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Monday Oct 26, 2009
Rosner's Domain: Whose Israel is it? well, ours + Mort's responsePosted by SHMUEL ROSNER
Comments: 54      Follow Rosner's Domain on Twitter! / Join me on Facebook! As much as I like Jo-Ann, her post "Whose Israel is it" was quite annoying to read. Here's a short glimpse: For me, Israel has always been about the promise of a Jewish identity that embraces social justice and otherness, that offers a safe haven for the Jewish people precisely because it is a state that embraces a notion of other-worldliness within its this-worldliness. But the Israel of today is not the Israel that I grew up yearning for; it is an Israel in dire need of a mid-century correction -- and it is an Israel that -- if we want a new generation to embrace -- needs to change its own ideas of who it is and what it wants. And my (gut) reaction: 1. Israel today is also not the Israel I grew up yearning for. Tough luck. I also had hopes to have a different kind of American Jewish community, and didn't get what I want. 2. If Israel needs change, the people living in Israel will have to decide. "Whose Israel is it?" - it's first and foremost Israelis' Israel 3. Jo-Ann says that "We cling to democracy as a way to defend our own rightful place in
America's polity. And these are the values we want to see -- but
don't -- in the Israel so many of us love". Jo-Ann wants "a Jewish state that embraces the same values that we hold
dear--democracy, support for human rights and the right to embrace your
individualism." I have one for her: It's called Israel. Not perfect, but close enough - as close as America gets. 4. And here's Mort's biggest mistake: She says that she wants "an Israel that supports values that are embedded in our Americanness and in our Jewishness". In essence, she wants Israelis to become more like, well, liberal American Jews. But they can't, and they won't, and they shouldn't. 5. And by the way - it doesn't even go hand in hand with what Mort herself believe: "we can promote our particularism as a way to weave into the pluralism", she writes. So why is it so hard for her to live with an Israel that isn't exactly what she was "yearning for"? --------- Update, Monday afternoon, Israel time: Jo-Ann sent her response to my post via email - and I'm happy to post it here: It is always a delight to debate with my friend Shmuel. A few points in response: As he knows do well, I love Israel warts and all - but that doesn't mean that Israel can't and shouldn't live up to it's own professed values which I believe will strengthen its security and democracy. By discussing the values that American Jews embrace I am not trying to supplant American liberalism to Israel. On the contrary. One of the strongest links between Israel and America are our joint values - Israel as a democracy. I strongly believe that unless Israel deals with pressing issues like the rise of Jewish fundamentalism inside Israel, growing inequality and a solution that ends the inhuman and unjust occupation of Palestinians to create a Palestinian state it is both putting its own future at risk and weakening, too, a link which I believe should be very strong- the link of world Jewry. ----------- Update, Monday evening. Rosner writing: Jo-Ann, I'm not quite sure what to say. Of course you love Israel. But can you still love it even though it's not exactly what you've imagined or dreamed about? As far as I can see, you didn't yet respond to most of the points I was making, and as for your desire to see "a solution that ends the inhuman and unjust occupation..." - I want one to. But it's not exactly in my power, so let me just quote something Defense Minister and Labor leader Ehud Barak had said a couple of hours ago in a meeting with Party members: "The Left is acting like a small child, that says, 'I want peace'. This is the difference between a child and an adult. The Child says: I want candy here and now, and the adult must understand the entirety of the considerations and understand who is on the other side." I think he has a point. ----------- Update, Monday later in the evening. I promissed Jo-Ann to have the last word. Here it is: With all due respect, I do not think that Ehud Barak's words are helpful to any sort of an argument. A comment like his simply shuts down discussion and debate. I do believe that , regarding a two state solution and even more so-unprecedented peace with Israel's neighbors -- there is an option. There is an Arab peace initiative worth discussing, just for a starter. Point by point re your post:1. Israel today is also not the Israel I grew up yearning for. Tough luck. I also had hopes to have a different kind of American Jewish community, and didn't get what I want. My response: his is not about tough luck - you didn't get what you want - it is about fighting for what you believe in. 2. If Israel
needs change, the people living in Israel will have to decide. "Who's
Israel is it?" - it's first and foremost Israelis' Israel . Shmuel - are you saying that the American Jewish community should play no role in Israeli society ? If so, then you are implying that we should support Israeli policies with a blank check. 3. Jo-Ann says that "We cling to democracy as a way to defend our own rightful place in
America's polity. And these are the values we want to see -- but
don't -- in the Israel so many of us love". Jo-Ann wants "a Jewish state that embraces the same values that we hold
dear--democracy, support for human rights and the right to embrace your
individualism." I have one for her: It's called Israel. Not perfect, but close enough - as close as America gets. I believe that not perfect is not good enough, especially with all of the pressing social and economic and religious issues that Israel faces today. 4. And here's Mort's biggest mistake: She says that she wants "an Israel that supports values that are embedded in our Americanness and in our Jewishness". In essence, she wants Israelis to become more like, well, liberal American Jews. But they can't, and they won't, and they shouldn't. As I said, I believe that America and Israel share democratic ideals-ideals worth striving for... 5. And by the way - it doesn't even go hand in hand with what Mort herself believe: "we can promote our particularism as a way to weave into the pluralism", she writes. So why is it so hard for her to live with an Israel that isn't exactly what she was "yearning for"? Precisely
because I love Israel I believe that we must fight (and yes, the we
includes American Jews) for an Israel that promotes pluralism and
tolerance both within its borders and in the region.
1 | YM, New Jersey, Monday Oct 26, 2009
Interestingly, there are Israeli political parties that share Jo-Ann's view. These parties have been trounced in the last two Israeli elections. Some of us only like democracy when it produces the "correct" result.
2 | RB, Monday Oct 26, 2009
She's just another braindead American liberal Obama-supporting Jew. Is it even worth commenting?
3 | Yacov Yosifovitch NYc :WE [i] art ALL "SABRAS" On S.S. EARTH, Monday Oct 26, 2009
Ummm, there maybe a Sanity to her insanity no? According to the JUDEO-abe-JU + JUDEO-abe-Christo + JUDEO-abe-Islamics + JUDEO-Vedic + JUDEO-vedic-Budhhists +... that a 'Sabra'fruit is not only a blessseth/healthy thing that (Sweet of course) THEY-grow in All Continents & deserts on S.pace S.hip Earth(s). But a "S-A-B-R-A/O" means an "iSRAELITE" or iSRAELi Born, not in Sweet Sweet AMERICA, but In Sweet Sweet ERETZ YiSROEL, WE'r-back in"JERUSALEM AGAIN" & now Forever promoting Human-Progress, not JEAOUSY! &G-D Bless the HAGGANA our Brave BOYS&GIRLS,LOVERS ofG-D/LiFE/PEACE/FREEDOM/HEALING...&FRIENDS!
4 | Daran, UK, Monday Oct 26, 2009
Ym just as Hamas was elected , a mandate is very important no doubt, it does not mean that other nations need support the views of those elected. The views of people in the current admin, are regarded as "racist" and belligerent by others (rightly or wrongly). If the gov in Israel is considered the "obstacle " to furtherance of the stated aim of the UN , EU and the US namely a Palestinian state, then others might move beyond Israel's concerns and support unilateral declaration by the Palestinians. Thus those elected to be the protection of aims(blocs and Jerusalem) end by undermining them.
5 | Yacov Yosifovitch :"HISTORY" is "O.U.R." Jury,Judge nWittnes, Monday Oct 26, 2009
continued: ALL ISRAELI's should "Automatically" be granted/issued , by AMERICA exclusively (to Appease the Judeo-abe-ISLAMICS & friends), a special "OPEN TRAVEL DOCUMENT" in case "WW-III-THREE(3)!" Every one of US "HUeMATE-kinds (not HUMANs-unkinds anymore) recognize that ALL "SABRA/O"s [Ladys & Gents] here? are "Automatic-Born Citizenz/Denizens" of S.pace-S.hip Earth(s)! And "IT" {Not a HE nor a SHE, NOT-a-JEALOUS-G-D} miraculously "TRANSFiNiZED US to our current state&calandate so far, 5770+(2010+) = NEVER BACK!. Soo Every-1 is a SABRA/O trying to hav-aHolyi-joly-Good-Cosmic-TIME, in Bad!?
6 | Boris, Jerusalem, Monday Oct 26, 2009
We - Israelis - really should not have to seek absolution from American Liberal Jews. Rather, they should explain how dare they to lecture us how to live our lives.
7 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Monday Oct 26, 2009
I would very much recommend reading today's blog post on Zionist Conspiracy - it may seem a bit off-topic until you think about what it implies about liberalism & more so, today's unholy alliance of Leftists & Islamic fascists. Being naive can be hazardous to your health.
8 | Backstop, Monday Oct 26, 2009
There is a simple course of action for Ms. Mort. Make aliyah. Become part of Israel to make it what she is "yearning for". In the words of the Jewish sage Bob (Dylan) Zimmerman in "The Times They Are a Changin'", "Don't criticize what you can't understand".
I may not agree with everything or even a good deal of what Israelis believe and do but they are the ones who have chosen to be there and put themselves on the line. There is no lack of mutual and self-criticism in Israel. They do not need more of the same from those who don't wish to assume the same risks.
9 | ZionLion, Monday Oct 26, 2009
I have no idea who this Jo-Ann lady is, but she sure sounds like an American-centric clueless woman and quite arrogant too. She shouldn't worry about us, somehow I think we'll make it through without her help.
If you want to change Israel, first of all get yourself here, pay your taxes, send your kids to the army. If not, with all due respect, shut up and stop preaching.
10 | Howiej NJ/USA, Monday Oct 26, 2009
There is an ancient Jewish prayer that Jo-Ann and her ilk must learn because they will need it should all of their hopes be met. It is called "Kaddish."
11 | Jae US, Monday Oct 26, 2009
American Jews are no example, and as an American jew I can relate the sad fact that 90% of jewish people today will have no Jewish ancestors by the next century.
Do the math:
Reform/uninformed Jews assimilation rate, at present is over 80%
Conervative is at 50%
After 4 generations the 1 million Jews you start off with are now reduced to less than 10% of the original.
So, no, Israel you are the future and american jewry is on its way out over the next century. Dont listen to self proclaimed lecturers whose Jewish knowledge, and identity is looser than a 3 yr olds shoelaces
12 | PZ, Monday Oct 26, 2009
Rosner, I'm surprised a fellow Zionist would be so comfortable writing off the interests of world Jewry in the happenings of the Jewish state. If your answer to the question, "Who's Israel is it?" really is going to be just a simple "Well, 'ours'," well then suddenly you're not left with much of a response for post-Zionists and one-staters demanding "nothing more" than a "state for all its citizens." Is this what you want? I assume it isn't.
13 | Duncan Lennox, Monday Oct 26, 2009
Israel is run by Zionists. Regardless of what the rest of the country feels or wants it is & always has been based on policies decided by elite Zionists. It has worked. By subterfuge they stole a homeland in Pal`n at the expense of the indigenous population. ie By ethnic cleansing ,750K refugees and 425 villages & 12 urban centers in 1948 alone plus stealing half of the Arab portion allotted to Pals by the UN. A good start but not enough for the Zions who have continued the process for 60 yrs. It is only 150 yrs since Darwin`s "Origin of Species". Time is not on Judaism`s/Israel`s side.
14 | Efi, Monday Oct 26, 2009
To Duncan the brainwashed zombie
Saying Israel is run by Zionists is like saying Egypt is run by Arab nationalists or American is run by US patriots. Zionism is the liberation movement of the Jewish people. Many nations have their own liberation movements that founded their states. You seem not to know that almost 1 million Jews who lived for centuries in Arab lands were ethnically cleansed by Arab governments in 1948, had their homes stolen, became refugees, and absorbed by Israel. More Jews became refugees in 48 than Arabs.
15 | Per Larsson Sweden, Monday Oct 26, 2009
DONT CALL DARK MUSLIM SWEDISH!!!THEY HAVE INVADE SWEDEN BEAUCAUSE OUR GOVERMENT PITTY AFRICANS; AND MUSLIM PEOPLE; SURE; MANY; MANY OF THESE INVADERS HAVE SOULS LIKE CROCODILES!!!!PEOLE OF SWEDEN STAR TO GET ENOUGH OF THEM!!!!!
16 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Monday Oct 26, 2009
#15 Per Larsson - Sweden. You guys are in BIG trouble.
17 | YM, Monday Oct 26, 2009
Duncan, the Jews are the indigenous population. Rome, on behalf of the West, stole it from us. Now, if, in order to create a peaceful relationship between us and the arab population who is also living here, or more accurately, squatting here, we are willing to divide the land into a Palestinian state and a Jewish state, that is fine, but it doesn't change the fact that it is ours. Furthermore, the occupation of Judea and Samaria is unjust and inhuman all right - to us! The Palestinians won't agree to take it without Jerusalem and allowing millions of Arabs to move to Israel. No!
18 | Cry, USA, Monday Oct 26, 2009
Liberals live in some bizarre world far divorced from reality. The problem in the Mideast is not the values of Israel and the problems in the Mideast will not be solved if Liberals saw in Israel the fantasy humanistic tendencies of make belief Shangri-La. To understand Israel and its security issues and what it must do to be safe is to contemplate two scenarios. Imagine if Israel disarms unilaterally and cries for peace. Imagine if the Arabs disarmed unilaterally and cried for peace. In one instance there would be peace, in the other massacres, atrocities and genocide. Take a guess.
19 | Yacov Yosifovitch :Wahabi-bi's? "AL TAQIYAH"izm has risen, Monday Oct 26, 2009
BEHOLD Todays QURANAHOLIC "AL TAQIYAH"s IZlam-Scare/Conspiracy, not Only COMMYscare. Fact; According their "THE-ELDERS-OF-"AL-TAQIYAH" Books (not Zion); a 'secret/stealthy Muhamedian-word' to Muslim/Moslum/Muzlemen-Umma of-Matyres is code-word for "World Domination" & eventual 'Submission' (of ISLAM) accomplishing it slowly, babys bybaby, sura bySura, promote Jealousy/Hate by-Media, bribe byBribe, Minaret by minaret, Threat by threat, DISTRACT by trouble until OUR-Earth? is all ISLAMIC[Similar Delusional-illusion. Beware a New/NEO-Shia-TURKISH-FASCIST-CALIFiGHTS & CO.,readying for ME JIHADD!?
20 | Moises, Panama, Monday Oct 26, 2009
The main problem with J-Street expressing these views is that THEY ARE NOT ISRAELIS. They will not be the ones putting their children in danger because of their suggestions. To push compromise from their end is the definition of arrogance and disregard for others - do they believe that Israelis are acting against their own interests when their own lives are at stake?
That is why, as a diaspora Jew, I believe the right thing is to support the decisions of the Israeli people as a democracy instead of creating organizations to make other governments impose on our brothers in Israel.
21 | Harry S usa, Monday Oct 26, 2009
Per Larsson of Sweden...please dont let those "dark muslims" ruin those beautiful blonde Swedish girls! When I was in Stockholm, I feel in love 15 times a day! "Crocodiles" is a good description of the goofy Islamic mentality. Per...I wish u luck in getting rid of them...all Europe is in the same lousy position. Soon there will be more Mosques than churches! Those nice Swedish beauties...oi vey...please dont lose them!
22 | Eric Canada, Monday Oct 26, 2009
Palestinian nationalism is the biggest scam in history. The Arabs are not native to Palestine. They're native to Arabia. Why do you think so many ancient Palestinians have names like Al Masri and Al Mugrabhi? Is the arabic language native to Palestine? The ancient Palestinians are people that migrated from Egypt, Syria and elsewhere to find jobs that the Zionists created as they were building up desolate and barren Palestine 1870-1948. And Arabs continue to migrate to Israel to this day!
23 | Yudi F usa, Monday Oct 26, 2009
It's amazing that we Jews are not all in the "nuthouse"! With all our enemies around, we still manage to fight amongst ourselves! From the more moderate Jo Ann, "J" Street types to the traitoresque Noah Chomsky's and Rabbi Lerner's on the exteme "left" to the goofy Haredi Orthos who hate Zionism on the extreme "right". Our anti-Semitic enemies must relish it! No wonder we Jews have paranioid genes floating in our Hebraic bodies! Are we Jews victims of all the Anti-semitc propaganda lies told about us? Deicide! Blood Libel! Plagues! Anything evil is blamed on Jews! .... continued..
24 | JTC USA, Monday Oct 26, 2009
Liberalism is like cancer. If you catch it early enough and cut it out you can save your country. But, if you are slow to act and do nothing, then it will be too late, as it is here in the U.S.
25 | yudel F usa, Monday Oct 26, 2009
After all, I suppose there is good reason to hate us Jews..we gave the world God! The ten Commandments! Jesus!, and even Allah is from the "monotheistic" Jews. Where did Allah come from...the Eskimos! Plus add all the wonderful gifts from Jews thru out the centuries in sceince, medicine, business, and many inventions that make life better for all peoples. Not that we Jews are better than anybody.."chosen" for what? To get a kick in Tuchas! Its a wonder we Jews are all not nuts after 4000 yrs of Pogroms! Maybe we Jews should have kept God a secret! Oh well, win some ..lose some!
26 | JoelF, Monday Oct 26, 2009
27 | JoelF, Monday Oct 26, 2009
Mort is just another example of an american "fuzzy-liberal". Fuzzies have all embraced the humanist belief that all people are wonderful,caring human beings if only their "basic rights" are honored. But people who see the world with their eyes open will immediately notice that lots of folks will happily kill other folks because of their definition of "basic rights". Fuzzies just don't get it. This whole story just highlights the philosophical disconnect american jews have with reality.
28 | Lungie Lungquist, Monday Oct 26, 2009
From Swedes lips to G-d's ears.
29 | Mike Feldman Canada, Tuesday Oct 27, 2009
Duncan. You should try graffitti. Just find a wall and scrawl all you bs and hope no one paints over it. That would save you the trouble of popping up now and then and repeating the same old discredited junk you keep trying to peddle. Have you ever had a new thought?
30 | Joe, New York, Tuesday Oct 27, 2009
"If Israel needs change, the people living in Israel will have to decide. "Who's Israel is it?" - it's first and foremost Israelis' Israel "
And this is coming from someone who for months held a weekly panel of Israelis to decide who would be the best US President?!!?
31 | MELODY USA, Tuesday Oct 27, 2009
i am so tired of people!..... israel is the jewish peopleland!,plain and simple...its in the old testament and the torah!...i believe what g-d says and jesus!...i am a christian from usa,why cann'r people get along and enjoy g-d's pretty world he gave us to live in.i pray everyday for g-d to stop all this mess.i want peace AND LOVE BETWEEN ALL OF US..TO LIVE IN PEACE WITH EACH OTHER.I WANT TO COME TO ISRAEL SO BAD.BUT I AM BROKE, IN A WHEELCHAIR.I CAN WALK ALITTLE.I LOVE YOU ALL! AMEN
32 | bannister, USA, Tuesday Oct 27, 2009
Enjoy it while you can, It may always be a home for the Jews but it will never be safe until the Palestinians are satisfied.
33 | Daniel-Atlanta, Tuesday Oct 27, 2009
Actually, yudel #25, Jews have done a pretty good job of keeping God a secret, even from themselves!
34 | Chris USA, Tuesday Oct 27, 2009
I love this debate! There's a sense in which Israel must awaken from its history to avoid repeating the mistakes of the past. The struggle for perfection is a life long ambition never fully realized yet it is the struggle which defines the person. Israel's national identity is a composition of these collective influences. Barak's statement is indeed true and wise, yet there's more to be said. The infinite complexity of the future unwinds like tracks for a train. To change the direction we must begin building it now one track at a time! (What it means to be alive is to affect our environment)
35 | Jacob, USA, Tuesday Oct 27, 2009
FYI: It's "Whose". "Who's" means "who is" ("Who's at the door?"), or "who has" when the "has" is part of a past perfect verb phrase ("Who's finished reading this book?").
36 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Tuesday Oct 27, 2009
#35 Jacob, USA. Thank you so much for the grammar lesson, this is something that has been bothering me for quite some time & I really appreciate your elucidation (I'm not being sarcastic either).
In any case, your comment has more practical application than all the rest of the blah, blah, blah we usually get on this forum.
37 | Israeli Top Gun, Tuesday Oct 27, 2009
#30 Bannister if you want the "palestinians" "satisfied" just get them to start another war with Israel and
SATISFACTION GUARANTEED.
38 | Israeli Top Gun, Tuesday Oct 27, 2009
#30 Bannister if you want the "palestinians" "satisfied" just get them to start another war with Israel and
SATISFACTION GUARANTEED.
39 | benson, Tuesday Oct 27, 2009
Sorry but Israel can't be like america. America is a superpower between two oceans. Israel
is a tiny country with wolves just across the fence. No other country is capable of
destroying America. Israel is very vulnerable. No other country threatens the american people
with extermination. The Jewish have seen that threat carried out before, and that threat
is now in the charter of Hamas and the "mainstream plaestinians, The minorities in america
don't side with its enemies. Many of the Arabs in israel do side its enemies and Arabs are 20%
of the population. Keep all this in mind.
40 | Mike Feldman, Canada, Tuesday Oct 27, 2009
Give me just one example (other than this post), where the behaviour of the citizens of one country are subject to the appoval of thieir behaviour by citizens of another country. What might be interesting here is a comprehensive study comparing and contrasting the attitudes of American and Israeli Jews towards a number of issues. The attitudes of Israelis Jews towards American Jews has, largely, already been revealed.
41 | Moshavnik, ISrael, Tuesday Oct 27, 2009
I think the biggest problem in communications between Israel and American Jews is that liberal American Jews don't understand that most Israelis after years of suicide bombings, missiles and incitement from the Palestinians have zero belief in the Oslo "peace process".
42 | Mark N.Y. N.Y.S, Tuesday Oct 27, 2009
Jo Ann Moert i always thought of as a Gossip columnist for the leftists
43 | Duncan Lennox, Tuesday Oct 27, 2009
To:# 17 YM. Todays Israelis are colonizers that have used ethnic cleansing to create a homeland in Pal`n. That is fact. That is history. Zionism holds that ethnic cleansing is OK based on the end result. Jews have no special claim to the Levant. Even Israeli archaeologists agree that the original proto-Israelites C1200 BC were minor tribes of native Canaanites & that there was no Exodus ,Joshua invasion ,ergo no Moses ,covenant or promised land. Historians say that not until C200BC was there ANY real Jewish central authority in Pal`n. It lasted 150yrs. Colonizing Pal`n on this basis is wrong
44 | Daran, UK, Tuesday Oct 27, 2009
#40 interesting point Mike, you don't hear many calls for Abe Foxman to make aliyah before his opinions are "allowed". I do have some sympathy with "the sharp end" point of view of some post's but some times being "in it" does not help get get an "overview"
45 | Carlos Italy - Lebanon, Tuesday Oct 27, 2009
Heck, I'm half Arab(Christian) and I'd stand by the Jewish state before an Arab state any day. Too much critcism, racism and hatred towards the Jews here... I love what Israel has become, I love where they have reached till today, and I approve with every decision they make..
Surrounded by countries that deny her existence, and want her destoryed, yet she still stands strong, hah and they call Israel the cowards.... God has blessed that great land!! Palestine cannot be made a state, if Israel lets Palestine go, then expect total chaos in Palestine, then imagine what would happen to Israel..
46 | Mike Feldman, Canada, Tuesday Oct 27, 2009
#44 Daran. I think Abe Foxman's views towards anti-Semitism and his views on things that matter to Jews living in America certainly do not require him to make aliyah. I think what I missed properly stating in my #40 is that Jewish lobbbyists such as J Street seek to influence internal politics in Israel. This perception that Western Jews know what's best for Israel is unknown among other religions. For example, and I know you don't require one, French citizens are unlikely to defer to German opinion because they both happen to be Catholic. The exception might be Islamists who do not separate church from state and therefore do not recognize national sovereignty.
47 | Fabio Brazil, Tuesday Oct 27, 2009
American jews, please, you have already "la mauvaise conscience" concerning Holocaust..You did so much nothing to save the Jewish People in Europe from Hitler. Please, just stay quiet...Let Israeli people defend himself and let Tzavá do their job. If you want to help, support republicans...We need no more "god jewish socialist boys"...
48 | f in jerusalem, Wednesday Oct 28, 2009
I'm with you Shmuel but ouch: It's "Whose Israel is it" not "Who's Israel is it."
49 | Daran, UK, Wednesday Oct 28, 2009
Mike, Foxman certainly seems to be against "loyalty oath" idea are his views not an attempt to influence policy when he says "I have a lot of problems with the proposed language because by including a pledge to Zionism it smacks of discrimination, Also I'm not sure that the other point you raise about Catholics trying to influence other catholics in a another state is correct, consider the so called "liberation catholicism" of South America and how it was viewed by opus dio/conservative minded catholics elsewhere.
50 | Mike Feldman, Canada, Wednesday Oct 28, 2009
Daran. If Foxman is expressing his views on Zionism then he may be critical of Israeli policy. I'm not sure visiting Israel would change that. It would be naive to expect Jews outside of Israel to be in lock step with the thinking of Jews inside Israel. However, it is my opinion that Israeli policies are best left to the Israelis. Typical of Jews (excuse the stereotype), there is no shortage of opinion. You bring up an interesting point with liberation catholicism. However, here we are looking at political activism mixed with relligious beliefs and my point referred to countries who have separated church from state.
51 | Hal, Raleigh NC, USA, Saturday Oct 31, 2009
Don't worry Duncan, I hope Israel will reclaim all of the promised land before too much longer.
52 | Hal, Raleigh NC, USA, Saturday Oct 31, 2009
Don't worry Duncan, I hope Israel will reclaim all of the promised land before too much longer.
53 | Daran, UK, Saturday Oct 31, 2009
Terry, Has Israel separated "church", don't politicians choose Rabbi's for the rabbinate in Israel not to mention the shariah judges it "employs". also I was trying to point to Foxman seeking to influence Israeli policy by his statement about loyalty oaths, in opposition, it seems, to aims of political parties in Israel. I already said I have no little sympathy with the people who are in Israel. Who suggest that those outside opinions carry less weight than maybe them that serve and pay taxes and so on.... . All those who support Israel (from outside) can do, is call it as they see it.
54 | Daran, Uk, Saturday Oct 31, 2009
Sorry Mike,
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