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Thursday Jun 18, 2009
Rosner's Domain: The meaning of openess and honesty in US-Israel relationsPosted by SHMUEL ROSNER
Comments: 40      Follow Rosner's Domain on Twitter!!! From Secretary Clinton's remarks at the meeting with FM Avigdor Lieberman in Washington: Because our countries are close friends, we spoke honestly and openly about a range of issues. Here's an example of this coveted openness and honest talk: FOREIGN MINISTER LIEBERMAN: Three questions, yeah. First of all, we really don't have any intention to change the demographic balance in Judea and Samaria. But we think that, you know, as - in every place around the world, baby are born (inaudible), people get married, some pass away. And we cannot accept - we cannot accept this vision about absolutely completely freezing call for our settlements. I think that we must keep the natural growth. Prime minister spoke about this in his speech. I think that this position, its - this view, this approach, its very clear. And also, we had some understandings with the previous administration and we tried to keep this direction. And we are, of course, ready for immediately direct talks with the Palestinians. SECRETARY CLINTON: Well, as President Obama, Senator Mitchell and I have said, we want to see a stop to the settlements. We think that is an important and essential part of pursuing the efforts leading to a comprehensive peace agreement and the creation of a Palestinian state next to a Israeli-Jewish state that is secure in its borders and future. We believe that this process which Senator Mitchell is quarterbacking for us has just begun. There are a number of critical concerns, many of which overlap in their impact and significance, that will be explored in the coming weeks as Senator Mitchell engages more deeply into the specifics as to where the Israelis and the Palestinians are willing to go together. I think that the whole issue that youve raised is one that we've expressed our opinion on. And in looking at the history of the Bush Administration, there were no informal or oral enforceable agreements. That has been verified by the official record of the Administration and by the personnel in the positions of responsibility. Our former ambassador Dan Kurtzer has written an op-ed that appeared in the last few days that lays out our position on that. So now we know: between the two versions - Elliott Abrams' ("President Bush largely resolved the issue of the major settlement blocs in a 2004 letter to Sharon") and Dan Kurtzer's ("The problem is that there was no such understanding") - Hillary goes with the latter.
1 | Desert Eagle, Thursday Jun 18, 2009
Openess and Honesty means I will say something you don't want to hear. Obama said a lot to the Arab world that they did not want to hear. Hamas must stop the violence. Israel is not going away. Arab leaders should start saying that in public. 62 years have gone by. The region can help by making peace with Israel. Obama cannot change the US relationship in deep support of Israel even if he wanted to. Bibi said we must start the economic and banking functions needed to create a liveable world for Palestians. We don't want to occupy. We need a demilitarized state. What will the Saudis want?
2 | Dr. Dan 2000, Thursday Jun 18, 2009
It's okay for Hillary and Avigdor to talk across each other. There's no hard will. It is friendly and shows the nature of the partnership. --- there are cross purposes. But the new team coming on other side will be led by Saudi Arabia. The divergent interests on a Saudi, Gulf State, Egyptian, Turkey, Syrian, Jordan and Lebanese team are more complex. Instead of a Quartet we have Obama testing to see what the Saudi would consider a win. The only win would be a Muslim flag flying from the Bin Laden temples on the mount and enough East Jerusalem to proclain a capital.Bibi took that back.
3 | TJ Burke, Thursday Jun 18, 2009
the saudi.s want exactly what is expressed in the koran: convert 'em or kill 'em
4 | Dr. Dan 2000, Thursday Jun 18, 2009
The Saudi plan was a best case scenario for them - a sort of fantasy negotiation. Bibi's response was perfect: before negotiations we don't give away anything. We know there is something you want for your own reasons -- a flag in Jerusalem; That is all you are going to get and nothing else, and you must use your power to help us build the West Bank, force no population translocations, keep Gaza in a box for now and allow all the major Israeli territories. A new Federated State provides the structure for managing aid, construction, unfinished peace issues and intergovenmental communication.
5 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Thursday Jun 18, 2009
There has never been any ''openess & honesty'' in US/Israel relations. The US sees us as a colony, a pawn, to do whatever they say with little concern for our national interests. And most of our politicians, when the US says jump, they just say ''how high'' - that's the sad truth.
Fine, this is not denying much support among the American people but as far as the State Dept.is concerned, we are just a problem, not an ally. Now we have an outright enemy in the White House & we'll have to defend ourselves as best we can.
6 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Thursday Jun 18, 2009
By the way, there is quite a lack of detailed information, easily accessed, about the size, location, history of the settlements. This lack of information makes it very difficult to defend our policies. I was trying to refute some crap propaganda filled with the usual slogans & had a hard time finding accurate information. Of course, after I wrote my post, it was deleted, censored, by ''liberals'' who, as we know, are staunch defenders of free speech.
7 | Ahmet, Istanbul, Turkey, Thursday Jun 18, 2009
TJ Burke, I am a Muslim, and have read the Quran dozens of time, and honestly I've never seen any quotations in the Quran suggesting "convert them or kill them."
Besides, Jews lived in peace under Islam for 1400 years, when there was no Israel, no IDF, no Israeli air force, nothing...and they propsered and even had their golden age. Indeed, Rambam wrote his Shulhan Aruch and the "Guide to the Misguided" under Islam. He was the personal doctor of Salladin. So my friend, why do you lie about Muslims? Does this give you satisfaction? Is lying part of being Jewish? Sorry to ask these questions.
8 | Ronald USA, Thursday Jun 18, 2009
Clinton is not a leader. Her norm is to make ambiguous statements so she can plausibly change them later when she is called into question. I am pretty sure that Leiberman ran all over her in private. Getting back to the point. The US is a treacherous, unreliable 'friend'. We were all there during the Bush-Sharon years. I read numerous articles on the subject of these 'understandings and assurances'. Plenty of Israelis said at the time that they were worthless, but Sharon trusted the US to keep her word. That was a mistake. The US has always pursued US interests, not Israel's.
9 | fnord, oslo, Thursday Jun 18, 2009
"Now we have an outright enemy in the White House & we'll have to defend ourselves as best we can."
I hate you daddy! Y`all behaving like spoiled children.
10 | Amnon, the Great AMERICAN Southwest, Thursday Jun 18, 2009
To begin with, I have the highest respect for Elliott Abrams. I haven't forgotten how he worked closely with another good friend of the Jewish people - unlike Obama or Hillary - by the name of Colonel Oliver North (start screaming, Liberal Fascists). That being said, I have the highest contempt for Daniel C. Kurtzer. He is a hypocrite, a worm, a self-hater, a described "Orthodox Jew" in the service of the Palestinians. He wrote Baker's "Greater Israel" speech, he was silent when Baker told us to, you know, and has delighted in sticking it to Israel. A Lying piece of bleep, nothing more.
11 | Fred, Thursday Jun 18, 2009
To the present U.S. Administration, openness and honesty in American-Israeli relations means doing exactly what President Hussein says
12 | David USA, Thursday Jun 18, 2009
13 | David USA, Thursday Jun 18, 2009
6 Terry - obviously you are uninformed. There is no lack of information at all. Ever heard of the SASSON REPORT ? It is the most detailed information of the settlement enterprise imaginable - and readily available. Unfortunately, the Israeli government would like to bury it.
14 | Dr. Dan in USA, Thursday Jun 18, 2009
Links from JPost's map page lead to a site describing the suburbs around Jerusalem -- which would have been in the "international zone" proposed in 1947 by the UN: population 150,000. A couple of big settlements are just outside the green line and the security fence is planned to include them. One big town right in the middle of the West Bank. About a hundred outposts and little settlements. Total around 300,000 people. Too many to move. The Gaza move did not go well. A test of the Palestinian state would be allowing all the settlers to stay as citizens with equal rights per UN 1947.
15 | elliot usa, Thursday Jun 18, 2009
hillary is a clinton and W is more a man of his word[yoo much a simpleton for some]
honesty is america wishes to declare peace and disengage from alliance which ronald reaga establish with israel...honesty for israel means the land is too small for another[terrorist] state.there are already 2 -jordan and israel if any one wants a solution that could last.jordan is' palestine'
honesty for both is that the 'peace process' is an endless dance,can only lead to more conflict
16 | Michael Greenberg, Thursday Jun 18, 2009
To #3: In the Koran--conversion of Jews is to take place on JUDGEMENT DAY-till then Jews can live as People of the Book (the Torah) but they canbe 2nd class citizens in Muslim states (dhimmis)...The Koran never imagined a re-instituted Jewish State -but by its own LOGIC, "true-believer" (in Torah) Jews in their own state must be ipso facto ZIONISTS to occupy ALL the land the Torah promised the Children Of Israel or else the Jews cannot be "true-believers" in their own holy Scripture (which Allah gave them to follow until Judgement Day when they must convert-or go to Hell).
17 | lois, Thursday Jun 18, 2009
you cannot use the word "honesty" in the same sentence with " clinton". listen to her,and you are dead.that is the saudi plan.
18 | Boris, Jerusalem, Thursday Jun 18, 2009
Actually, I would like some openness and honesty. First, I would like the American security establishment to acknowledge that the anti-Semitism of the basest and vile kind is so widespread in the military and intelligence community that it affects their judgement on Israel (and drives American Jews from the armed forces, but that's another matter). I will never forget how I was escorting Marine troops from Haifa to Negev during their "Novelle - Shirley" joint exercise with IDF, and overheard a leutenant muttering to his NCO: "Here we are, in the land of Christ-killers".
19 | JimUSA, Thursday Jun 18, 2009
#6--One thing that jumps out at you from a map of the settlements is that most of them could stay without impinging on West Bank contiguiity. The bleat about "canons' and "Bantustans" is bunk.
JimUSA
20 | Stuart, Michigan USA, Thursday Jun 18, 2009
Here's what natural growth means:
(http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2009/06a/125011.htm)
It means no babies E. of the green line. Maybe Hillary should go there and pass out condoms.
"MR. MITCHELL: Well, of course, one of the issues is that there is no universally used and accepted definition. The most common definition is by the number of births, but there are many variations of that. I've had numerous discussions with many Israeli and other officials, and there are almost as many definitions as there are people speaking. But I think the most commonly used measure is the number of births."
21 | Gábor Fränkl, Friday Jun 19, 2009
Terry, on which so-called liberal forum did you write - you say the site on which they censored your comment. I'm really curious.
22 | Gábor Fränkl, Friday Jun 19, 2009
To Dr. Dan - No disrespect, but if you are really really a Dr., I fail to see how on earth you can't figure out that a situation would occur whereby the supposed Palestinian settlers with Pal. citizenship would HAVE to give up their Israeli ones - otherwise they would/could vote in TWO political entities according to you? How do you imagine this? That would be a clear loss for Israel - virtually wipe out the whole right-wing representation in the Knesset. Don't get me wrong - I also think the Pals are hedging their bets for a racist Juden-frei entity, but please everyone think the theory over!
23 | Mike Feldman, Friday Jun 19, 2009
#7. Ahmet. Your post starts off mellow enough with your interpretation of the Koran, and the beificent largesse of the Muslims to the Jews. You even allowed us to prosper. Then you move forward to accuse one Jew of being a liar and then ask if lying is a Jewish trait and source of pleasure. Kalid Sheik Mohammed and Usama Bin Laden are Muslims and they are murdering basterds. Does being a Muslim make you a murdering bastard? Is this a trait that Muslims enjoy?
24 | ps, Friday Jun 19, 2009
Mr. Lieberman should either learn to speak English or speak in a language he knows and have it translated. As it is, he sounds illiterate.
25 | Amnon, the Great AMERICAN Southwest, Friday Jun 19, 2009
I think the reason Hillary was so respectful of FM Lieberman lies in the fact that many people, myself included, but also quite a few Jewish-Americans ( maybe some non-Jews too) who voted for Messiah Chimp are very disturbed by his animus towards Israel, especially with kids dying in Tehran and North Korea pounding the war drums - and contacted their Democratic Congressmen and Senators and said "What the Hell is Going On?" From what I've heard quite a few Dems, including obnoxious Girlieboy Bobby Wexler are getting pretty nervous, and they may have voiced their concerns to the Baboon on high.
26 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Friday Jun 19, 2009
Gabor Frankl - Since you're curious, the forum that deleted my comments was the Jake Tapper blog.
This has happened also on Huffington, a blogspot self-described as the Moderate Voice, & several others. In my experience JPost often does not post my comments, Ynet only occasionally will not print my comments, & The Times of London almost never prints my comments. The Economist only deleted me once & I post their frequently. I could go on since I read about 25 newspapers & blogs every morning.
27 | Hanoi Paris Hilton, l'Amerique Profonde, Friday Jun 19, 2009
Boris... Regarding the two marines in the land of the Christ-killers, I think you might have a tin ear for irony. I'm ex-US military, am genetically predisposed to hypersensitive detection of antisemitism of even the least "basest and vile kind", and I never detected very much in my day: especially amongst combat troops actually out in the field. The reasons that American Jews have generally stayed out of the military since our parents generations has precious little to do with fear of antisemitism and lots to do with most of them (i.e., us) inculcated early to drink the "progressive" Kool-aid.
28 | Vadim, Friday Jun 19, 2009
to Gábor Fränkl
Actually, Israel allows dual citizenship (if you are familiar with the concept). So the settlers would not have to give up on their Israeli passports. I also assume that, if they are allowed to practice their religious beliefs which compel them to try to move (legally!) to the land of their forefathers, they would not be so right wing anymore.
29 | former Lubivitcher, Friday Jun 19, 2009
Mike Feldman, Khalid Sheikh Muhammed and his friends in al-Qaida carry out terrorist acts, but they don't quote from the Quran and Hadith..about exterminating non-Muslims. But chabad is brazen about its genocidal belief. Read their literature, read their hatanya.. they are really Nazis.
What else can be said of a religious sect that considers all non-Jews animals that ought to be exterminated?
I know many Jews are against Chabad, but where are their voices?
30 | Ronald USA, Friday Jun 19, 2009
former Lubivitcher, please start telling the truth. Not one word of one sentence you wrote is true. Most of us have better things to do than read your poppycock.
31 | Mike Feldman, Canada, Friday Jun 19, 2009
former Lubivitcher. Thanks for the lecture about the difference between Khalid Shekh Muhammed, Al Quada abd Ahmet. Ahmet was questioning if all Jews were liars because he was calling one Jew a liar, and he went on to state that Jews prospered UNDER ISLAM. II pointed out two known Muslim murderers and asked therefore were all Muslims murderers I waa uaing his logic.
iI am not versed in Chabad teachings, but I am not aware of them beheading innocent Muslims or their hijacking aircraft to destroy buildings and there occupants.
Pleasse quote some currrent teachings in the madrassas.
32 | Gábor Fränkl, Friday Jun 19, 2009
Vadim, I expected an answer like this. This is emphatically NOT the question of double citizenship in this case. I also know that Israel has this of course. But still, they would not logically be able to have the ability to vote both here and there at the same time. What would happen if suddenly the new P. state were to give 1.2 million Arabs citizenship collectively - becuase it is within their power to do so? Could those Israeli (PA?) Arabs vote in both political entities, polities? This seems weird to me. I'm afraid this is something that is not properly thought out by those advocating it.
33 | former Lubivitcher, Friday Jun 19, 2009
Mike Feldman, Canada, I believe it is important to be honest, even on this forum. Spin and lies and vindictive malicious propaganda may appeal to young people and fanatics. But at the end, only the truth prevails.
you are right, most Jews are honest, and most Muslims are honest as well.
The poroblem is that there are fanatics on both sides, and Jewish fanatics also murder innocent people in the West Bank.
Chabad is a fanatical and thoroughly racist movement. Its teachings constitute a a serious falsification of true Judaism. God never told Moses non-Jews are animals, as Chabad teaches.
34 | Mags Golds, Friday Jun 19, 2009
The meaning of openess & honesty in US-Israel relations w/ new US administration today is gone! Israel has the right to do what is the best for them! They don't need US to tell them what not to do!
35 | Fred C usa, Saturday Jun 20, 2009
Boris from Jerusalem...yes, there are some anti-Semites in the US army, but they are a minority. You should have told that a hole leutenant that he wasnt in Italy...that the Romans killed poor Yoshkie...only now they call themselves Italians . I love Italy and the Italians ..but those
lousy Romans? Only Hitler was worse. I served in the US Army and encountered a few Jew haters, but when I stood up to them they faded back. Most guys, I can honestly say, were nice people. We Jews will survive in spite of these vile haters. We have for 4000 yrs..when Abraham said >>"Who me?"
36 | Mike Feldman, Canada, Saturday Jun 20, 2009
former Lubivitcher. I agree with you about the majority of people of Jewish and Muslim faiths being honest. As I stated before, I took exception to reading that lying gives Jews satisfaction. To accept this would demean everything that you and I and every other Jew has to say, because unless it pleased the reader it could be dismissed as a lie.
37 | Jhardeman, Sunday Jun 21, 2009
Israel is already a nation, too small to put another one on top of that. Where wuld the rest of PA Arabs live? There are too many of them. I suggest dividing Saudi Arabia - give them the half. That'll work and will 'settle' the hate on honest Jewish population. End of discussion.
38 | JHardeman, Sunday Jun 21, 2009
16 Michael. My my you must've had a nightmare or something. I'm not Muslim but even I know there is no such koran that states that nonsense. On Judgment Day, G_d will not have a koran in hand to judge you or me. People will not be separated by religious affiliations - no Muslims, no Bajai, no jihads, just people like you, me and everyone in the world. They will be judged by G_d's own moral standard: Ten Commandments if you will. The Almighty sovereignly stands as "I am the Way, the Truth and Life. No one comes to the Father except Me." Peace.
39 | andy-london, Sunday Jun 21, 2009
every time the muslims write comments to { Israel's FREE press } they should ask themselves.WHY is it that OUR MUSLIM press WONT allow any debate against us .WHAT are you lot frightened of?That's why your screaming clerics and mullahs are terrified of the reformers in iran getting a voice to question the ethics of your koran.I watched a debate by wafa sultan an ex muslim and a screaming cleric on [wafa sultan youtube] and this woman left that screamer silent. SO once again why dont you ALLOW other comments in your press?YOU KNOW WHY DONT YOU?
40 | arthur disbury UK., Monday Jun 22, 2009
As a Christian (UK) A bad Christian, but still a Christian, I am pro USA, but I fear they do use Israel as another aircraft carrier! The USA is your big brother or a bully depending on where you live. I am not overly happy with the USAs foreign policy, but i am glad they are my big brother. Anyone who denies the holocaust, like AHMADINEJAD is an imbecile, who insults fair minded Muslims. Until these imbeciles are put back in the gutter where they belong, Christians, Jews and Muslims will never co-exist.
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