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Sunday Sep 13, 2009
Rosner's Domain: Why "tough love" will get you nowherePosted by SHMUEL ROSNER
Comments: 26      Follow Rosner's Domain on Twitter!!! Barry Rubin on the false premise of "tough love": Tough love: This derives from the late 1980s and early 1990s when the left side of the Israeli spectrum was pushing the land-for-peace and negotiate with the PLO arguments against their rivals on the right. A little U.S. pressure, they argued, would help get talks going. A lot has happened since then, however, notably the 1992-2000 Oslo process. This proved to the vast majority of Israelis that the Palestinian leadership (and Syria, too, for that matter) wasnt ready or interested in peace. Disillusioned, a lot of these people supported Ariel Sharon and the disengagement from the Gaza Strip, the results of which (Hamas takeover, rocket fire) made them even more disenchanted. That's why the Labour party which invented the land-for-peace argument in the first place and made the Oslo agreement and offered a two-state solution in 2000 is now in a coalition government with the Likud party. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is not a "right-wing" or "hard-line" leader but someone who speaks for the national consensus, a consensus based on education through painful, bloody experience.
1 | Mike Feldman Canada, Sunday Sep 13, 2009
Kudos. At last a brilliantly concise piece that defines the current situation, and the misguided pressure applied on Israel on a daily basis.
2 | Sally - U.S.A., Sunday Sep 13, 2009
I agree with Rubin in that anyone & everyone that has a keyboard & no knowledge of the situation is sticking it to Israel; it seems the PC thing to do. One reason that I like to read the new republic is that Peretz is very outspoken & very blunt. He & Commentary seem to be on the same page.
3 | Liran Kapoano, USA, Sunday Sep 13, 2009
Not sure how you can say that that Labour "invented" the the "land-for-peace argument" when Begin gave the Sinai to Egypt a good 15 years before Oslo. He was about as far from Mapai as you can get while still being Israeli.
4 | Noga, Canada, Monday Sep 14, 2009
"Begin gave the Sinai to Egypt a good 15 years before Oslo"
The word was "invented and Land-for-peace was Golda Meirs idea:
"Pressing for a meeting with the Arabs, she [Golda Meir] proclaimed her readiness to go to any length except national suicide to secure peace.
I'm even prepared to go to Cairo--how about that!--to sit down at the table."
"Suppose we want to return territory we have taken," she noted. "To whom? We can't send it to Nasser by parcel post."
http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/0503.html
5 | GOLDEN NUGGET Australia, Monday Sep 14, 2009
CALL it what you like...DIDN'T WORK...WON'T WORK..arab/muslim demands are a bottomless pitt...
you can't fill a bottomless pitt..nope..you cant...
6 | Chris USA, Monday Sep 14, 2009
Tough Love is exclusively the domain for addicts. It is no surprise therefore that its misapplication to Israel failed to acheive anything. One must use the right tool for the right job!
7 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Monday Sep 14, 2009
This discussion is about two sides of the same coin. The ''tough love'' turns up the heat right away. The other face of the coin is like the story of the frog in a pot of water, you turn up the heat gradually while telling the frog, isn't that nice & warm, until the water boils & the frog is cooked. Both ''tactics'' have the same goal - concessions in the name of an illusory peace. The ''tough love'' group is impatient, those damn Jews just won't committ suicide fast enough. The other side speaks soothing words, gives us verbal valium, but the goal is the same.
8 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Monday Sep 14, 2009
There's an interesting post at FresnoZionism today - the nightmare scenario of our future if we give in to everyone's demands, particularly Obama, & at the same time, Iran obtains nuclear weapons. This nightmare scenario does not even include a nuclear attack on Israel, something in the realm of probability. If you read this rather scary post, keeping in mind recent history since Oslo, well, it's a real wake-up call.
9 | Mike Feldman Canada, Monday Sep 14, 2009
#8. Terry. Read article. It lead me to a link discussing the legaltiy of the settlements which I found very enlightening.
10 | Ronald USA, Monday Sep 14, 2009
Tom, you are right. The problems of the world are the fault of the Jews. Wouldn't the world be a grand place if you and your fellow travelers could eliminate anyone you didn't like and you always knew what you were talking about? This is from your post - 'You say that Afghanistan is not Israel's war. Another lie. Al Qaeda is fighting zionism not freedom and liberty.' Even the US troops on the ground are openly saying the Al Qaeda IS NOT in Afghanistan. The US ran Al Qaeda out years ago. The Taliban is fighting us in Afghanistan. Get your facts straight, before you mouth off.
11 | Mike Feldman Canada, Monday Sep 14, 2009
#10. Ronald. Your post is even more interesting considering that if you read Tom's recurring posts on this site, you will see that he has claimed decades of experience as a covert operative and a spy. He states he has many worldwide connections. I assume that you are not a spy. Therefore, there must be something wrong with Tom's ""intelleigence" if you know something that he doesn't. I've often thought that there is a problem with Tom's intelligence.
12 | Daran, UK, Monday Sep 14, 2009
Tough love is a nice euphenism for the americans and israeli's to share. How about enforcement or prehaps even realignment? for terms wish better describe Israel current standing with the US. It seems many Israeli's are blindly forsaking their greatest ally. It would take one UNSCR resolution to impose, yes I said impose, a "solution". Few would consider such a solution would favour Israel and given the level of opposition likely could be followed by an even more grave sitututation. As a supporter of Israel I feel the realist's need to reign in the more fanciful expectations.
13 | Liran Kapoano, Monday Sep 14, 2009
Noga - I had not heard that Golda quote before...within that context I can certainly see the distinction between "invention" VS "first-to-practice". Still though, it's interesting that both disengagements (from Sinai and Gaza) occurred under the watch of two die-hard hawks like Begin and Sharon. Granted they moderated late in life, but you would think the doves would be the ones to actually follow their own plan.
14 | David USA, Monday Sep 14, 2009
Tough love is an understatement. In order to bring both sides to their senses, they need a good kick in the you know what !
15 | cares1996, Monday Sep 14, 2009
PEOPLE OF ISRAEL,BE GRATEFUL MR. NETANYAHU IS NOT ABUSING HIS POWER,HE`S STANDING UP FOR YOUR RIGHT TO EXIST,IF THERE`S A PROBLEM WITH THAT,THEN YA NEED TO LOOK IN THE MIRROR.
16 | NormanF USA, Tuesday Sep 15, 2009
There is no "tough love," no pressure and no willingness in the West to force the Arabs to face up to their own pathologies and correct them. It is not Israel that is standing in the way of peace. The Arabs with their take no prisoners mindset have contributed mightily to the continuation of the Arab-Israeli conflict.
17 | H Mirza, London, Tuesday Sep 15, 2009
'Disengagement' from the Gaza strip is a euphemism for a very big prison. Total land, air and sea bloackade. You've put those people in a horrible situation. Try and be brave and honest about this mistake. Israel can do better than this.
Land for peace is BS. PEACE FOR PEACE. Meaning negotiating a 100 year truce with your worst enemies. What do you have to lose?
Netanyahu? I have never seen such an egotist and self-serving politician be supported so publicly and without criticism since Putin. Peace can still happen. Try harder.
18 | Mike Feldman, Canada, Tuesday Sep 15, 2009
Terry. I hope you see this post and can help me out. G-d knows I'm no expert on the politics of the region. But considering the buzz around the upcoming "peace" talks, I'm confused about something. It seems that Fatah is adamant that elections be held next January 25th. I assume these elections are for Gaza and the West Bank. If this is correct, is it not likely that, sensing their loss of popularity, Hamas will refuse to have elections. If this happens won't Abbas declare Hamas' rule illegitament. Assuming an accord has been reached, won't Netanyahu be left standing with an olive branch and no one to hand it too?
19 | L. Hamilton from a Cafe near the beach in Eilat, Tuesday Sep 15, 2009
...Exellent Article by Rosner who now speaks with clarity ( like me : )
20 | GOLDEN NUGGET, Tuesday Sep 15, 2009
"PEACE" with arab/muslims.??..no such animal exists...ONLY ISLAM...therefore "PEACE with Islam??
no such MIRACLE possible...Israel can whistle "Hava Nigala" and America can whistle "Dixie" and
Islam can whistle "Ya Mustafa". ..THATS about IT....EVERYONE is "Whistling in the Wind"...yep...you
better believe it !!
21 | GOLDEN NUGGET, Tuesday Sep 15, 2009
"PEACE" with arab/muslims.??..no such animal exists...ONLY ISLAM...therefore "PEACE with Islam??
no such MIRACLE possible...Israel can whistle "Hava Nigala" and America can whistle "Dixie" and
Islam can whistle "Ya Mustafa". ..THATS about IT....EVERYONE is "Whistling in the Wind"...yep...you
better believe it !!
22 | Ronald USA, Tuesday Sep 15, 2009
#11 Mike Feldman, If Tom has decades of experience as a covert operative, then US intelligence capabilities are worse than I thought. Most of us who regularly follow current events from the information reported in public (not confidential government) sources, has far more insight into events unfolding than Tom. Don't get me wrong. Tom knows a great deal. It's just that none of it is true.
23 | Mike Feldman, Canada, Tuesday Sep 15, 2009
#22 Ronald. If you follow Tom regularly you may find yourself reading English or a foreign language that sounds like English. Tom berates W for being led by the neocons. Then he calls William Kristol's father a communist. I assume that means both are bad. Now we have President Obama. A disciple of Saul Alinsky, Jewish, socialist community organizer. These are now positive attributes. Further, Tom recently pointed out that Hilary Rhodam Clinton was born and raised as a Jewess. I think we must accept that Tom possesses supernational powers, and he knows what is not for mere mortals to know.
24 | PZ, Tuesday Sep 15, 2009
Seems a bit too convenient to pretend this is somehow a discussion about efficacy, Rosner. Is Barry Rubin's argument really that American 'tough love' "gets you nowhere"? Or is it, dafka, that TL gets you to a definite 'somewhere,' but a somewhere that Mr Rubin really, really dislikes? As my side (the pro-TL side) is well aware, this is deeply substantive, and not just procedural. Unlike the other side, though, my side has the luxury of a substantive position that doesn't embarrass when stated plainly: we're pro peace agreement. Mr Rubin's position -- anti -- is much harder to beautify.
25 | PZ, Tuesday Sep 15, 2009
Continuing, I think the real "false premise" here is Mr Rubin's: that we TL advocates are somehow deluded as to the existence of a large block of Israelis still opposed to a full peace deal. We're in fact WELL aware of it, but simply do not share any of this block's substantive agenda. Indeed, we recognize that a comprehensive peace agreement is a vital Israeli strategic necessity of highest importance, and we refuse to remain hostages to the status quo of the Mr Rubins, however many there may be.
26 | samuel, Wednesday Sep 16, 2009
Re. Tough love -- while this is not an anniversary party, not yet -- both sides want to same birth day cake
and eat it too. It simply does not work, it is not within the mathematics of 2day! May be we should
call on Einstein to give us a perspective on "relativity".
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