim is supported in the Shulchan Aurch.
4. There is a tradition in Jerusalem for Sephardim NOT to eat rice at all as a kernel of wheat was once found in cooked rice.
5. The Syrian custom is to start checking the rice at Channuka: a major hiddur and kiddush Hashem.
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Ephraim, Israel,
Tuesday Apr 15, 2008
It is quite surprising that a blog so dedicated to preserving unity among the Jewish people has not stopped bashing a particular group, who are known for steadfastly holding on to their tradition. Is this what unity is all about?
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Sergio - Israel,
Wednesday Apr 16, 2008
Meantime, I'll enjoy my ROASTED GOAT at the Seder, as Italian Jews have been doing for MORE THAN TWO THOUSAND YEARS, and even the Bavlim - as per Ghemarah - could not say no to them;
my mazza' LASAGNAS (can you imagine the conniption some might have seeing it?) and the fantastic DAYENU (a soup that seems to have been created 2300 years ago in Rome to annoy Chabadnikim: meat broth with broken mazzà inside);
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Sergio - Israel,
Wednesday Apr 16, 2008
I'll also anjoy...
my THICK AND SOFT mazzòt;
rice and spinach as maror (which even the Rama' says it is the TRADITIONAL MAROR) which drive Ashkenazim, Moroccans and followers of the Ben ISh Chai NUTS;
MARAQ ADASHIM (which Rabbi Yehudah was "MEHUDAR LEEKHOL BEFESACH, and I am ceratinly not holier than he!) which is SOOOO FORBIDDEN by all the "kitnyos freaks"...
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Motti Bennett,
Wednesday Apr 16, 2008
How about the equally absurd rules regarding Egg Matzot. However the stricture that follows is insane. It states that Egg matzot may only be eated by the elderly and the ill. Egg matzah is either Kosher for Passover and is permissible to eat as long as not using it as official motzi bread, or it is totally Chametz based on some idiotiic rabbinic explanation thaty has never been explained to my satisfaction.Nor anyone I know's satisfactio.It is absurd on its face and just causes difficulty for thoughtful people.
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Rabbi, Modiin,
Wednesday Apr 16, 2008
The son of Hacham Zvi was Rabbi Jacob Emden (not Amdan), also known as the Yavetz.
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levi Isreal,
Wednesday Apr 16, 2008
"As I mentioned in my last article, the minhag of Eretz Yisrael is Sephardi" ????
says who. that is just the most ridcules statment i have ever heard.
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Shahar, Jerusalem,
Wednesday Apr 16, 2008
You call this unity?!
Pesach is the time of year when strictures may *not* be scoffed at. Which is Halacha, unlike your empty rhetoric:
"Firstly, they are missing the point of Pessah and secondly they are ignoring a very serious ruling about unity."
Which point is this? And which ruling about unity?
If this is what you call unifying, we're better of apart.
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James, New York,
Wednesday Apr 16, 2008
#17 Sherlock Holmes, sorry to disagree. Nuts can also be crashed into substance like flour, but nobody forbade nuts, as they are fruit of a tree. Crashed sugar and salt are also as white as flour. Kitniyos are forbidded for the reason of mixing with grains in bags, not because someone can make flour out of them. Nobody in their right mind made flour (starch) out of potatos until very recently (last 200 yrs) or store them in the same bags as grains. People do not make potato starch at a mill and it requires a sound technological process.
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James, New York,
Wednesday Apr 16, 2008
#22 Motti Hametz is a product of a well defined chemical reaction which occurrs in wheat once it gets exposed to water for amount of time very close to the rabbinic 18 minutes.
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Harry Carrie,
Wednesday Apr 16, 2008
I'd love to see the Issur of Kitniyot disappear. Unfortunately, Minhag Yisrael Halacha and contrary to all the one-sided Rabbinic quotes given here, there are plenty on the other side justifying the foundations for this Minhag, based on actual occurrences. Unfortunately, it did get out of hand. Personally, I will not add on to the issurim as long as there's a reputable Ashkenazi opinion to back me up. Examples are cottonseed oil and quinoa. I wish there were some serious Rabbanim issuing retractions to other things but I know not to hold my breath.
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S Judah,
Wednesday Apr 16, 2008
24 - The correct minhag of Israel is Sephardi.
This is based on the Shulchan Aruch. There are various reasons for this. They need to studied to be understood.
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Sherlock Holmes,
Wednesday Apr 16, 2008
Reply to #22. The laws of how the five grains become chometz is based on how long it is in contact with water. Egg matza uses apple juice and there are several opinions on how long it takes for grain to become chometz when mixed with apple juice as opposed to water. This is why many people avoid egg matza.
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Yossi London,
Wednesday Apr 16, 2008
'The Minhag of Eretz Yisrael is Sephardi'. possibly the author meant the Ivrit pronunciation is based on Sephardit. Halachically the concept of Minhag haMakom barely applies in most places today. We tend to follow Minhag Avoseinu rather than Minhag haMakom because so many Jews had to move from place to place during the period from 1848 to 1950. From where I live in Golders green London, I can attend shuls with about a dozen different minhagim, everything from Franfurt-am-Main to Baghdad.
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Mark,
Wednesday Apr 16, 2008
Ephraim #19 - Bashing or challenging? The terms "ahdut" and "unity" should not be used as surrogates for silencing dissent or challenging a practice. Ahsley never said the keepers of the no-kitniyot tradition are mean, evil, sinners, or stupid. He is however raising a challenge to it. With your standard, no critical thinking is allowed, which means that we as a people would move in a misguided direction perpertually with no self analysis. Unity does not mean that there can be no disagreement or criticism.
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Mark,
Wednesday Apr 16, 2008
Levi #24 - If you read Ashleys "last article" then you will see "says who" - not that you have to agree with it.
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Shalom, New Jersey,
Thursday Apr 17, 2008
I remember, not so long ago, purchasing peanut oil with an OU-P on it. Sometime in the past ten years, peanut oil became kitnios. Why did this happen?
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Proud Sephardi - USA,
Thursday Apr 17, 2008
To James - Comment #26. I'm pretty sure that many Ashkenazim do NOT eat peanuts on Pessah at all. This has nothing to do with being able to crush them into flour. They do not eat legumes - beans, peas, lentils and PEANUTS. I guess someone forgot to tell Ashkenazim that none of these are wheat derivatives, nor can any of these be confused with wheat. Moreover, they have never been stored with wheat. This is just another crazy stricture invented by Ashkenazim.
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Debra USA,
Thursday Apr 17, 2008
What does HaShem says in the Tenack????
No yeast, right??? Keep driving yourselves nuts with man made religion. As for me and my house we choose to follow His word and His only! No man made rule is above His, period! Tenach Judaism all the way!!!
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Mark,
Friday Apr 18, 2008
Debra #36 - The Saducees and Keraites (sp?) wend down that path in the past. Where are they today? I know of no Saducees and few Keraites.
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Debra,
Wednesday Apr 23, 2008
To #37 And your point being???? HaShem is very serious in the Tenach about adding to it and about taking away from it.
Doing the right thing usually involves not following the crowd. The Neviim were the minority and most of the people were against them and even kill some of them.
I rather be found among them than among the crowd. As the saying goes, many are called but only a few are chosen!
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Proud Sephardi - USA,
Wednesday Apr 23, 2008
To #38. If you don't understand #37's point, then you don't understand much. What Mark is saying is simple: Those who have adhered to just literal understandings of Tanach - and only literal - have not lasted through the ages. If we are to understand the Tanach literally, as you suggest, then we would never know how to Kasher a cow (no instruction whatsoever is contained in the Tanach for the precise method for ritual slaughter). We would also believe that the world is 5769 years old. Do you believe that? Adapting to modernity is what Judaism is supposed to be about.
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Naomi,
Friday Apr 25, 2008
We were once told the traditional charosis we had been asked by others to prepare for the communal dinner would not be allowed. ALMONDS and PISTACHIOS were the problem! I asked why? Walnuts are permitted! I am still waiting three years later for an explanation. I also contacted the Webbe Rebbe and was told that I needed to adjust to the more strict interpretation; again though no Talmudic explanation. We have returned to our own Seder. Roast spring herb stuffed lamb, sweet and sour salmon, rice with pine nuts, roast vegetables, marinated asparagus, etc. Read it and weep you silly wabbits!
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Debra USA,
Tuesday Apr 29, 2008
To #39 - First of all my comment was directed to #37 and not to you. Who are you to answer for him? Secondly, based on you comment, the one that doesn't understand much is you. Have you read the Tenach? it does say how to kill the animal for sacrifices.
Thirdly, If HaShem says in the Tenach that the world is that many years old, it must be so. After all, everything else that He says there has turned out to be true, hasn't it??? And by all means I take His word anytime over flawed "scientific" theories that have not been proven beyond reasonable doubt.
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Proud Sephardi - USA,
Tuesday Apr 29, 2008
To #41: When you write on a public blog, then your ideas become public domain for all to see and respond to. I didn't realize I violated a sacred rule. I was merely adding to the discussion. To your point - I said ritual slaughter for eating - the process of Kashering. There is no instruction whatsoever in the Tanach for cutting the animal in the right place to make it Kasher. Please point me to a specific instruction other than "as I commanded you". Cont'd on next.
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Proud Sephardi - USA,
Tuesday Apr 29, 2008
Cont'd from previous: Similarly, what is the definition of unleavened bread? It never says anything more than that in the Tanach. I'm actually quite surprised at your steadfast belief in what something says vs. scientific experimentation and research. I guess the dinosaurs didn't really live 100 million years ago. They were around maybe 5000 years ago and were on Noah's ark?
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Debra,
Wednesday Apr 30, 2008
Debra at Post #41 - Proud Sephardi's response is on the money. Any student of history could have responded to your "challenge." As an aside, it is Tanach, not "Tenach." Regardless, there are simply no directions in the "Tenach" as to the specifications for most ritual articles and observances, be they sisith, tephillin, shabbath, massah, sukkoth, yom kippur, etc. For example, without the oral law, we simply have to guess as to what is meant by "afflicting" oneself on Yom Kippur. The Talmud explains what is meant, abstaining from eating, bathing, etc.
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Yehudha,
Wednesday Jun 04, 2008
It makes no sense what so ever to accept the idea that the written tora is from God while denying the oral law is. How do you know the Tanakh is divine if not from oral tradition?
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