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Sunday Sep 13, 2009

Rosner's Domain: Why Podhoretz was hoping that Jews would vote for McCain

Posted by SHMUEL ROSNER
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Someone should tell Ron Kampeas that blog posts should not be so long. Tell him that if it takes more that 24 hours to read - it probably means that you need to shorten it. But other than investing to much time and giving to much space to this unworthy debate, Kampeas does a marvelous job (as usual) dissecting both Norman Podhoretz' Why Jews Are Liberal - the article version (I didn't read it yet, but am quite certain the book is much better) - and Glenn Greenwald's to-be-expected misrepresentation of Podhoretz' article. For those readers with shorter attention spans (or more demanding work-days) than JTA readers, here's a couple paragraphs that will give you a sense of what Kampeas is doing:

Whatever the merits of Podhoretz's argument (and clearly, I'm not convinced it has any merits), it is broadbased: He attacks every facet of Jewish liberalism, and decrying Jewish support for a president who is now in open conflict with Israel's government over its settlement policy is just one of these.

Not according to Greenwald:

Apparently, The Godfather of Neoconservatism believes that American Jews do -- and should -- base their political beliefs not on what is best for their own country, but on what is best for a foreign country (Israel).

But Podhoretz makes so such singular claim. He says the "main" reason he believed last year that Jewish voters would gravitate to John McCain was Israel, but this is because he believes what he depicts as sharp differences between the two candidates on Israel policy would finally shock Jews into understanding that they are, organically, Republicans:

What I am saying is that if anything bears eloquent testimony to the infinitely precious virtues of the traditional American system, it is the Jewish experience in this country. Surely, then, we Jews ought to be joining with its defenders against those who are blind or indifferent or antagonistic to the philosophical principles, the moral values, and the socioeconomic institutions on whose health and vitality the traditional American system depends.

In 2008, we were faced with a candidate who ran to an unprecedented degree on the premise that the American system was seriously flawed and in desperate need of radical change - not to mention a record powerfully indicating that he would pursue policies dangerous to the security of Israel. Because of all this, I hoped that my fellow Jews would finally break free of the liberalism to which they have remained in thrall long past the point where it has served either their interests or their ideals.

This is the crux of Podhoretz's argument: Arrant nonsense, to be sure, but Israel is a "not to mention" clause, not the whole argument.

So Greenwald is either infuriated into delusion or is willfully lying when he reports the following:

According to him, even though Obama shares most of their views on political matters ("on abortion, gay rights, school prayer, gun control and assisted suicide, the survey data show that Jews are by far the most liberal of any group in America"), American Jews should have nonetheless voted for McCain because of McCain's alleged "long history of sympathy with Israel."  Isn't this the "dual loyalty" argument that nobody is allowed to make upon pain of being accused of all sorts of bad things -- that the political beliefs of some American Jews are shaped primarily or even exclusively by loyalty to Israel?  Yet here we find not Walt and Mearshimer or Chas Freeman making this claim, but Norman Podhoretz.

 Is it not more than enough information?

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1  |  Mike Feldman Canada, Sunday Sep 13, 2009
As I have said before, Jews have tradtionally been attracted to parties or movements on the left because these were the first politcal organizations that welcomed Jewish participation. Many Jews in the first half of the twentieth century were socialsts. But now groups like J Street say that the Jewish lobby is dominated by old timers who are bonded by the ways of the past. Actually the opposite is true. J Street and other liberal Jews cannot maintain that the newer movement of Jews to the right, is dominated by the old timers who were on the left. Its a contradiction. Liberalism may represent traditional Jewish values but it does nothing to promote the inerests of the Jews. It in fact, promotes Jew bashing by Jews.
2  |  Elise westchester, NY, Sunday Sep 13, 2009
What disingenuous nonsense. The "liberal" Jews of America should have voted for McCAin because the democratic nominee sat in the pew of a a racist anti-semite for 20 years without contest, and befriended virulent anti-semites his entire life. It is not dual loyalty to understand that when the speaker says "Israel" they really mean "Jews" and that those opposed to Israel's existance are anti-semites of the old order just wearing different clothing. Mr. Podhoretz is correct, it is time the majority of American Jews actually deal with the reality that the Dems will not enure their survival.
3  |  Sally - U.S.A., Sunday Sep 13, 2009
Where I come from, it something looks like a duck, walks like a duck, & quacks like a duck; then it's a duck. In my view, the far left is showing itself to be anti-semitic. MLK said anyone who says zionism is racism really means Judaism and that is anti-semitism. Charles Freeman's rants about an Israel Lobby is just like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (which the Saudis hand out like party favors to all their visitors.) Mary Robinson, Jimmy Carter, Samatha Powers, Van Jones. Obama claims he wants "different views" when he selected these people or they are "unofficial" or he "didn't know."
4  |  Andy in Minneapolis, Sunday Sep 13, 2009
>> The "liberal" Jews of America should have voted for McCAin because the democratic nominee sat in the pew of a a racist anti-semite for 20 years without contest, and befriended virulent anti-semites his entire life. << Good to see that the vile smear campaign of 2008 is still going strong. Elise could talk to some of the Chicago Jews who backed Obama (and who have known the man throughout his political career in Illinois), regarding his readiness to send us off to the gas chambers one more time. And she dares to use the word "reality."
5  |  Sally - U.S.A., Sunday Sep 13, 2009
But, I do not see Obama appointing someone with, for example, an anti-mexican or anti-african view.
6  |  Sally - U.S.A., Sunday Sep 13, 2009
I did not see Obama pick someone with, for example, an anti-mexican view if he wanted someone with a "dfferent view" on a situation. His excuses are silly & weak. As for the disection of John Podhoretz, it is ridiculous. Are there people to the extreme right who are anti-semitic? Of course; however, it does not justify the exteme left's anti-semitism. Also, the anger at the far left is not just about settlements - which Greenwald pretends is the only problem which is feigning ignorance on his part, just like the straw dog approach that Obama used in his Cairo Speech.
7  |  Tom, US, Monday Sep 14, 2009
The very reason WHY American's voted for Obama was because McSame wasn't going to do ANYTHING different than his retarded predecessor did. Just more of the same failed policies that bankrupted America fighting Israel's wars. This is the very same reason why Obama will probably be elected again in the next presidential election. Because as much as the jewish minority whine about Obama, American's view that as a sign of progress. So please, by all means, whine as loudly and profusely as you possibly can because it will insure Obama's reelection.
8  |  GOLDEN NUGGET Australia, Monday Sep 14, 2009
#3 SALLY....sure does looks walks and qacks like a "LAME DUCK"...yep...could before long be a "DEAD DUCK"...er...wonder when the hunting season starts in America??
9  |  GOLDEN NUGGET Australia, Monday Sep 14, 2009
#3 SALLY....sure does looks walks and qacks like a "LAME DUCK"...yep...could before long be a "DEAD DUCK"...er...wonder when the hunting season starts in America??
10  |  Reuven Ben-Daniel, Israel, Monday Sep 14, 2009
#7 Tom, US. You are a liar. Please tell me when America fought Israel's wars?
11  |  Tim Schultz crivitz WI US, Monday Sep 14, 2009
#7 Tom, where do you find your talking points from. You blame the right for everything.. McSame, retarded? Just dont talk anymore and do us all a favor. There were alot of people that marched on Washington this weekend. They are sick of your lies and b-sh't. president obama is still our president(thanks for that btw). its our problem right now, and hopefully some adults will deal with the situation..
12  |  Terry - Eilat, Israel, Monday Sep 14, 2009
#1 Mike. The J-Street crowd are much like the Jewish communists in Eastern Europe. These Jewish communists were often more anti-Semitic than their gentile counter-parts. Marxism was their new religion & they had the zeal of new converts. We have relics of this group here in Israel - extreme Leftists who hate anything Jewish. The J-Street crowd are not liberals - they are extreme Leftists allied with Islamists. In theory, there is no conflict with holding liberal values while maintaining a strong support for Israel or a strong defense posture for the U.S.
13  |  Terry - Eilat, Israel, Monday Sep 14, 2009
#1 Mike. The other point I would make re: J-Street is that they are a deliberate tool to divide the American Jewish Community, to blunt criticism of Obama's BS. Unlike most immigrant groups in the US, Jews did not move to the right with growing economic success, instead they internalized liberal values as part of their assimilation into American culture. That many came from Eastern Europe where Socialism opposed reactionary right-wing anti-Semitic politics was an added justification. Today, many liberal Jews have not caught up to changes in the Left which is now a source of anti-Semitism.
14  |  Chris USA, Monday Sep 14, 2009
Apparently, "the crux of Podhoretz's argument" ignored the impact of a successful advertising campaign by Obama's jewish supporters just as Greenwald ignores Podhoretz's argument.
15  |  Sally - U.S.A., Monday Sep 14, 2009
GOLDEN NUGGET, hopefully, but how much damage will Obama do before that? The thing is, in terms of foreign policy, Commentary is on the same page as the New Republic. Specifically, Obama has been called weak & silly by both. Podhoretz is saying I told you so & laying out the welcome mat like Reagan did. Instead of changing course, the far left is helping him.
16  |  Ton, US, Monday Sep 14, 2009
10 | 11 | - America is fighting enemies that Israel created at this very moment . You make your enemies, then fight your own damned wars ! Not even 1 American should fight and die for the apartheid regime in Israel . The neocons are NOT the right wing in America . Never were and never will be . The likkud wing of the republican party called the neocons was formed full cloth from the communist party, USA . Both of William Kristol's parents were card carrying members of the communist party . Unlike the stench that emanates from Israel, not even one lie .
17  |  Ronald USA, Monday Sep 14, 2009
The so-called 'dual loyalty' argument leveled against Jews only makes sense to dimwits and libelers. Americans are FREE to love and support any peoples or nations they chose. The people that don't like that can stick it where the sun don't shine. America is not a dictatorship and dopey people like Greenwald are not the thought-police. Since the birth of Israel, Jews no longer have to fear dolts who don't like Jews. We sure don't have to worry about 'dual loyalty' fatuousness.
18  |  Mike Feldman Canada, Monday Sep 14, 2009
#16 Mot. William Kristol's father Irving was the managing editor of Commentary magazine and is considered the godfather of modern American Conservatism. Strange job for a Commie. His mother was a professor of Victorian literature. In case noone told you teaching literature is not the same as handing out leaflets. One post from you, two lies. That's not even addressing your ridiculous claim that Afghanistan is Ïsrael's" war. The only stench here emanates from your posts.
19  |  Terry - Eilat, Israel, Monday Sep 14, 2009
Liberalism has mutated in this Age of Orwellian Language. Liberalism once stood for individual rights not collectivist crap. Identity politics, political correctness, moral relativism, & multi-culturalism have turned liberalism into a joke. Many American Jews are fooled by ''universalist'' BS rhetoric. What we once called Liberalism has degenerated into a hodge-podge of intellectually dishonest , shallow, meaningless verbiage, a cover for a far-left agenda that stands for the opposite of liberal values.
20  |  Tom, US, Monday Sep 14, 2009
Irving Kristol was a Trotskyite communist. This can easily be verified. So please save your lies. Irving Kristol has absolutely NO connection to American conservatism. The neocons have absolutely NO connection to paleoconservatism. The kosher wing of the republican party is a whole other element that has absolutely no connection to traditional conservatism in the United States. You say that Afghanistan is not Israel's war. Another lie. Al Qaeda is fighting zionism not freedom and liberty. The attack on America happened directly because of America's failed foreign policy.
21  |  Mike Feldman Canada, Monday Sep 14, 2009
#19. Terry. Exactly right. The far-left agenda operates under the premise that collectively they know what's best for the individual, and the only way that the uninformed individual will benefit is if the ëlites" who know best are running the show. Sort of a variation of noblesse oblige. I prefer to look at it as a power grab, usually accompanied by rampant corruption. Looking at current events in the U.S., Obama is losing the debate for America's hearts and minds, because he is challenged in realizing that his vision is embraced simply because he states it is good. Humility is not his strong suit.
22  |  Mike Feldman Canada, Monday Sep 14, 2009
#20 Mot. I know you're going to call me lazy since I want you to tell me how to easily verify that Irving Kristol was a Trotskyite communist. But I say this without equivocation to everyone looking at these posts. You are a liar, and you are not able to provide a source which will reference Iriving Kristol's connection to Trotskyite communism. I have no idea what your lecture about the difference between neoconservagism and paleoconservatism has to do with communism. And you are not the judge of which form of conservatism is superior. You espose neither. Al Quada is fighting western civilization and modernity. Your 9/11 justification belongs to a lunatic. Own it, loonie.
23  |  Stephen Berlin, Monday Sep 14, 2009
Typo: Please correct: "But Podhoretz makes so such singular claim." to: "But Podhoretz makes NO such singular claim."
24  |  Amnon, the Great AMERICAN Southwest, Monday Sep 14, 2009
Elise at 2, Very well said. You don't sit in a pew for 20 years being silent or applauding a guy of Tom's bent who if he were White would have been one of Mr. Metzger's ideological buddies - or David Duke's. Furthermore the Messiah C. never really repudiated his daddy Jeremiah Wright's views. Far from it, as evidenced in his choice of advisers and appointments. Gates, Jones, Clinton, Samantha Power, Rob Malley, Rashid Khalidi, Bill Ayers, McPeak, Brezinzski, Chas Freeman, Rosa Brooks and others have a full history of Jew hate. Obie is an anti-Semite, period. His policies are the proof.
25  |  American Cowboy, Monday Sep 14, 2009
Tom is just another fascist idiot and girlieboy. He wouldn't last a day with his views in any Cowboy bar on the plains, because not only is he an anti-Semite, like Jeremiah Wright, hates America too. Pay him no mind.
26  |  Terry - Eilat, Israel, Monday Sep 14, 2009
#21 Mike. I see you read the post at FresnoZionism - scary, isn't it? Liberals actually are the sheep being led to the slaughter by the far-left. Yes, it's a power grab & it's always accompanied by corruption & inflluence peddling. That's how any radical movement seizes power, by essentially buying a constituancy & creating a class of people (gov't. functionaries, union members, an under-class that needs hand-outs, etc.) while others become a new nomenclatura as in the old Soviet Union. This isn't just a phenomenon of the Left, it's a phenomenon of totalitarianism.
27  |  Tom, US, Monday Sep 14, 2009
22 | Mike the loon - Do a web search on 'what is a neocon' . An article that was posted by the European neocons. They talk very freely in that article about the Trotskyite communist, Irving Kristol . Yagoda was also against many of Stalin's policies . Yet Yagoda still ran the USSR's gulags . So once again Mike the loonie psycho - it is YOU who is the LIAR !
28  |  Tom, US, Monday Sep 14, 2009
For Feldman the loonie psycho liar - "Max Shachtman, Sidney Hook, James Burnham, Irving Kristol and Irving Howe — who mostly began their careers as the leading lights (if not members) of the Trotskyist left." Taken directly from the article, 'What Is A Neocon' posted at the European Neocon site. Once you hit their home page the link to the article is one of the 1st links. I already knew that both of W Kristols were members of the communist party. All you have to do is dig a bit and you will find numerous references to it all over the net.
29  |  Steve (prt.1), Monday Sep 14, 2009
I voted for McCain only because Obama was such a scary proposition or the US, but from Israel's standpoint, Obama might be better for Israel's Jews than McCain. Polls reveal, approx. 4% of Israel's Jews consider Obama pro-Israel. Contrast this with Bush. Many Israelis believe, with a middle name like Hussein, Obama is a Muslim. This is a good thing. Remember, George W. Bush was the first Amer. president to make the establishment of a Muslim-terror state a "formal goal of US policy." Bush so boasted and he codified this language for the first time in our GOP national platform.
30  |  Steve (pt. 2), Monday Sep 14, 2009
George W. Bush, "Israel's best friend ever," was hugely successful pressuring Sharon to retreat in the face of the global jihad. Bush may not have gotten from Sharon precisely what he had in mind. Still, Sharon's concessions of land to the jihadists was commended by Bush and the Republican party! I only reluctantly voted for McCain. Why should we believe that, unlike Obama, McCain would NOT have been another "best friend ever," & like Bush a man dedicated to Israel's dismemberment? It remains to be seen if Obama will be as successful as Bush. Seems to me, it is in Netanyahu's hands.
31  |  Tom, US, Monday Sep 14, 2009
30 | Steve - Absolutely correct Steve. Israel looks at Bush as being the best president ever because he gave them whatever they wanted. But look objectively at what Bush accomplished. He completely destabilized the ME with his invasion of Iraq. He created a terrorist training ground that is the envy of ANY Al Qaeda training camp. The IDF found that out the hard way when they invaded Lebanon and got their A whipped on the ground. Bush did more to promote future generations of terrorists than anybody in the world outside of Israel.
32  |  Ronald Ginson, Monday Sep 14, 2009
One of THE defining concepts of Judaism is that of the Jewish People. As Jews, WE ARE ALL responsible for other Jews, wherever they may be. I feel that Israel represents the return to their homeland of the Jewish People. As a member of the Jewish People (I am also a Korean war veteran in the U. S.) I feel personally connected to Israel, and concerned about its' safety. I am concerned that in an existential crunch, the Far Left of the United States will fail to rally against an Iranian atomic bomb. I do not trust President Obama to stop Iran.
33  |  Steve, Monday Sep 14, 2009
Is Glenn Greenwald Jewish? I searched for an answer to this question a few weeks back. The best I could find is a writer who 'assumed' Greenwald is Jewish. I have yet to see in his writings where he claims a Jewish identity. Greenwald wrote: "Apparently (Podhoretz) believes that American Jews do -- and should -- base their political beliefs not on what is best for their own country, but on what is best for a foreign country (Israel)." Why do Greenwald and others assume that basing our political beliefs on a strong and an independent Israel is not what is best for or good for the US?
34  |  Elizabeth, London, Monday Sep 14, 2009
The 75-78% of American Jews that vote Democrat in the presidential elections always do so. They would do so even if the candidate's name was Genghis Khan. The same principle applies to congressional elections: in Minnesota the Jews voted for Ellison, a paid-up Nation of Islam anti-semite who never bothered to conceal his contempt and suspicion of Jewish Americans. Perhaps this is comparable with many Soviet Jews' admiration for Stalin and the Soviet regime, even after their anti-semitism became apparent. Et plus ca change...
35  |  Jeff, Denver, Monday Sep 14, 2009
Rosner should know the difference between too and to. " But other than investing to much time and giving to much space to this unworthy debate," should read " But other than investing too much time and giving too much space to this unworthy debate,".
36  |  John S. Hancock, Monday Sep 14, 2009
He, obviously, wanted McCain elected to continue Bush's slavish policy of agreeing with whatever the Israelis want including being complicit with Israel's murder of Palestinians. Podhoertz is a dispicable human being, typical of pro-Israel apologists and enablers.
37  |  howard in iowa, Monday Sep 14, 2009
If I were an Israeli, I would never vote for Likud. So why, as an American, should I vote for our version of a fascist party, the Republicans. Do you really believe that Jews cannot have fascist tendencies?
38  |  jb, Monday Sep 14, 2009
It is possible that a country's stance vis-a-vis another country can be the strongest basis of its morality. Therefore those who wish to retain that high degree of morality for their own country, do not contradict their loyalty to their country by urging it, and supporting those of its leaders who choose to behave in that moral fashion toward the other country. This is especially the case for countries who are allies, friends and of a similar standing in moral conduct. It is reprehensible to set up a "dual-loyalty" dichotomy when the moral imperative is support.
39  |  Steve, Monday Sep 14, 2009
Tom's, "Israel looks at Bush as being the best president ever because he gave them whatever they wanted...#36's statement, "...Bush's slavish policy of agreeing with whatever the Israelis want...." illustrate Podhoretz, C. Krathammer and other like-minded Bush-apologists' rationale. "Relative" to other US presidents, Bush gave Israel what she wanted. Had Bush given us what we wanted, he would have recognized, post 9/11, Israel's enemies are America's enemies; that the jihad against Israel's Jews is part and parcel of the global jihad. Instead Bush made Israel a separate and distinct case.
40  |  Ben, Monday Sep 14, 2009
half of Jewish marriages are mixed.The assimilation stimulus influences the political views towards conformism-patriotic distance Israel
41  |  Laine Frajberg Montreal, Monday Sep 14, 2009
Response to Tom(the Jew hater) Bin Laddin attacked the U.S. because American troops were stationed in Saudi Arabia-not because of American support for Israel.Bush jr. invaded Iraq because Saddam had violated the ceasefire agreements which ended Gulf War 1-and was allegedly producing WMD.And the fact that Irving Kristol once flirted with communism does not say anything about his later views-which were STRONGLY anti-communist.Now go away.
42  |  Kenny E usa, Monday Sep 14, 2009
I don't give a damn about what anyone says about my loyalty to Israel. I love the USA and I served this country..and I would do it again if needed! But to me Israel and the USA are tied together in this war ...Yes war! Arent we fighting the same bastards that Israel is! Wahabbi Jihadi Islamics! Eric Hoffer, that longshore philosopher said it..and it still goes.."Israel is the barometer of the free world..and as it goes with Israel so goes the rest of us in the free West!" The proof is that many many non Jews (Christians) support Israel too..are they "not loyal to the USA?"
43  |  Tom, US, Monday Sep 14, 2009
41 | Laine - The fact remains that Saddam did NOT violate any cease fire. The invasion of Iraq was based on falsified evidence manufactured by the executive branch as well as evidence manufactured by the neocons through the media. Bin Laden and Al Qaeda attacked the US because of the US failed foreign policy of blind support for the zionist states ongoing occupation of the Palestinian concentration camps. My statement regarding the neocons being born full cloth out of communism I stand by. As long as US taxes fund Israel I will be right here.
44  |  John S. Hancock, Monday Sep 14, 2009
Kenny E why don't you peddle your nonsence to the survivors of the U.S.S. Liberty and to the relatives American human rights activists like Rachael Corrie who've the Israelis have murdered.
45  |  uri levin, Monday Sep 14, 2009
i gave you five stars but i regretted doing so when you called podhoertz's narrative "arrant nonsense". if you will excuse me how dare you sir?
46  |  Elizabeth, London, Monday Sep 14, 2009
Howard in Iowa, I would never doubt that Jews are capable of 'fascist' tendencies. However, these days those tendencies are found on the political Left, not the political Right. Totalitarianism, blood libel, deceit, demonization of dissent... Perhaps you should get out more.
47  |  uri levin, Monday Sep 14, 2009
no american jew has to feel attachment to israel if he does not feel tied to the jewish state of his own voilition.if american jews feel a loyalty to the democrats then that is an opinion they are entitled to.i am extremely upset as the thought that american jews are expected to act in a certain way against their wishes. our love for israel is a privilage that is devalued when others think we pressure them.gentlemen do as you please and no one will think the less of you.
48  |  uri levin, Monday Sep 14, 2009
the jewish electorate has voted left for decades.the russian communists rosa luxembourg the 1968 paris revolutionaries were proof enough of a left leaning community.for my part i do not understand why jews would vote for lleft wing parties.but that is their privilege and i would never dream of disuading them.
49  |  sean, Monday Sep 14, 2009
Had to stop reading after a few sentences - the spelling and grammar was so bad. Spellcheck it, repost it and it might get another chance... (???? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ???)
50  |  Laine Frajberg Montreal, Monday Sep 14, 2009
Final Response to tom(the Jew Hater): Just reading your dreck makes me physically sick.Bin Laddin,himself, admitted that he attacked your country because you stationed troops in Saudi Arabia-not because of non-existent concentration camps in Israel.In massacring the Shiites and the Kurds,Saddam violated the spirit-if not the letter of the ceasefire.The violation of the no-fly zone was a definite violation of the ceasefire.Irving Kristol was indeed once a Marxist but he later changed his mind and became a strong opponent of Communism.And now I think I'll PUKE.
51  |  tj, Tuesday Sep 15, 2009
the enemies of america....and israell....have friend in the white house. work hard to get congress out of the clutches of pelosi poison