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Friday Jan 09, 2009
Rosner's Domain: The anti-Israel lobbyPosted by SHMUEL ROSNER
Comments: 136 Foreign Policy's website editors have decided to have Prof. Stephen Walt - of the notoriously-miserable book The Israel Lobby - come on as a regular blogger. For those expecting Walt to dive immediately into the one topic that makes him tick - his distaste for Israel - the professor didn't disappoint. In a ridiculous "thought experiment" Walt opened his blog by trying to prove, yet again, that U.S.'s Israel-policy is hypocritical and harmful: Imagine that Egypt, Jordan, and Syria had won the Six Day War, leading to a massive exodus of Jews from the territory of Israel. Imagine that the victorious Arab states had eventually decided to permit the Palestinians to establish a state of their own on the territory of the former Jewish state. (That's unlikely, of course, but this is a thought experiment). Imagine that a million or so Jews had ended up as stateless refugees confined to that narrow enclave known as the Gaza Strip. Then imagine that a group of hardline Orthodox Jews took over control of that territory and organized a resistance movement. We already know from his book, co-authored with John Mearsheimer, that Walt has an active imagination. Luckily, Foreign Policy also has other writers capable of refuting Walt's obsessive hostility and mocking his resourceful fixation on Israel as the country where most of the world's problems originate. David Rothkopf does just that, responding to Walt's "thought experiment" with one of his own: You want a thought experiment? What if Palestinian "freedom fighters" indiscriminately launched missiles into Israel, failing to kill hundreds or thousands of innocent people only through ineptitude, and then they rushed back into densely populated civilian areas and hid behind women and children for cover? Of course, my thought experiment is even more worth thinking about for reasons that should starkly apparent to everyone, regardless of which lobby they may support. But even more significantly, Rothkopf attempts to categorize Walt's rants and put them in the right context. While I do not necessarily agree with everything he says, his portrayal of the "anti-Israel Lobby" is a timely contribution to the public debate over Israel's influence in the U.S.: [Walt] has become as biased a pleader of special interests as he accuses the Israel Lobby of being. And as such he has become a member of the anti-Israel Lobby, a group that is every bit as vocal and at the moment seems to be even more empowered than the its counterpart. Members include Jimmy Carter and his former national security advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski, celebrity activists like Richard Gere, and many members of the media. Like the members of the Israel Lobby, they found their case on some very reasonable assertions. The Palestinians should have a state of their own and their plight is dismal. It is also a terrible tragedy that so many are the innocent victims of the conflict between Israel and, at the moment, Hamas. But just as proponents of a strong U.S. relationship with Israel would do well to realize the damage that has been done to Israel's case by over-aggressive actions (most egregiously those associated with the brutal and mismanaged invasion of Lebanon in the early 1980s), proponents of the Palestinian cause would do well to recognize that is grotesquely counter-productive to explicitly or implicitly support the leadership or the interests of Hamas, Iranian-backed terrorists who have violated their public trust with the Palestinian people by both failing to serve their basic needs and actively choosing to put them at mortal risk. Here's one "thought experiment" I was trying this morning - I guess it's easier for a writer under the influence of cold-medicine: Imagine Professor Walt reading Rothkofp's post and realizing that he was wrong all along, that he became a biased advocate for the wrong cause, that the way he crafts his arguments gives justification to those thinking he is anti-Semitic. Imagine him taking the hundreds of thousands of dollars he made from writing his despicable book and giving it away to, say, the Jewish Agency, imagine Walt going back to being the somewhat boring "realist" scholar he once was, back to relative obscurity. Can you? This is as likely a scenario as the one he was asking his readers to visualize. (Update: Walt wrote another response to Rothkopf. It's here). Crossposting: Contentions.
1 | David M USA, Friday Jan 09, 2009
Walt is a propagandist who has an obsessional dislike of the concept of a Jewish homeland. He has learned that publishing anti-Israel material will get him lots of media attention and get his name in the paper. By writing this propaganda he went from an unknown academic to a darling of the media. He is not a scholar and should never have been publshed in Foreign Affairs. That is disgraceful.
2 | Observer, Finland, Friday Jan 09, 2009
Is the anti-Semite Z. Brzezinski still advising B. Obama? Is Obama part of this anti-Israel camp? The world is very interested in this matter; it would be an international scandal of the worst grade. If Obama joins this anti-Israel camp it could have wide international repercussions; the US's world-wide image would be stained for years, and the US's role as a "world mediator" would be over. State anti-Semitism in the US would diminish its influence internationally and the superpower era would be over. Anti-Semitism cannot be the guiding ideology of a superpower; other powers would react.
3 | Erdo?an-Turkey, Friday Jan 09, 2009
?srael will be destroyed... ?srael!! get smart!!
4 | Larry D.C., Friday Jan 09, 2009
I am pleased to see an awakening on the part of Jews not just in Israel but in the U.S. as well within the context of the current fight. However, in a broader sense what is sad, is that it has taken at least a decade longer than it should have for Israel to build a fairly effective PR effort while the Arabs and thier appologists (not to mention those such as Walt who just cant wait to brew up some Anti-Semetic rant under the guise of academia). These people must be called out for what they represent with louder and louder voices. It has worked for the Arabs and thier terrible agenda!
5 | Rob B. USA, Friday Jan 09, 2009
I think Walt makes a very powerful point, though I do not know that he goes far enough. I do not believe American political culture has yet to fully come to grips with Zionist Jewish supremacism and how it has been allowed to harm American standing in the world. Standing up for what's good and true is not anti-Semitic
6 | Tom Wonacott, Boise, Idaho, USA, Friday Jan 09, 2009
Despite disagreements over Israeli policy (which I happen to agree with), suggestions of anti Semitism are counter productive. Israeli policies are easily defended without resorting to calls of bigotry WHICH ARE MEANT TO STIFLE DEBATE.
7 | Maya, Sweden, Friday Jan 09, 2009
It's always the same formula that both anti-Israel propagandists and the ignorants of this world are wielding against the Jewish state, no matter what it does:
ISRAEL = THE OCCUPIER = A priori THE GUILTY PARTY. Period. The fact that Israel never has occupied lands voluntarily but only as a last resort in utter self-defense is omitted by propagandists and simply unknown to ignorants. It's weird, isn't it, that certain "academia" doesn't mind repeating the same formulas as Arab totalitarian propaganda and ignoramuses do? Why doesn't this "coincidence" make them wake up? - Shalom.
8 | Dave, New York, Friday Jan 09, 2009
If the Arab world wanted peace tomorrow, there would be peace. There has been no sincere effort on the part of the Arab world to move toward peace. It is really that simple. Those who choose to point to Israel's failures at making peace, and blame Israel for the current situation, are simply being dishonest, naive, or are ill-informed. This is why Israel calls people like # 5 anti-Semitic. People don't like Jewish success, and the Jews should stop caring so much about what they think.
9 | Alberto, Brazil, Friday Jan 09, 2009
Walt, Mersheimer, Finkelstein, Richard Falk, Ilan Pappe...they are all part of what a columnist once described as the "your own man says so" argument. Jews who have an anti-Israel bias are frequently used to undermine any pro-Israel discusion with a supposedly strong "ad autoritatem" fallacy. No amount of rational arguments can deflect the strength of those attacks, for those who use anti-Israel Jews know perfectly well that they are just a tool, as are UN assemblies, street protests and yes, Qassam rockets. Treating them with contempt, like Falk was a few weeks ago, seems to work better.
10 | David, Vermont, USA, Friday Jan 09, 2009
Frankly, I agree with most of Walt's statements. Anyone who doesn't needs to then explain why Israel is the USA's largest recipient of foriegn aid and what exactly we get from Israel for our tax dollars. An Obama Presidency that follows the lines of Carter is probably the best solution to the Middle East conflict. The only way there will be peace is if both sides beleieve the mediator is impartial. Israelis will scream and moan but so will most Paelstinians. That is the nature of the game.
11 | Skylark, Friday Jan 09, 2009
Nothing anyone says will altar the words of the Jewish prophets. Zechariah states all nations coming to the phony peace table will eventually be destroyed before messiah returns. Few people believe in prophecy but their eyes will be open after Iran and its allies are defeated as mentioned in the Ezekiel prophecy. Europe rushes diplomats to Gaza. A phony messiah shall arise from Europe who will destroy many by peace as mentioned by the prophet Daniel, who also says,"My people are destroyed by lack of knowledge." Return to the Lord and he gives victory!
12 | Skylark, Friday Jan 09, 2009
Nothing anyone says will altar the words of the Jewish prophets. Zechariah states all nations coming to the phony peace table will eventually be destroyed before messiah returns. Few people believe in prophecy but their eyes will be open after Iran and its allies are defeated as mentioned in the Ezekiel prophecy. Europe rushes diplomats to Gaza. A phony messiah shall arise from Europe who will destroy many by peace as mentioned by the prophet Daniel, who also says,"My people are destroyed by lack of knowledge." Return to the Lord and he gives victory!
13 | Michael Greenberg, Friday Jan 09, 2009
Their (the ant-Israel lobby) thought experiment is stated incorrectly--For if the Arabs had won the Six Day War -it is impossible that a million Jews would survive and go to a refugge camp "enclave" ilong the coast like Gaza is...that is because--as we all know 100% for sure--that all the jewish men and children and elderly would be killed and the remaining women raped until they were killed --simply put the Arabs would have allowed No Jewish refugees to survive and go anywhere --Pal-land would be judenfrei.....thus the Anti-Israel lobby's thought experiment is a non-starter.
14 | Gábor Fränkl Budapest, Hungary, Friday Jan 09, 2009
Rob B.(arnett) - USA
Someone who is a supporter of a Nazi-like terror-exporting regime in Tehran, Ahmedinejad, as you yourself admitted in a TB comment on another article thread forfeit the right to be taken seriously. If it is extremely uncomfortable for you to "justify" yourself before your anti-Semitic circle of friends in Minnesota, that's your problem. Your pathetic language using phrases like Jewish supremacism bears all the hallmark of a David Duke style active Neo-Nazi. And no roundabout can refute this fact. The cat is out of the bag...
15 | Rob B. USA, Friday Jan 09, 2009
#7 Maya, there was no last resort self-defense involved when European Jewish Zionists sought to become a minority population that would seize control of a land predominately populated by Arabs and other non-Jews, exhibiting no meaningful regard for their presence and views, and creating population transfer committees to engjneer sufficient numbers being removed. Also, if Arab totalitarian propagandists declare that 1+1=2 and I say 'yes, I agree' what does that prove? Nothing. Yusuf Qaradawi and the Sudanese government favored McCain in our recent USA election. So what?
16 | elliot usa, Friday Jan 09, 2009
anti-semittes never admit they are wrong except under duress which is not a true admission
17 | Adolf, Friday Jan 09, 2009
You jews just can't stand to hear the truth! The only Americans that like you people are the damn Bush's, because the Bush family have the same sick, twisted, greedy minds! Other than that Americans don't like you!!! You people are nasty, rude and truly lack morals. The only thing that saves your behinds here in the USA is that we're not allowed to report both sides of the story!!!! YOU PEOPLE ARE SICK!
18 | Erdogan-Turkey, Friday Jan 09, 2009
Israel!! we will destroy you!! and we will found FREE PALESTINE.... Turkey will destroy Israel...
19 | DAVID KAPLAN, Friday Jan 09, 2009
Walt engages in a series of lies and distortions in order to rationalize his anti-Israel and anti-Semitic agenda and those of his fellow travellers. Having a philsophy totally in accord with neo-Nazis, it needs to be cloaked in some sort of pseudo-respectability, as it is not yet within the realm of civilized discourse for MOST people to shout "Jews to the ovens". That is still a few years in the future.
20 | Yonatan Netser, Israel, Friday Jan 09, 2009
Rgarding Walt's "thought experiment," he proceeds from falsity to falsity. First, let's use his example. There never was, is, or will be, any "hardline" Jewish orthodox doctrine of "world domination." There is no Jewish aim of slaughtering all Arabs . During the 1948 War, the Arabs tried to starve Jewish Jerusalem into submission. My friends remember it well. If Israel did that to Gaza, we wouldn't need to send in the army. Jewish values are democratic values,the font of Western values, and Islam , as practised today, is not. Shalom!
21 | Yonatan Netser, Israel, Friday Jan 09, 2009
Rgarding Walt's "thought experiment," he proceeds from falsity to falsity. First, let's use his example. There never was, is, or will be, any "hardline" Jewish orthodox doctrine of "world domination." There is no Jewish aim of slaughtering all Arabs . During the 1948 War, the Arabs tried to starve Jewish Jerusalem into submission. My friends remember it well. If Israel did that to Gaza, we wouldn't need to send in the army. Jewish values are democratic values,the font of Western values, and Islam , as practised today, is not. Shalom!
22 | Michael Greenberg, Friday Jan 09, 2009
And now we hear Annie Lennox denying she is anti-Israel....all thise years of rockets coming down on isreali towns and not a peep from her ..she led no protest rallies against the Hamas and the PAL "civilians' in Gaza that voted them in and : accepted Farfurism...cheered if Israelis were killed by the rockets..these people are truly "innocent"? But let Arab "civilian" blood be spilled and we get all this righteous indignation? WHY THE DOUBLE STANDARD? And how many of these "civilians" were actually Hamas or their own families? Lennox would protect THEM?
23 | Adam, Friday Jan 09, 2009
Let me tell you.First...read The Bible,everything basically is said there...then..more news : all those 15 countries that voted to stop Israel yesterday will have Gods punishment coming already! LA ,USA and Costa Rica had An Earthquakes! It is only the beginning.
In Genesis: If USA will push on Division of Israel and Jerusalem- USA will have a Huge Earthquake that will completely divide North America on two Continents! Devastation .it will come,so be ready!
To those Jews -Kikes that voted a Muslim Liar Obama- now you will see how a snake change his skin! you all gonna suffer in Death Camps FEMA
24 | Adam, Friday Jan 09, 2009
Jews from Europe and USA must to come home.Israel! Why? Cause very soon it will be disaster for them to live in USA and Europe,muslim already.
Jews come home ! Marshal Law will be in USA,,,Death Camps are ready operated by FEMA! Wake up and leave those countries now,before it is too late.
USA is finished,Read Bible,Tanach...Prophecies,,USA in two years will be divided by foreigners and 90% of Citizens will be killed in Death Camps.!!! Wake up!
25 | jon, UK, Friday Jan 09, 2009
How is Israel killing 250 children and wounding thousands more going to help "defend" their land? If you are going to bomb the hell out of 1.5 million people, give them somehwere safe to run to. As UN schools, Red Cross vehicles and UN aid trucks are not safe from IDF artillery, then perhaps Israel should have tried a more intelligent, rather than yet another disproportionately brutal, approach. Israel is looking like the terrorist party to much of the world right now and it has lost the sympathy many once had for it.
26 | Ben, Friday Jan 09, 2009
Forget anti-semitism. Forget rational debates. The single biggest driving factor behind the anti-Israel lobby is the fact that most Jews have lighter skin than Arabs. That's all there is to it. It's the philosophy of Third Worldism. Ironically, it is also a philosophy that was created mostly by diaspora Jewish academics in reaction to Eurocentrism. No matter how moral or just one's cause is, if he is whiter than the opponent, he is 'the oppressor'. Jews will never have majority world support over Arabs. Not in the current Zeitgeist anyway. End of story.
27 | John Gilbert, Canada, Friday Jan 09, 2009
Do you really think that victorious Arab armies such as in Walt's war scenario would have even left a Jewish refugee enclave standing to live another day? Either, they would have killed and/or expelled every Jew out of it. Even if the Jews were left with Tel Aviv as their last enclave, the Arabs would want to destroy it too. Thus, the fact that there are Arabs still in Israel proper since 1948 and Arabs still in the so called occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip after 1967 even though they would not tolerate any Jews if it was the other way around speaks volumes. The anti-Israel lobby errs.
28 | Ron R USA, Friday Jan 09, 2009
Rob #5...take a good look in the mirror Robby ole boy...you'll see a Jew Hater! You're from the USA..so am I. I want to remind you that those same bastards that did 9/11and killed thousands of our fellow Americans were Islamic Jihadis...the same guys (Hamas) that you cheer for. What kind of American are you? You would problably cheer for Hitler too. 3000 Americans died in that Sept 11th. And that means more hundreds of thousnads of family relitives cry every day becasue ofwhat those lousy Islamic radicals.did!. Hamas has that same hate..but you know all about that!
29 | Stuart Williams, Worcester, England, Friday Jan 09, 2009
I, and thankfully many in this country like me now realise the true facts about Israel and America, both of your miserable countries flout every principle of common humanity, justice and human dignity. You both release the bombs, pull the triggers, fire the morters and drive the tanks with the express intention of subjugating, oppressing and dispossessing a whole race of people.
After the annihilation of Lebanon and the cruel and merciless razing and slaughtering of Gaza you are clearly exposed for what you are, unfit to call yourselves civilized and the pariahs and lepers of the world.
30 | McQueen, NY, Friday Jan 09, 2009
If Israel had lost the '67 war as Walt proposes, that would be it. The survivors wouldn't have had a friend in the world. They would have been lucky to be given asylum anywhere in the world.
31 | Dave S England, Friday Jan 09, 2009
Face it, Israel is losing the propaganda war because what you are doing offend any decent right minded person. The attack on the UN school which your Govt eventually admitted had not fired on your troops, the murder of 30 people, many children by IDF shelling of a house the IDF had put these people in, the killing of UN workers, it goes on and on.
Your army are either the most useless bunch of conscripts or they are deliberately killing civilians. It must be one or the other.
I used to support Israel but cannot any longer. You believe your own propaganda now.
32 | Lokesha, Friday Jan 09, 2009
Being an Indian, I'll always support Israel, they are doing what ever we are not able to do !!!
I am proud of you Israeli's, destroy those, who doesn't want peace in this world. Destroy those, who has only one agenda, which is only their dream. Destroy those, who doesn't have dare to fight against each other, but fight from behind. Long live Israel.
33 | Darnel, Friday Jan 09, 2009
Policy issues aside, can someone help me with a logic question. If HAMAS has 20,000 warriors willing to die for freedom and allah, why hasn't there been a major battle yet? As the Israelies tighten the noose the manuever room decreases for HAMAS. WTF is up?
34 | Darnel, Friday Jan 09, 2009
Policy issues aside, can someone help me with a logic question. If HAMAS has 20,000 warriors willing to die for freedom and allah, why hasn't there been a major battle yet? As the Israelies tighten the noose the manuever room decreases for HAMAS. WTF is up?
35 | Lance LeClair Lempster, New Hampshire USA, Friday Jan 09, 2009
I still get surprised by the total ignorance of many people in the world. Many of these people that have outrageous claims like the Jews are conspiring to take over the world are educated yet they still say these amazingly ignorant things. Its bizarre when you think of it.
On comment #2 from observer; I dont believe that even if Obama was in the anti Jew wagon that he could over look the strategic importance of Israel. It is in fact the most stable government in the region. Nor do I believe could he sway the rest of the government or the American people into such stupidity. Lets hope anyway.
36 | JS, Saturday Jan 10, 2009
Israel must be destroyed, and the people tried for war crimes.
Arrest all israeli's that come outside, and throw them in a place like guantanamo, but worse. Then start arresting americans, and kill them when the us government tries the teast t free them.
37 | JS, Saturday Jan 10, 2009
@maya sweden,
Stupidity is not a swedish thing.
If I occupy your house, you try to kick me out and then I killl you what is going on. This is what israel does, the jews left a long time ago, then came back and threw the palestinians out.
That is an act of war, so israel has no right of existence.
I say israel must be destroyed to give peace a chance
38 | Gerald O'Driscoll, Saturday Jan 10, 2009
A Jewish people have now become what they claim to hate..............Nazi's with no regard for what they see as interior life. They set up Hamas and now look at how they are dealing with the monster they created.
Shame on you, shame on you................................
39 | Ben, Californa, Saturday Jan 10, 2009
Its just the truth. Its nice to see Rosner finally show his true colors instead of masquearading as a humanist liberal. You cant keep calling the truth a lie and expedct people to keep believing. There is no peace because there is an occupation. Your not even fooling the American people (congress doesnt) count) Its that simple
40 | Mikel, Sweden, Saturday Jan 10, 2009
It is quite odd that you must read an american homepage in order to find a swedish voice for Israel. I don´t think americans in general understand just how anti-zionistic/ anti-israeli Europe is.
41 | matt St.Louis, USA, Saturday Jan 10, 2009
To #5 Rob B
Please put away your copy of The Protocol's of the Elder's of Zion & have fun at your Klan rally this weekend.
42 | Mikel, Sweden, Saturday Jan 10, 2009
It is quite odd that you must read an american homepage in order to find a swedish voice for Israel. I don´t think americans in general understand just how anti-zionistic/ anti-israeli Europe is.
43 | Brett - Chicago, Saturday Jan 10, 2009
Fortunately the IDF has always been way better than the Israeli PR machine. It's always puzzled me why Israeil has not improved in this area?!
44 | Kitty, Vienna, VA., Saturday Jan 10, 2009
I am tired of hearing the anti-Israel barrage. Israel stood by while bombs from Gaza fell into their country and finally when Israel takes action, Israel is ostracized by the international community. When Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005 and left greenhouses and other structures which could held the Gazan economy, what do the people in Gaza do -- they destroy the vary structures which could help them. If Hamas wants to use civilians as human shields, they must bear the consequences. The international community also needs to stop blaming Israel for the situation that exists; BLAME HAMAS.
45 | Kitty, Vienna, VA., Saturday Jan 10, 2009
I am tired of hearing the anti-Israel barrage. Israel stood by while bombs from Gaza fell into their country and finally when Israel takes action, Israel is ostracized by the international community. When Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005 and left greenhouses and other structures which could held the Gazan economy, what do the people in Gaza do -- they destroy the vary structures which could help them. If Hamas wants to use civilians as human shields, they must bear the consequences. The international community also needs to stop blaming Israel for the situation that exists; BLAME HAMAS.
46 | G-Man SD, Saturday Jan 10, 2009
G-man Says:
January 9th, 2009 at 9:16 PM
Walts latest reply is typical mumbo jumbo. He cites the pressure that J. Carter and Bush #41 put on Israel to advance the peace process as somehow benevolent and for Israels own good. Except, as we have seen in the last 10 years, IT WAS ALL A FARCE.
Egypt has all the anti-Israel incitement of Iran. Arafat showed he never wanted peace [see Dennis Ross The Missing Peace]. The 2nd intifadah [read: infant-toddler] reaction was planned for a long time. And the Pals have admitted as much. Arafat never really reigned in Hamas, never changed the pal media or textbooks to teach peace and co-existence, nothing.
So when these pseudo-realists claim to have a clue
it makes me laugh and cry at the same time. I only hope the Israeli govt. has the testicular fortitude to do what has to be done
NOW
Hamas has to go.
Its time to see if the Fatah folks have learned their lesson and are ready to be responsible for the governance of Gaza.
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