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Thursday Oct 29, 2009
Rosner's Domain: The real meaning of Livni's letter to J StreetPosted by SHMUEL ROSNER
Comments: 31 Follow Rosner's Domain on Twitter! / Join me on Facebook! So what's the story with Kadima's Tzipi Livni and J Street? The founder of J Street had told Hilary Krieger that "The party and the viewpoint that we're closest to in Israeli politics is actually Kadima". If that's the case, Livni will be delighted, but she doesn't consider it to be good description of either Kadima's positions nor J Street's. It was also widely reported that Livni had sent J Street a letter, and this letter was interpreted by some (J Street activists included) as letter of support. Here's the JTA report: Livni, of the Kadima Party, said she could not participate in J Street's Oct. 25-28 event, but wished the group "much success" at the conference. Livni said she and J Street, a lobbying group that bills itself as "pro-Israel, pro-peace," shared a similar "vision" of a two-state solution. Steve Clemons called the letter "this thoughtful and politically meaningful expression of support for J Street's work". But here are the real facts behind this letter. 1. Livni did not want to participate in the conference, and did not want to appear via video connection. The letter is a way of saying: I'm not boycotting the group, but I'm also quite far from supporting it. 2. The letter was crafted "carefully". And it does not say that Livni wishes the group "much success", it says (as Clemons, first to post the letter, could have seen) "I wish the the organizers and the participants much success in the upcoming conference". You might think that Livni's people are parsing hair with this fine-tuned message, but when the letter was crafted they deliberately chose to wish success for the "conference" not the "work" as Clemons claims. 3. I have reason to believe that the heads of AIPAC were not surprised by this letter. 4. I know for a fact that Livni still feels much closer to AIPAC. It is not yet scheduled, but I also believe that she will make an effort to demonstrate her affinity by showing up at the AIPAC annual conference. 5. Some people have told Livni that J Street leaders was using her letter shrewdly. It serves them well by way of giving credence to their claim that (as the BBC described it): "Opinion in Israel seems divided though; Israeli opposition leader Tzipi Livni and President Shimon Peres both both sent J Street warm messages of support". She seems not to care much about it. 6. Livni was able to discuss all matters related to this thorny issue in a meeting she's having this week with AIPAC's Howard Kohr. 7. All this doesn't mean that Livni's letter has no significance. It does. If Livni was Foreign Minister today, she would have asked Ambassador Michael Oren to attend the conference. She doesn't think Israel should boycott J Street, because she doesn't believe Israel should take sides in a debate that is a political Jewish American debate. 8. She also have hopes that by way of "engaging", she can have some impact on this group. There are signs that J Street - at least on the leadership level - had entered a period of some moderation (Jim Besser wrote: "There were also ripples of discontent at an unofficial Monday lunch for
left-wing bloggers, who expressed both hope that J Street will become a
potent force for peace and justice in the Middle East - and fear that
it is already doing too much to moderate its positions to win favor
with the pro-Israel establishment"). Livni seems to believe that communicating with the group creates the kind of relationships that will make it harder for J Street to disregard Israeli mainstream positions.
1 | Merv, Thursday Oct 29, 2009
finally, someone who can give us facts rather than bullshit.
2 | Tod Zuckerman , San Francisco, Thursday Oct 29, 2009
I have another idea . Livni knows that U.S. Zionists ( Jews and Christians) are frightened by her weakness, unintelligence, and extreme personal ambition. Therefore, she thought she could score some points with this predominantly anti-Zionist group and the Obama Administration ( just compare Jones' speech to J Street with his taped address to AIPAC and you will see which group Obama prefers) by writing this foolish letter of support. However, it will backfire - Livni is even scarier to U.S. Zionists and, hopefully, her countrymen as a result of this letter.
3 | sol, Thursday Oct 29, 2009
This was Livni's last gaffe in a brief and lackluster period at the top of Israeli politics.
Anyone who is stupid enough to view J-Street as a 'political American Jewish debate' has no place in the government of a country which lives every day under existential threat.
Let's be clear. J-Street is an instrument funded by Soros and given legitimacy by Jim Jones and his witless president, to defang AIPAC. Nothing delights Walt & Mearsheimer and others of their ilk more than this prospect.
By next year Livni will be a footnote, Kadima will be spilt or under new leadership. Good riddance!
4 | dan haifa, Thursday Oct 29, 2009
Livni hits the government on everything and because Oren wasn't going she hit them on this. Livni even hit the government for the suspension of an upgrade wtih the EU when that suspension happened when Livni was in power in january during the gaza war. But Livni said nothing about it at the time but the second she left the government she turned around and blamed Bibi for it when there was an article about israel's ties with europe.
5 | psk, Thursday Oct 29, 2009
"I know for a fact that" is a bad way to begin a sentence. If Rosner doesn't understand why it's bad style, he should read a good style-book. If he doesn't know what it's bad epistemology, he should read Wittgenstein, *Über Gewissheit*. Since he probably wont do either, I'll explain. "That is a tree" doesn't need the words "I know that..." in front of it. "Livni said" vs. "I know that Livni said", ditto. "I know that" does nothing to strengthen the proposition. Compare "It rained today" with "I know it rained today." Tell us how you know. Saying you know proves nothing.
6 | yoram, Thursday Oct 29, 2009
psk, will you give us all a brake? posts are means for discussing content and issues, not your sense of style.
7 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Thursday Oct 29, 2009
Does it matter what Livni says or does? Kadima is a spent force, heading off to a well-deserved political oblivion. Livni's career is pretty much over, she isn't even a has-been, she's a ''never-was'' - so why she sent a letter to J-Street is an irrelevent topic, as irrelevent as Livni herself. Likud under Netanyahu is the new Centre, in no way a right-wing party. In the Israeli context, even Lieberman is a centrist. Both Kadima & :Labour are fast becoming as marginal as Meretz.
8 | Manuel H. Lazerov, Thursday Oct 29, 2009
Livni is irrelevant, and her policies have been soundly repudiated by the electorate. Her collusive efforts with the Obama administration and with J Street to undermine the the PM's coalition only serve to undermine Israel itself, of which she is fully aware. Ambition trumps patriotism with her--always. Casting around for relevance, she comes up with ludicrous ideas such as being tried at The Hague,and supporting J Street. Like some petulant teenager, one can only imagine what she will come up with next. It's amusing to contemplate; but, one can be assured that it won't be good for Israel.
9 | Jonah in Jamaica, Thursday Oct 29, 2009
We should not allow ourselves to be hoodwinked. Reaching out,even marginally, to J Street, to in some form exhibit moderation or attempt to moderate J Street is the equivilent of trying to moderate or claim moderation in a segment of Al Qaida, or the Iranian mullahs.If Livni does not see or understand this she should be sent into political exile.
10 | Mark Jeffery Koch Cherry Hill, New Jersey USA, Thursday Oct 29, 2009
Livni made a huge mistake in sending the letter and recognizing the group. An organization that believes Israel is the main obstacle to peace in the Middle East and accuses the IDF of war crimes and asks the President of the United States to pressure Israel is no friend of Israel and these people even resent being called "pro-Israel" which should be baffling to any Jew anywhere. Differences of opinion are normal among Jews and Israelis but one draws a line in the sand when a Jew supports a boycott of Israel, the Goldstone Report, & trusts Hamas, Syria and Hezbollah more than they do Israel.
11 | psk, Thursday Oct 29, 2009
for #6 = «yoram». // Style and substance are related. They are profoundly related in law. They are related in Talmud or in any philosophical study of thought. That said, I am not sure that it is you that determines what the posts are for. Does your post say anything about the article? Mine does.
12 | PZ, Thursday Oct 29, 2009
Hahaha, so according to Rosner (and, apparently, some of his AIPAC contacts), when J-Street disagrees with Israel's PM, its "presumptuous"; but for AIPAC itself, its perfectly ok to think it can boss around Israel's opposition leader, a former foreign minister and the head of the largest party in the Knesset? If any of this is really true, then Eilati Terry has it perfectly backwards: AIPAC is becoming the spent force, afraid of newcomers and protecting institutional turf at all costs. All told, I really hope Livni has a "calendar conflict" and misses AIPAC meet -- will send the best message.
13 | Daran, UK, Thursday Oct 29, 2009
Terry, Can't Kadima claim (rightly) they got more votes than Likud, does that mean Likud is a spent force. I doubt you think it does. Can Bibi's (or likud for that matter) coalition survive going to the table with Palis, with Jerusalem and the bloc's on the table? guess who turns "kingmaker" she may demand Shamir/Peres type deal. Therefore could be PM before another election, hardly "irrelevant". And I notice those heads of state and visiting diplomats don't share your assessment when visiting Israel. Given the meetings she has with them.
14 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Thursday Oct 29, 2009
#13 Daran. The israeli public has moved more to the right since the election. Israelis are, by & large, far more realistic than they were at the time of the election. My views are much further right than today's Likud positions but Netanyahu is getting high marks from most of the Israeli electorate. Don't worry about future negotiations with the Palestinians - there won't be any. Abbas & his Fatah clowns are already quite unpopular with their population & so they become more radical to gain support.
15 | Seymour in Berkeley, Thursday Oct 29, 2009
I think Livni's letter of "support" to J Street has less to do with the latter than with internal Israeli politics. She is trying to present herself to the Israeli electorate as being more open than Netanyahu to a peace process with the Palestinians. She is implying she could do better if she were the PM. Given her past statements as FM, it is doubtful that even if Kadima came to power much would change in the foreign policy realm or in negotiations with the Palestinians. She simply wants to create the illusion of the grass being greener in Kadima than in Likud.
16 | Mark - USA, Thursday Oct 29, 2009
Daran, "spent force" might be a bit strong, but Likud won far more representation in the 18th Knesset than they had in the 17th, whereas Kadima's diminished slightly...and "right-wing" parties won a majority, whereas "left-wing" parties had won a majority in the previous election...so Kadima at least has traces of appearing to be a spent force...and given the way that party was cobbled together from pieces of other parties, in many cases with little in common, I'd guess it won't get any better for them...
17 | David, Thursday Oct 29, 2009
If Rosner is correct, and it appears to me he is, this episode agian illustrates why Livni is unsuited to be the leader of a major political party. She provied a written statement that, at best, is ambiguous and, from my reading, is much more likely implicitly supportive of J Street. She thus legitimizes an organization that is acting contrary to Israel's interests and, for example, is lobbying AGAINST action being taken on Iran. She is too naive to realize this letter will be used by J Street. She compounds the error by believing, again naively, that she can moderate J Street by engaging it.
18 | Bill Collins, Spokane, Thursday Oct 29, 2009
To trust an idiot? Yes, I'm talking about Livni. Still I can't dismiss her or her traitorous associates involved within the Kadima party. In a while, they will be in power. Maybe a few years but then bam, economics will force a change and people will forget about the issue of security. Pie in the sky peace forced upon Israel with no means of verification. Lies will become the new truth, the buck will replace verification, and then war will become reality. Meanwhile, Livni will simply step back and cheerlead for the side attacking Israel. Good luck!
19 | Daran, UK, Thursday Oct 29, 2009
Terry , Bibi is calling for negotiations today, you hanging your hopes on Abbas now? I accept that recent elections moved the "center " of Israeli politics to the right. Kadima still secured more votes than Likud. It may well be, Bibi's is in "Nixon to China" position and only the "right" of Israel politics can secure the necessary "concesus" within Israel for any deal.
20 | Ellen, Thursday Oct 29, 2009
Livni is a professional poitician. And not of the first class rating. In additon, she is a borderline narcissist who cares only for her own immediate possiblities. Given them, she will betray all around her. Beware Israel, for the serpent in the grass. And while you are at it; did you know: there is nothing more pathetic than an out of work politican! Livni certainly knows this! And is working hard at avoiding it!
21 | Ellen Berkeley, Thursday Oct 29, 2009
Livni is a professional poitician. And not of the first class rating. In additon, she is a borderline narcissist who cares only for her own immediate possiblities. Given them, she will betray all around her. Beware Israel, for the serpent in the grass. And while you are at it; did you know: there is nothing more pathetic than an out of work politican! Livni certainly knows this! And is working hard at avoiding it!
22 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Thursday Oct 29, 2009
#19 Daran. I trust the Palestinians to screw up any possible opportunity. They don't want peace with us, they want to eliminate our state which is why there will never be any agreement. Abbas & his Fatah terrorists cannot deliver anyway - what would a Fatah signature mean? Nothing. Terrorism would continue & any new Palestinian entity would become a failed terrorist state, a proxy of Iran, just like Gaza. You place the onus on Israel but it is the Arab side which has blocked peace for 60 years & they will continue to do so. Peace is not their goal, continued hostility serves them too well.
23 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Thursday Oct 29, 2009
#19 Daran. I might add that in all liklihood, Israeli public opinion will continue moving to the right - this process is ongoing. Realism is replacing the delusional thinking of the post-Oslo years, the rise of Hamas in Gaza has been a real lesson to many former Leftists. The total unfairness of the recent Goldstone libel may have marked another turning point for many. The impotence of the ''international community'' to stop Iran is the real issue of the Middle East, not Palestine, which is at best, a side-show, a red herring. The main event is Iran.
24 | Mike Feldman Canada, Thursday Oct 29, 2009
Daran. Its not hard for Bibi to appear stateman like and call for negotiations when he knows the Palestinian leadership will rebuke his request. Behind his requests are simple, yet impossible conditions, such as the regonition of Israel as a Jewish state, and its right to live in peace and security. These seem like simple requests, but they are anathema to anyone wishing to retain power with the Palestinians. I think part of Terry's point is that election day marked a point in time, and while many may have held their noses and voted for Bibi, his approval for the job has risen since then, while Kadina has lost relevance. Facts on the ground are not likely to change the trend.
25 | Dr. Dan USA, Friday Oct 30, 2009
Livni is rude and has not hesitated to undermine Israel and Prime Minister Netanyahu on many occasions. She wants to make the world believe Israel would support giving up sovereignty over Jerusalem and that the prime minister and foreign minister are bad guys for disagreeing with what she offered to give away to Arab control.
26 | Daran, UK, Friday Oct 30, 2009
Mike, I'm not so sure about facts on the ground, I think Bibi's bar Ilan speech would have conceded to much for many in his own coalition. That the Palestinians never miss an opportunity.... , has great deal of truth in it. However two names spring to mind, Mitchell and Fayad. Bibi's partial freeze and Abbas's timetable for final status talks. Seems to be were Mitchell is trying to head. Fayad creating the sorts of institutions Israel says the Palestinians need to be regarded as a "legal" state, independent of Israel and Palestinian negotiations.Factors not governed by voters of any camp
27 | Daran, UK, Friday Oct 30, 2009
Oh and further to my post, Israel must of course be recognised by all her neighbours that being understood. Given Ben Gurions declaration would not recognition of Israel be a de facto recognition of the Jewish nature of the state? "right of return" issue is part of final status, Israel will continue to control its sovereign immigration policy within agreed boarders.
28 | Amnon, the Great AMERICAN Southwest, Friday Oct 30, 2009
What Rosner fails to mention about Steve Clemons is that he was the former director of the Richard Nixon Library and Museum, a RINO who clearly endorse the discredited, failed policies of Dulles, Jim Baker, and his buddies Brent Scowcroft, Chuck Hagel, Robert Gates, Jimmy Jones and Charles Freeman. In other words, it is ok for Hungarians, Iranians, Chinese to be butchered, but it is NOT ok for Israel to smash Hamas. Ok to betray the Czechs and Poles but suck up to the Saudis. Clemons is a RINO jerk who has sold his soul to his new benefactor Soros, and Dick Nixon is turning over in his grave.
29 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Friday Oct 30, 2009
#27 Daran. Might I suggest that you take a look at the blogsite Rubin Reports & spend an hour reading the various articles in the archives for this month. Mr Rubin is not a far-right extremist by any means - he is a moderate but objective, informed, & experienced. This format is too limiting for me to write in any depth. While I am far to the right of Mr Rubin on security issues, I respect his analyses. You seemingly hold very naive views - you sound like CNN or The New York Times. The Middle-East is NOT like the West - it operates by it's own set of rules.
30 | Daran, UK, Friday Oct 30, 2009
Terry If you could point to where my "very naive" views are not correct or where I claim that the mid east is like the west? Mr Rubins "moderation" is of course a matter of opinion, if people don't advocate force explusions by IDF "special groups" as you do, it does not make them moderate, I would contend. thought I do thank you for pointing me his blog it does contain some interesting argument and articles.
31 | Haviva Ramat Gan, Saturday Oct 31, 2009
Livni is a spoilt brat having tasted the lollipop of leadership she continues to long for more licks. She's a "has been" beyond recyling and her frustration is showing.
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