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Sunday Jan 11, 2009
Rosner's Domain: Will Israel survive this article?Posted by SHMUEL ROSNER
Comments: 83 Updated!!! Election 2009: Rosner's Poll Trend "Can Israel Survive its Assault on Gaza?" - what a provocative headline! But in service of what? The sensationalism in this Time article by Tim McGirk is ultimately meant to advance the overtired we-need-a-two-state-solution mantra. Not that there's anything wrong with believing in the feasibility or desirability of a two-state solution, as long as one doesn't lose touch with reality and acknowledges the actual steps needed to achieve this goal. However, when Time reporters and editors choose to focus on Israel's "survivability" in covering the Gaza situation, chances are they merely mean to provoke rather than engage in sober and productive analysis: Israel's Defense Minister, Ehud Barak, has promised a "war to the bitter end." But after 60 years of struggle to defend their existence against foreign threats and enemies within, many Israelis may be wondering Where does that end lie?" The threat posed by Hamas is only the most immediate of the many interlocking challenges facing Israel, some of which cast dark shadows over the long-term viability of a democratic Jewish state. Did McGirk actually ask "many Israelis" what they think, or did he simply project his own musings onto the minds of an unspecified multitude? Here's more of McGirk's version of reality: Israelis will have to choose between living with an independent Palestinian state or watching Jews become a minority in their own land. False dilemma aside, Israelis have already made their choice. The official policy of the Israeli government favors a two-state solution, as does the majority Israeli opinion. Could McGirk be genuinely oblivious of these facts? Much further down in the article we read what seems at odds with the previous statement: This tectonic shift in demographics is what scared even hawkish Israelis like former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon into abandoning the biblical dreams of a Greater Israel stretching all the way from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean. As Olmert recently warned, "If we are determined to preserve the Jewish and democratic character of the state of Israel, we must inevitably relinquish, with great pain, parts of our homeland." In other words, if Israelis cling to the West Bank and Gaza, as many religious Zionists insist, Jews will find themselves a shrinking minority in their own state. So by McGirk's own admission, the choice, right or wrong, has been made. Why make it seem as if the main obstacle to a sustainable peace lies in Israel's territorial ambitions? ("Sustainable" is now a mandatory word for any discussion regarding Mideast affairs-as sanctioned by Secretary Rice). This is no innocent contradiction: Time has an agenda to sell - and insinuating that the ball is in Israel's court is the only way to sell it: Israel's leaders need to recognize that if Hamas cannot be beaten militarily, then it must be engaged politically. That means accepting the idea of dealing with some kind of Palestinian unity government that includes Hamas. A coalition between Hamas and Abbas is essential for the future of a Palestinian state and for moderating Hamas' extremism. Hamas, which 18 months ago chased Abbas' men from Gaza, says it will pair up with Abbas if he, along with the international community, recognizes that the Islamic militants legitimately came to power in the January 2006 elections. Israelis rightly view such claims with skepticism, and yet all Palestinians and their Arab backers reject the current situation, where the meager land set aside for a future state is chopped into two, Gaza and the West Bank, ruled by rivals. The idea of engaging Hamas is not new, and certain points could be made in its favor. The argument that including Hamas in the political process would tame its radical ideology was at the root of President Bush's controversial decision to support Hamas's inclusion in Palestinian elections. The White House leaned heavily on Ariel Sharon to get his approval. Was it a mistake? The President doesn't think so. He still believes, or so he says, that in the long run the choice must be made by Palestinians themselves. In the short run, though, the inclusion of Hamas in the political process brought little else except devastation: the legitimicy resulting from electoral victory, the coup in Gaza, the undermining of President Abbas and his Fatah allies, etc. Now Time's distinguished intelligentsia, whose political compass ironically tends to point to the polar opposite of Bush's positions, are trying to convince us that engaging Hamas is still the way to go. Why would it be worth trying again? The article doesn't say, but it ends with this prescriptive paragraph: Israel eventually will have to pull back to the 1967 borders and dismantle many of the settlements on the Palestinian side, no matter how loudly its ultra-religious parties protest. Only then will the Palestinians and the other Arab states agree to a durable peace. It's as simple as that. The former editor (and my former editor) at Haaretz, Hanoch Marmari, once said: [The Israeli-Palestinian conflict] has created a real crisis of values for journalism. I believe I can compress the enormous volume of coverage and comment into four cardinal sins: obsessiveness, prejudice, condescension and ignorance. This Time article, I'm afraid, is guilty of them all. Crossposting: Contentions.
1 | L.S.Bernstein, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
In the War of Independence we fought the 7 Arab States. Now we are fighting the whole world. People do not realize that this is the Second War of Independence.!!!
The Muslim & Christian world R sitting high in the galleries of the arena stadium, like the ancient Romans, watching the Jews thrown to the lions. Panem et circense. The world is impatient for the Jews to disappear.
The USA too is now over 20% muslim, & is hedged by South America & its population explosion.
When we are gone - who will be your scapegoat ? who will UNWRA feed ? Will you eat each other ?
remember the WH of Babylon
2 | John Williams Ogden Utah, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
Will Israeli's leaders survive Nuremberg would be a better question and not much needs to be changed
The International Military Tribunal in Nuremberg (1945-46).
* Count One - The Common Plan or Conspiracy to wage an aggressive war in violation of international law or treaties;
* Count Two - Planning, preparation, or waging an aggressive war;
* Count Three - War Crimes violations of the international rules of war (mistreatment of prisoners of war or civilian populations, the plunder of private property and the destruction of towns and cities without military justification);
3 | Alan Boardman Brisbane Australia, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
anyone who believes that a withdrawal to pre 1967 borders will bring peace is dreaming. Muslims will only be satisfied when not one square meter of Jewish homeland exists. Oh please let history teach us that this is a fact. Consequently, Israel should not relinquish anything at all. It should in fact pursue the present war until it reoccupies Gaza). It's strange how terrorists can launch attacks year after year into Isreal and not one protest in the west. When Israel takes action to defend itself (after supreme toleration of the intolerable) every one cries fowl, now that's what I call evil.
4 | bannister USA, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
Israel will not survive the use of WMD by Terror.
Write an article describing your scenario for preventing all your enemies from ever getting and using them on you? Terror with WMD does you in and cannot be deterred.
What you do today only inspires them to hit you at the earliest opportunity.
Remember Time favors innovation.
5 | Rob, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
L.S. Bernstein. Your claim that the U.S. is 20% Muslim is false. According to latest U.S. census figures as well as the American Jewish Committee's estimates, the U.S. is at most 2% Muslim and more likely less than 1% Muslim with about 2.8 million within the U.S.
6 | L.S.Bernstein, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
to Rob 5 - thank you, Rob, so the usa has hope.
BTW - it is INCREDIBLE, nobody, but nobody that I talk to among my Israeli Native friends and acquaintances seems to realize that Cast Lead is taken from the Children`s Hanukka song that we learn from Kindergarten, DODI NATAN SEVIVON LI, SEVIVON ME`OFERET YETZUKAH,
My uncle gave me a dreidle, a dreidle from cast lead.
And you know about the four letters on the facets of the dreidle ...
remember the Wh of Babylon
7 | Declan Montgomery Ireland, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
By it's OWN HAND Israel has lost the moral highground. By it's OWN ACTIONS Israel EARNS the disgust of the World. You cannot act IMMORALLY and expect the world to condone it. Accuse others as much as you like of anti-semitism; but what the world sees clearly is state sponsored terror visited on the Palestinians, theft of land, imprisonment & collective punishment of 1.5 million people, nearly 900 dead and 3000+ injured. Don't be surprised that the World reacts to these crimes by boycott & embassy closures. Israel brings this on itself. Noone but Israel is to blame.
8 | Abbi Israel, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
This is the funniest line of the whole article: "Israel eventually will have to pull back to the 1967 borders and dismantle many of the settlements on the Palestinian side, no matter how loudly its ultra-religious parties protest. "
The ultra religious parties in Israel couldn't care less about the territories! Why do ignorant foreign journalists conflate right with religious and insist that our "extremist" Israeli right wing parties are holding peace hostage. Kadima is a moderate/dovish party that's been in power for years now.
9 | Abbi Israel, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
Also, Shmuel, this desperately needs analysis, particularly at the end where the guy practically has his hands in the air saying "Hey dude, I'm not an anti-Semite!" http://video.nytimes.com/video/2009/01/09/opinion/1231544842105/bloggingheads-israel-s-end.html
10 | shlomo bin Yatiz, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
Hey,
Do you actually believe your own lies? or did the state dept actually convinced you that it was Hamas Fault. ever since the 2005 cease fire deal and Israel has done nothing but to break this deal, Hamas (you won't believe this) actually arrested who tries to launch rockets on Israel in an attempt to secure the cease fire, but Israel weren't contempt they starved the gazans and cut off their fuel, medicine and food supply, killed many Hamas militants during the cease fire. when the cease fire agreement expired Hamas has to choose die of hunger or die fighting for freedom and they choose
11 | Alan Schleider, Neve Daniel, Israel, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
JOHN WILLIAMS, #2 (how appropriate) IS FULL OF HOT AIR. Countering, point by point: Count 1 - There is no such treaty in existence to violate. Count 2 - This is a DEFENSIVE WAR, NOT AN AGRESSIVE WAR. Count #3 - There is PLENTY OF MILITARY JUSTIFICTION to attack terrorists hiding behind the skirts of innocents; and an equal amount of justifacation to attack supposed innocents who happen to allow terrorists to hide behind their skirts.
Mr Williams, keep your bluster for the weather on the ski slopes in Utah (amazing how someone living is such a beautiful place can have such ugly thoughts.)
12 | Declan Montgomery Ireland, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
Given the high emotion that this conflict engenders, it is hard to say something that doesn't immediately cause offence or can be misinterpeted. But as one person I want to appeal to the people of Israel. What you are doing is wrong and I am angry because of that. But I am also very sad, because I don't think you see the harm you do to yourself - The anger, the rage,the accusations of anti-semitism, the claim that no-one understands- all these point to psychological & emotional damage. I don't want Israel to suffer this as much as I don't want Palestinians to suffer.
13 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
You have to be delusional to think the two-state solution will work. All evidence & experience points to another failed terror state, another Gaza & even greater conflict. Anyway, the real challenge for Israel is it's large Arab minority & how to get rid of them. That's the real issue, more important than this two-state BS. It's incredible but as realistic prospects for a two-state solution can be seen as unlikely, the more the left & liberal brain-dead push the solution. They never learn from experience - Oslo failed, so let's try it again, but bigger.
14 | Gus in Corpus Christi, TX, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
To L.S. Bernstein,
It is important for you to remember that there are many American Christians, myself among them, who not only support Israels right to protect herself, but would also gladly fight right along side her. There are many of us who have not forgotten OUR origins and what it truly means to maintain independence and freedom.
15 | Michael, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
Israel is fighting a defensive war of survival in Gaza against a totalitarian Iranian proxy bent on murdering Jews. Did the allies worry about civilian casualties in WWII? The Israelis do their best to avoid civilian casualties, for many reasons.
These denunciations of Israel are irrational screeds oozing up from the depths of psychic anti-semitism. Poor souls.
16 | Debra, UK, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
Tim McGirk's article represents a widespread poor analysis of the conflict.It focuses on Israel only, fails to relate to other parties involved and has ramifications unforseen by the author. Two states solution implies arms destroyed today could be replaced legally. A UN resolution cannot change ideologies and should be ignored. If UN insists on resolutions being adhered to, perhaps they could start with 1920 San Remo resolution.
17 | Eva, Belgium, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
Israel has already lost everything: the war in 2006 with Hizbullah, the war now with Hamas, the public opinion, the international supports (one exeption of the US gov), destroyed herself by herself, lost the solidaty, the reliability, lost the self-confidence and is acting like cowards! So how would you like them to talk about a 2 state-solution if they already lost everything? Israel is obliged to admit and say that she lost the war. Soon or late Israel must accept Hamas as a legal political party and will bend down at their conditions. Israeli experts said that already!
18 | Norm Australia, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
To #21. Gosh, for a moment I thought you were talking about the USAs war in Iraq
19 | Norm, Australia, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
#2 John Williams Ogden Utah, Gosh, for a moment I thought you were talking about the USAs behaviour in Iraq
20 | Esteban, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
Thank you Gus. God bless you.
Israel we support you forever.
21 | Hofikoman, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
Shmuel is right about this Time magazine article. I would be surprised however if the Obama administration will contour its actions to this article's prescription. To pull an immediate gravity shift towards Hamas would fuel a major blowback from Obama skeptics at the very time that Obama is trying to cultivate unity in the USA to face the economic meltdown. In my town where U.S. aerospace waits in dread for Obama funding cutbacks, there would definitely be a majority who would be outraged at Obama initiating such a gravity shift.
22 | Danielle Tel Aviv, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
Who was the Time Cairo Bureau chief around Sept 11? I ask because there was that famous Time cover with Blue Magen David headlined "Where to Israel?" or some such, in which it was claimed that Arafat would prevail although he would not parade through Tel Aviv at the head of a column of tanks in the manner of traditional military victories but he would be victorious through the guerilla tactics like the suicide bomber, etc. Well, we know where that went. I subsequently made Aliyah in July 2004.
23 | Karen Flynn, Richmond, Virginia, USA, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
To my friends in Israel; the God of Israel is on your side. There is no other God. Look in your own scriptures; Jeremiah, Amos, Zephaniah, Zechariah - every one of these prophets prophesied the downfall of Gaza among certain other cities there on the coast. The sword of the Lord is in His hand, and He has said they will be destroyed that seek your destruction. I am just one of millions who pray for Israel, and I am expecting the God of Israel to direct your victory as He has planned. Remember the spy's who were sent by Moses into Canaan.
24 | Maya, Sweden, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
It's weird that people like # 7 from Ireland and other Israel demonizers don't notice that they're just rehashing Arab totalitarian propaganda, point by point. Or do they truly believe that Arab totalitarian propaganda is more trustworthy, more "right" than the narrative and actions of a democratic state? Is the world turned upside down for them? Or why does this coincidence between their opinion and that of Israel's totalitarian, bloodthirsty arch enemies not make them stop and think? Might they be driven by the same agenda as Israel's despotic arch ennemies? - Shalom.
25 | Tom in Geneva, Switzerland, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
I agree with Debra UK on adherence to the 1920 San Remo Resolution which states: inter alia "... it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."
26 | Danielle Tel Aviv, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
Correction to my earlier posting: It was Christopher Dickey, Cairo bureau Chief on the Newsweek International cover - we used to subscribe to both before we realised they were pointless with a pro-Arab agenda as that is their mass market.
27 | Fred, Jerusalem, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
Rosner: This is your best column ever.
28 | Luis, São Paulo, Brazil, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
Today, Gaza is the grave of the dream of Peace between a democratic Israel and the Arab world.
This is not because Peace is not possible between Jews and Muslims, it's because the Israel state is not democratic anymore.
A democracy have four sins: tolerance, humanism, peace and diplomacy.
The final solution proposed by your government is not peace, the means neither. Fascist final solution!
Shame on you!!!!!
29 | Michael, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
Hamas are about to become Humus - inshallah or no inshallah.
Israel is doing what is necessary for her survival. Journalists are doing the same.
Their Ignorance, prejudice, naivety and hypocrisy knows no bounds.
Shalom al Israel !
30 | Michael in France, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
Maya in Sweden: How do you say " I love you" in Swedish? :-) Shalom shalom !
31 | ricardo, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
tim mcgirk is the lefty looney who got US troops indicted in Iraq for doing their duty. (the charges were later proved false) he should be charged with aiding the enemy
32 | Larry Rabinovich, New York, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
Declan,
You are a good person, doing good work. ( And you even use your actual name-I googled you). And the sentiments you express aim toward nobility and honor. People in Israel , too , are engaged in the good fight against poverty, AIDS, lack of opportunity, inequality, illegal trafficking of various kinds. If you have visited Israel you know that- and if you haven't you should- you would meet many people there doing precisely these good works. And if the security situation cleared, there would be much more of this sort of work which is urgently needed. But Hamas has declared war on peace
33 | Amnon, the Great AMERICAN Southwest, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
The bottom line is this, and it is one almost every "mainstream" - read: Evenhanded ( which really means pro-Palestinian) columnist or op-ed writer hands down to us is that there is no military solution, that we must give the Palys their own state.
Nice. A state in which at least 80 percent of the population and practically ALL Muslims wish every Israeli Jew dead.
Sorry, but there is a solution if Israeli leaders, including the timid Barak ever shed their Jew as humanitarian routine, and that is - you go into Gaza, level the place or drive the Paly Muslims into Sinai. More in my followup
34 | Amnon, the Great AMERICAN Southwest, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
A miltiary solution requires a leap of faith, and the shedding of the Oslo myth forever. But what would you prefer? Aaron David Miller's "Get Tough On Israel" routine and more forced displacement of Jews from their ancestral homes for nothing except more killing and more violence, because that is what the other side is truly about. Or victory altogether, even if it means doing the same in Judea-Samaria? I prefer victory, irregardless what the rest of the world who mourns over dead Jews but curses living ones say, or what the Millers say too.
Rabbi Kahane, bless him was right. More.
35 | Amnon, the Great AMERICAN Southwest, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
Last comment:
What those who want Obama to get "tough" with Israel offer a carrot, but it is one that also would require Israel to depend more on an unfriendly world, to capitulate. For deep concessions, all of whom would probably doom the Jewish state, including ceding half of Jerusalem to the Muslims (no talk about ceding half of Mecca to the Jews), and withdrawing from practically all of Judea-Samaria, NATO troops will take up position in Judea-Samaria. No offer of American Statehood. Well, we've seen how worthwhile (NOT) UN troops have been in Lebanon. Anyone like Hizbullah? No thanks.
36 | Anti-Fa Brit, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
For Declan out of good ol' Ireland.
Hey sonny. When you decide to make peace with the Protestants, or better yet let them take over Belfast as they are indeed the majority there, instead of sending in your IRA hitmen and bombs, then talk to us about moral ground in the Middle East.
Your scumpig DeValera actually expressed condolences to the German Embassy (yes, Ireland kept relations with the Nazis during WWII!) when Hitler died. So much for Irish morality and friendship towards Jews.
By the way, Tommy, Bog (Irish Catholics) and Sand (Hamas Muslims) don't mix.
37 | Joseph, Passaic, NJ, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
"The Guardian of Israel neither sleeps nor slumbers!" as many an anti-Semite has discovered throught the millenia.
38 | Mike Carroll, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
Well you talk of God so I assume you at least believe in the idea. The sad thing is that you cannot really say the things you say and REALLY believe in God for if you did you would know that God cannot act in your favor until you are obedient. He has said that you are not to make peace with your enemies...if you make peace you tie his hands. Have you noticed that despite the heavy fighting the death rate is like 100 to 1 God is capable but just like David ...until he stood up to Goliath God could not bless his efforts. What if he had tried to make a two state solution?
39 | David, Az, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
following world opinion led to the Holocaust. no need to follow the source of that advice twice.
40 | Declan Montgomery, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
To 36:peace has been achieved in Northern Ireland, just when they got over the ignorant predjudice & innane mud-slinging your message displays and dealt with each other fairly with respect. As for De Valera or anything in the past; I am no more responsible 4 that as you are for Cromwell. I don't want to dwell on your ignorance, but Irish doesn't mean catholic either. But your message serves a purpose; ignorance and dehumanizing others always serves the cause of violence, never peace. The politics of the put-down in the end only escalates hatred and perpetuates conflict.
41 | bannister USA, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
LS Bernstein , When you are gone there will be a celebration as if the Plague had ended.
Take a look at Apartheid South Africa, who mourns the loss of those creeps?
It's not about ending Jews it's about correcting a mistake in location for the "Jewish State"
Like bacon founding a homeland in a frying pan and wondering why it's so hot.
42 | NCROSARIO, USA., Sunday Jan 11, 2009
Israel just needs to stop talking and assert herself to her rightful place in the world. It's inevitable, mark my words. There is no need to be afraid, you are God's chosen people and he will protect you, as is seen in the low number of Israeli casualties in this most recent conflict, despite those terrorists continuously launching rockets at your citizens. I personally, am not concerned with any sort of peace deal, or two state solution.
In the end, Israel will be triumphant.
43 | Jay, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
its time to start talking about victory over hamas. the IDF cleared out the west bank and its actually one of the highest standards of living in the arab world today. do the same with gaza, and the pals will actually have a chance at a somewhat normal life - but if the world continues to reward terrorists like hamas then they will not stop and not moderate and the pals continue to suffer. The blame for these events falls squarely on the Terrorists - Hamas.
44 | Joyce, South Carolina, USA, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
God will always have A Remnat of His chosen people!
45 | Dagoberto Mensch, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
In Porto Alegre (Brazil), a taxi driver told me that Jews carry stones to the graveyard to throw at other people, another person told me that Jews should not talk about the Holocaust because that could make people angry. So, you see, I strongly believe this behaviour is from people who chooses sides first and then create lies against Israel and the Jews to adapt to their theories. People are suckers for first impressions. When Hamas broke the cease-fire, they hit and kill 2 palestinians (supposedly, their own people). nobody cared to report that. Objectivity is dead, long live objectivity.
46 | Anti-Fa Brit, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
For Declan,
I know that there are Protestants - and JEWS too, by the way, in Ireland. It seems a pity that you don't recognize that, or recognize what Hamas is, but hey, you can still spew your hate and lies, Tommy. There is still NO peace, just an agreement tenuously accepted by both sides and backed up by the fact that there are still British troops in North Ireland and that the Protestants and won't tolerate another bombing. As for Cromwell, well, he was benevolent towards Jews and didn't associate with Nazis as DeValera did and you do too with Hamas. Put that in your bag and smoke it.
47 | Christopher Richard Wade Dettling, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
Why barter with weak leaders, for half-measures & complexifications, in Cairo & Europe?
In light of Iran it is imperative Israel take the initiative in every fashion, to crush and liquidate her deadly foes
This Sarko Plan is pure Euro-nonsense in the high mode of diplomatie francaise
Sarko's reelection is his problem: European division is an EEC problem
Operation Cast Lead is a success, at this time, because Israel took the initiative
Keep the initiative:Don't surrender the initiative:Because the momentum is what counts--at this stage
Israel has more to win than to lose
Tehran must pay
48 | Zen, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
Jews do not throw political opposition off the highest buildings; but we should formalise our treatment of traitors. The entire people should applaud the treatment that Richard Falk received at passport control when he was refused entry to Israel. There is another candidate for this treatment is so-called-Rabbi, honorary-only-Dr TONY BAYFIELD, of the UK Reform community. He has just made money writing against Israels action in the Judeophobic Guardian newspaper. We need deterrence against fair-weather Jews; put these two names on top of a new Black List: Stay in Londinistan Bayfield!
49 | Christopher Richard Wade Dettling, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
Typo: Replace: "EEC" with "EU"
50 | andre steiner, israel, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
In Greek mythology, Nemesis is the goddess of retribution, who exacts the punishment of the Gods for the human folly of overweening arrogance, or hubris. The english saying "pride comes before a fall" reflects the commonplace occurrence. Hamas being guilty of hubris is now facing the mighty of the israeli army and the Palestinian people, cheated by the same hubris and decades of suffering under corrupt leaderships/elites is once more being punished on a unfair measure. We as israelis must not be deterred by the media or the politicians and must face the challange to destroy Hamas, Iran's hand.
51 | Tom Marshall, Monday Jan 12, 2009
I suspect JP readers are not interested in the fate of the civilians who are most of the casualties of this conflict. But where is this conflict leading? So far it has boosted Hamas support in Gaza and in the West Bank. If they survive as an organisation, they may become the main political power in both regions. To wipe Hamas out as an organisation will cost many more lives and take a great deal more time. There may be a high cost in terms of international support for Israel. The most likely outcome is that Israel may be obliged to talk to Hamas, hardly what was intended.
52 | Helcio J. Tagliolatto , Bauru, Brazil, Monday Jan 12, 2009
The McGirk's article is provocative, of course. The most of the texts censuring Israel are of that sort. I do not have the necessary knowledge of history to analyse this ancient conflict, but I know one thing: he and any other journalists would not express, comment nor censuring that way IF they were under a Traditional Muslin oriented regimen.
THIS is the reason I support Israel, a democratic country, even being a person that dislikes any form of religious group identification.
53 | Mike, Denver, Monday Jan 12, 2009
This guy Tim McGirk is the one who blew the whistle on the Haditha Marines, accusing them of War Crimes against Iraqi civilians. Without going into all the details of the charges, sufficeth to say that all were aquitted. McGirk is a sensationalist; not to be respected as an objective journalist. In addition to not being a questionablly patriotic American, he's now giving off an odor of anti-semitism.
54 | Motti, San Francisco, Monday Jan 12, 2009
Israel's Survival in the long term is first predicated requiring survival in the near term. As much as one can navel gaze, obsess about our higher standards, in the near term we must shut down Hamas, dead. Gamarnu. No worrying about what others think, nor about others strategies. The tunnels must be flooded with gas and burned, such that the munitions never see the light of day. If Hamas wanted to hide in their homes across Gaza, let them die there, let them see how stupid there strategy was to involve their civilians in the battles Hamas chose to engage in. They want Jihad, let them face the IDF, world opinion be dammed. Yes there will be consequences, but the alternative to not finishing off Hamas is unthinkable. FINISH the Job and stop philosiphizing. The IDF can do it. And the nation of Israel needs the IDF to do the job. Once and for all.
55 | Mr. Anonymous USA, Monday Jan 12, 2009
I doubt you will publish this: you are the main instigators of wars in the Middle East. You created the letter bombs, Islamic terrorism, assassinated Olaf Palme in 1986, and instigated wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. You suffer from a megalomaniac superiority complex but deep inside of you is nothing but weakness and fear. Even you fear your own. And you will never defeat the Palestinians. Your days are counted. Give one to three decades but Israel will be history. If many hate your country, you ask for it. Much you learned from Hitler's Germany. And I am no Muslim nor Arab, mind you.
56 | Jim - Ohio, Monday Jan 12, 2009
I am afraid Rosner is guilty of 'em all.
57 | Rob - USA, Monday Jan 12, 2009
When I read the comments I come to the conclusion that Jews are the most racist group on earth.
Esp. "How we get rid of the arab minority" Sounds like you are the new Nazis.
58 | Alan Venezuela, Monday Jan 12, 2009
To Christian "Zionists": keep your "blessings" to yourselves. You're so selfish that you think the Gaza conflicts fulfills prophecy prior to some "second coming", then a lot of Jews would be slaughtered & the rest converted to Christianity. The "Armageddon Lobby" & the neocons has done a great deal of damage to Israel and Israeli leaders are playing a *dangerous* game appeasing these folks because of their so-called "unconditional" support. You're wolves in sheep's skin.
59 | Nick, England, Monday Jan 12, 2009
Israel has lost the support of the public all over the world (with the exception of the US establishment, of course and the political leaders of Germany, that's because of the dead-horse political remorse). Oh, some rednecks like #42 or #44. Israel is becoming like the apartheid regime of South Africa, playing the antisemite card won't work forever...
60 | Joseph E. Deutsch, M.D. Suffern, NY, Monday Jan 12, 2009
When TIME Magazine introduced its readers to Menachem Begin, in a 1969 or 1970 essay, they chose to add this scurrilous little bon mot: " 'Begin' ...rhymes with 'Fagin' " -- an all-too-obvious and anti-semitic reference to Dickens' ugly Jewish caricature in Oliver Twist.
Take it from whom it comes; don't expect better from TIME. "En davar chadash tachat hashemesh".
Joseph E. Deutsch, M.D.
61 | Ann, Monday Jan 12, 2009
That same G-d who covenented with Abraham, & who has kept Israel all this time (in spite of all they have endured), & caused Israel to once again become a nation: is caring even now for His ancient people the Jews. God will determine the outcome of this current conflict. Israel is here to stay! We need to recognise this fact & deal with it prayerfully. The Messiah is coming. Are you ready???
62 | Rick, Portland, Oregon USA, Monday Jan 12, 2009
Israel will survive...after all it has hundreds of nuclear weapons. But was it a mistake to have withdrawn from Gaza to begin with in 2001? Many former Israeli Gaza settlers
are saying so. The larger, more painful question is how to deal with the Palestinians?
It seems that Fatah may be the best hope for a peaceful settlement; but that entails complete
liquidation of its rival, Hamas; so Operation Cast Lead cannot cease until Hamas is gone forever.
In any case, a viable international peacekeeping force will probably have to be maintained in Gaza
to prevent another Hamas.
63 | Chris Francis, London, Canada, Monday Jan 12, 2009
Many Israelis don't believe that Palestinians will ever support peace. However, a Dec 16th poll showed that 74% of Palestinians wanted the ceasefire extended.
Many Palestinians, both moderate and extremist are joining Hamas. If Hamas continues to run for office, over time the most popular leaders will become more powerful in Hamas. Palestinians want stability and prosperity. If moderate leaders can deliver that, they will be more popular than extremists.
The ceasefire was successful in reducing violence and should have been extended. No Israelis were killed and 21 Palestinians.
64 | not bill clinton, Monday Jan 12, 2009
You know Norm I really wish the rest of the world would either attack the United states or just shut up. I really hope the world does attack. The world will lose, and lose big, at least 50 million americans live in homes with guns, and we will use them, should we feel threatened. so before you and the rest of you aussies run your mouths again, ask yourself this question" " do I really want to piss off 50 millions armed americans?
65 | Matthew, New York, Monday Jan 12, 2009
Your article is typical propaganda trash. Israel's murderous reign of terror upon the Palestinians makes clear it is an outlaw state without conscience. Israel = War Crimes and anyone supporting it is equally guilty.
66 | Drew Kaplan NYC, Monday Jan 12, 2009
Perhaps what is on the chopping block is this war is the doctrine of the universal applicability of Democracy.
Is a population like that of Gaza, where 80% of the population considers suicide bombings of civilians is a legitimate form of political protest, really culturally mature enough for political self-determination?
I'm not a racist. I sympathize with the plight of the Palestinians and do not see anything distinct or different about their nature compared to any other people, rather the nurture and the culture of death and victimization that has enveloped them over the last 50 years.
67 | Vinod Joseph, UK, Monday Jan 12, 2009
The Time article is very incoherent. It talks of how a two-state solution is the only feasible one, but does not explain why the current Gaza Offensive may prove to be Israel's undoing. Israel is justified in trying to stop the rockets. Period. Not that Israel is likely to be successful http://winnowed.blogspot.com/2009/01/israels-gaza-offensive-is-fully.html
68 | Zen, Monday Jan 12, 2009
Response to 64 not bill: Clinton you Americans will have the last laugh on Australia. The Iranians have agreed to pass their nuclear technology to Indonesia. Indonesia has ten people for every Australian and their military is larger than the entire Australian population. Indonesia is buying submarines off many countries, Korea, Russia, Germany etc. Soon Indonesia will invade Australia, sink their navy and create a bridgehead in Queensland. Slowly they will invade the entire country. Then they will beg for their American friends to come and help them, but America and NATO will not come!
69 | jonah, Viet-nam, Monday Jan 12, 2009
One Arab : a Djihadist
Two Arabs : an Arab Civil War
Three Arabs : an International Djihad.
Arab-accepted Borders of Israel : A point on the Mediterranean Coastline [a point has no superficy].
The Holiest Holy Duty for Moslems : The Destruction of Israel.
[Read CorrelliBarnett's comment in Time Mag's comrade,the London Times]
The Rebirth of Israel in 1948 is nothing short of GOD' S Miracle, his Continuous Existence since is of the Same Order.
The fact that the w0rld today is so unanimously anti-Israel in contempt of the facts is proof enough,
if need any,of the existence of the devil.
70 | person uk, Monday Jan 12, 2009
I am curious, do the Israelis hate all Muslims and Palestinians?Do you feel sad for the ones who are caught up in this offensive?I am genuinely asking out of curiosity.I would just like a general opinion because I don't really care what the media and randomers from other countries think,I would like to get an Israeli opinion as I haven't had a very 'Jewish' upbringing so I feel I dont really understand the hate and anger in a lot of the comments posted here.Is the general feeling towards Muslims really one of complete hatred or am I misinterpreting the comments?
71 | Motti, San Francisco, Monday Jan 12, 2009
Obama's chief of staff Rahm Emmanuel is an an American Isreali .Think the US will not continue supporting Israel? Think again. Get to work IDF !!!
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