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Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
Rosner's Domain: Recent Israeli polls and the future of the peace processPosted by SHMUEL ROSNER
Comments: 39      Follow Rosner's Domain on Twitter!!! What recent polls say about the peace process? Ami Eden reports. I have a couple of quotes in there. Here's a sample: In an interview with The Jerusalem Post, unnamed Netanyahu advisers suggested that the positive reaction to the prime minister's speech helped explain the Israeli public's increasingly negative view of Obama. One adviser said Netanyahu was benefiting from media attempts to overplay the tensions between Jerusalem and Washington. The Post cited another adviser as saying that Israelis were rejecting perceived attempts by Obama to blame Israel for the conflict or take an even-handed approach. Israeli commentator Shmuel Rosner, whose blog, Rosner's Domain, is housed at the Post's Web site, said that Israeli public opinion is important, but he stressed that government decision-making is what really matters. Aaron David Miller, a former U.S. diplomat involved in Israeli-Palestinian talks, has noted that U.S.-mediated breakthroughs in the Israeli-Arab conflict came after U.S.-Israeli tensions during the Nixon, Carter and first Bush administrations. Rosner cited the second Bush administration to make the opposite point. "The Israeli establishment will be much more forthcoming toward a friendly administration," Rosner told JTA in an e-mail. He noted that the Sharon government, which enjoyed a strong relationship with President George W. Bush, is the only Israeli government to have evacuated settlements in Gaza and the West Bank. I tend to agree with Rosner. Follow Rosner's Domain on Twitter!!!
1 | Ahmet, Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
Terry, if you hate Islam, and you are saying so openly, then the world's 1.6 billion Muslims have a legitimate reason to hate Jews and Judaism.
You can't hate us and hate our religion, and expect us to loe the yellow sheets of hatred called Shulhan Aruch, Hatanya, and chesronot Shas.
If you want to hate..hate will you recive. We are Muslims, we don't turn the other cheek.
For 14 centuries, we protected you, we sheltered you, we saved you from exermination by Christians. And now you are paying us back by saying "we hate you, we want to kill you."
2 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
I think that Obama has managed to alienate the majority of Israelis. He has lost all credibility. He has also revealed his true face, not the face he presented when appealing for Jewish votes & campaign
contributions. Many American Jews are also feeling ''buyers remorse'' over Obama's policies.
Since I always thought that Obama was a fraud & a con artist, that Americans are suckers for BS rhetoric, & that Obama's many rather unsavoury acquaintences (Rev. Wright, Bill Ayres, Khalidi) did not receive the attention they deserved, I'm not surprised at his current policies.
3 | Ahmet, Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
Terry, yes, Orthodox Judaism preaches hatred for goyem. SHimon the Tsodke said "the best of the gentiles, kill'em'
4 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
That being said, I take exception to the use of the term ''peace process'' to describe what is happening between us & the Palestinians. It's a very inaccurate & deceptive usage. There is no peace process - there is only an effort by Palestinians, Arabs, & their supporters to extract concessions from Israel without making any reciprocal concessions. From the West, particularly the U.S. & even more particularly, the Obama administration, an effort to appease, pander to, & placate the Islamic world by sacrificing Israel as the world did in pre-war Europe with Czechoslovakia.
5 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
Rosner says Israel will be more forthcoming with a friendly administration, using the example of Sharon with Bush. Now, why would we even want to be ''more forthcoming''????
Sharon made an incredible blunder. Previous Israeli gov't.s were ''more forthcoming'' as with Oslo among other major blunders, & what did we get out of it? We have nothing to be ''forthcoming'' about.
Rosner, are you suggesting that we divide Jerusalem? That we accept the retreat to the Green Line?
That we cede the Golan to Syria? That we accept phoney refugees?
6 | Suzanne, Jerusalem, Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
Ahmet: every religion has those passages,which taken out of context preach hatred. Also in Islam you have the saying that you should kill all "nonbelievers" (everybody besides Muslims).
The important part is to look for the love for everybody in every religion and accept each other.
7 | Jewgirl, Israel, Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
What peace process? When you say pieces of Israel process well that I understand. I am sick of Obama and his lackeys..Ops..one major lackey is Rahm, go figure this one out him being a Jew and plans with Obama to destroy Israel..May HaShems fury be upon them and upon everybody who plans our destruction
.
8 | Mike Feldman, Canada, Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
Ahnet-good to see you and Terry sparring again. I am a totally secular Jew, so your theological disertatations go over my head. I've had two or three conversations with Orthodox Jews and I get the feeling they respect Gentile more than me. In your travels in the Muslim community you must have talked with some radical Islamist. They exist in large numbers. What do they say to you about Jews? I need both sides of the picture. Also you keep returning to the "portection" of the Jews by the Muslims. I've neve been protected by a Muslim. Do I owe you a debt? Should Israel be indebted?
9 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
#8 Mike Feldman, Canada. I'm not exactly sparing with Ahmet - he can't actually answer anything I ask of him so he gets angry. This is the same reaction I always had back home. I've read the Qurán, I've read some of the Hadiths, but most of my knowledge of Islam comes from almost an entire life-span living in an Arab country. I can;t actually say I've had personal encounters with ''Islamists" per se. Most of my friends were well-off, well-educated, professional people or, the opposite - poor, uneducated, not very religious, young people. Of course, I also knew some deeply religious Muslims.
10 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
Mike Feldman, Canada. It's hard to offer too many generalities, obviously, since Muslims are hardly uniform in belief or practice. But, the brainwashing IS uniform. The ideology absolutely has a certain uniformity & this permeates Muslim societies. My ''secular'' modern, educated friends had opinions often little different from what you call Islamists. In my experience, the more religious instruction anyone had when young, the more fanatic they were, not necessarily practicing religion but the same world-view - while those who had little religious education were open & objective.
11 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
Mike Feldman, Canada. On the question of ''protection'' - you can look at it in several ways. In theory, non-Muslim minorities in Muslim countries paid a tax for protection, this, instead of converting to Islam. This is what is meant by being a ''dhimmi'' - a second class citizen. There are a host of laws & customs designed to humiliate, abase, & harass dhimmis, such as distinctive clothing, not allowed to ride a horse, slapping you in the face when paying the ''tax'' ..... Another aspect is the myth that Jews in Muslim countries had it much better than European Jews.
12 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
Mike Feldman, Canada. Now I'll tell you about ''protection'' - protection was about money. We could almost always buy our way out of problems, bribery & corruption being a way of life in Arab countries. We frequently had ''friends'' who in return for favours, gifts, out-right payment, knew someone who could fix our problem. Bribery is an art-form actually. So, pardon me if I lack gratitude for this ''protection'' but I paid for it & owe no debt.
13 | ina-scotland, Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
peace,peace ,where there is no peace.How can Israel make peace with people who dont want peace? You gave them gaza they gave you rockets,you can NEVER get people who hate your very existance to co-exist alongside you and no ammount of negotiations will make the least difference to them.The USA is very well aware of this but chooses to pretend it's really Israel's fault rather than lose favour with the oilsheiks,who in turn hate the palistinians but fear provoking the uprising of the fundamentalists in their countries.So it's all one big game.
14 | Mike Feldman, Canada, Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
Thanks Terry. I'm not sure if Ahmet realizes how his seemilnly reconciliatory posts are undermined by his constant reference to the "debt of gratitude" we Jews should owe the Miuslims. We did O.K. for several thousand years before they came along. This bribery and corruption game seems to go on. Look at Afafat. I truly believe that one of the reasons he kept rejecting peace was that it would remove him from the financial control of the monies given to help his people. I've never heard one Arab leader say whay they must "give" Israel for peace. I guess the game goes on.
15 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
#14 Mike Feldman, Canada. If you're interested in really understanding the Middle-East, I'd suggest to you the book, "The Arab Mind" by Raphael Patai. It's an excellent study even going into child-rearing & personality formation. He also wrote "The Jewish Mind" ........maybe Ahmet would like to read it, he seems to like Jewish literature although his interpretations are more in the realm of paranoid fantasy conspiracy theories than rational analysis.
16 | Daniel Kahane, Miami, Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
Ahmet, I don't know where you get your information from, but you are clearly mistaken about how Jewish people and the traditional Jewish texts feel about muslims and non-Jews in general. You might be able to find a quote here and there from ancient texts that speak negatively about non-Jews, but you have to understand that in those times, non-Jews, for the most part had very few moral principles. This was before Christianity and Islam. If you visit Jewish communities, you will find that Jews respect Muslims very much - according to Jewish law, a Jew is even allowed to pray in a mosque!
17 | Noam D. Blume, Tira, Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
The Damascus Blood Libel of 1840 was instigated by Catholic priests against Jews, but it became a pretext for Muslim riots and massacres against Jews in dozens of cities in the Muslim world in the 19th century. No Zionist agents involved. The family of Maimonides fled al-Andalus c. 1150, with many others, when fundamentalist Muslims took over from the Umayyads, and oppressed the dhimmi. Lots of oppression of Jews in Muslim world. Dhimma protects Christians and Jews from the forced conversion inflicted on all others in Muslim realms. But it is apartheid.
18 | Noam D. Blume, Tira, Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
You can turn up passages in some Jewish texts that are intolerant toward non-Jews, and other passages that preach respect and kindness toward them. Not to equate, but the Quran shows a similar range. What matters is what's been practiced. The Jewish texts seem hyperbole and anger, not prescriptive. If you're reading in translation, this also can be misleading. The reference is to idol-worshippers. Islam is recognized by Judaism as monotheism, not idolatry. A Muslim who behaves morally achieves Heaven as b'nei Noach, per Jewish doctrine. But suicide bombers? Clerics who permit this? Try Sufism.
19 | Mike Feldman, Canada, Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
Ahmet's silence in these discussions is deafening.
20 | Yudi F USA, Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
Daniel Kahane...Ahmet is a Jew Hater...there is no explanation to him about how we Jews do not hate. Jews lived under Islamic rule for centuries and as long as they were "quiet" and obeyed Muslim law ..there were few pogroms. What burns Ahmet and the rest of the radical Jihadis is the presence of Jews (Israel) AND CONTROL OF JERUSALEM! AS LONG AS jEWS CONTROL JERUSALEM IT INVALIDATES MOHAMMED'S ISLAM. Ahmet talks of hate...ask him to explain why more Muslims kill each other than anybody else..witness Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, and last but not least...Afghanistan!
21 | Ahmet, Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
I respect Jews who respect others. I respect humans who respect other humans. But when some Jews make overgeneralizations about Muslims, it really makes one get angry.
We Mulims, like Jews, are too diverse to be lumped in one category. Besides, Jews say a lot of things that are not true about the Quran. For example, there are people on this forum who claim that the Quran urges Muslims to kill Jews. This is simply not true, it is a malice.
The Quran often rebukes Jews for deviating from the ten commandments, but it never condemns them for what they are, e.g. being Jewish.
22 | ahmet, Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
daniel Kahana, you are right about Jews being allowed to pray at mosques, because of Muslim monotheism and nonexistence of crucifixes, etc.
But Jews nowadays are really so hostile to Islam, that many Jews view Islam as their enemy.
There is a conflict in Israel-Palestine. And Muslims hasten to support their Palestinian brothers as Jews from all over the world hasten to support their Jewish brothers.
If we allow this to evolve into a religious was, everyone will lose.
The important this is to stop the dangerous game of dehumanization. Unfortunately, both peoples indulge in it.
23 | Ahmet, Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
Yudi F USA, I assure you I don't and won't need a certificate of good conduct from racist people like you.
IT is of course sad to see people kill each other. Civil wars and internal problems happen and unfortunately people get killed. They get killed not because they are Muslim or Christian or Jewish, but because they are humans with human failings.
At Ghetto Warsaw, most of the policemen manning the notorious roadblocks were Jewish, in 1947-48 Jews killed many Jews, Kaztner was accused of killing hundreds of thousands of Jews...and at Massada Jews slaughtered other Jew...to be followed
24 | ahmet, Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
More to the point, in ancient time, there was a war between the kingdoms of Israel, and the kindom of Judea...and many Jews killed other Jews.
Today, in the streets of Tel Aviv, Jews kill each other for the pettiest of things, like a whore or a 100-NIS bill.
You see, Jews are not superior to others human beings as you seem to believe. I know what I am talking about..because I lived among Jews.
Besides things like that happen all over the world. In the Russian revolution, millions got killed. In The Ameican civil war Christians killed tens of thousands of other Christians. ....
25 | Ahmet, Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
During WWII, more than 50 million people were killed. It was Christians killing Christians....and the most advanced country on earth then...Germany, committed ghastly crimes against humanity. So, why are you having a fixation on Islam and Muslims? There is one explanation for this...It is hatred..racism, depravity of thinking.
Yes, you may succeed in making a few peopel hate Islam...But remember, it makes even more people hate you.
We Muslims have been through it all, from creation to destruction. We can survive..But I am afraid you and your children will suffer because of this racism.
26 | Ahmet, Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
Noam D. Blume, Jews, too, bear part of the blame. When they publish Chesronot Shas and call Jesus "son of the whore" they certainly invite hatred unto themselves.
Jews can't just blame everything on anti-Semitism and forget their own sins.
Just look what Israel is now doing to the Paletinians. Poeple watch horrible things on their TV screens...So what are Muslims and other supposed to do when they watch these massacres?
Unfortunately, Israel today is the no. 1 generator of Jew hatred under the sun.
when Jews do evil, people hate them. This maxim applies to all times and all peoples.
27 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
#21 Ahmet, Istanbul. Indeed, Muslims are too diverse to be lumped into one catagory. However, Islam as an ideology, is not quite as diverse. Because this forum is limited to space, I won't quote from the Qurán - however, I would recommend to you to look at the websites The Religion of Peace, Jihad Watch, or MEMRI.org. There are many, many video clips on YouTube in which Muslim clerics call for the genocide of Jews. The Hamas Charter also calls for killing Jews. While still living in an Arab country, a good friend would tell me about the Friday sermons (his brother was quite the fanatic).
28 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
Ahmet, Istanbul. While none of the sermons he told me about called for murdering Jews, this was because the sermons were gov't. controled. But what he told me was horrifying enough. In addition, there were unauthorized cassette tapes from Saudi Arabia sold outside the mosques. The contents were absolutely abominable. I must say, however, that the gov't. frequently confiscated such material. I don't say these things with malicious intent - they are just, unfortunately, factual. I firmly believe that Muslims need to better understand the reality of Islam, it is not what you wish it to be.
29 | Ahmet, Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
Terry, Elat, you should be smarter and more educated than recommending that we seek information on Islam from MEMRI and Jihad Watch, and other hate sites. It is like seeking knowledge on Jews and Judadism from Nazi sites and David Dukes sites, etc.
Also, can't you have a moment of intellectual honesty...or perhaps you want this forum to stoop to the level of hatemongering...
No my friend,..if you wanna know about Islam, go to academia..not hate sites.
But, I am quite pleased, that many Jews on this forum are not carried away by your disinformation.
30 | Ahmet, Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
Terry, you have to make a distinction between what religion says, and what some followers do?
Baruch Goldstein, the infamous Jewish terrorist, murdered 29 Arab worshipers on 15 February, 1994....Rav. Dov Leor of Kiryat Arba said "a thousand non-Jewish lives are not worth a Jewish finger nail." Rav David Batsri said "Non-Jews are actually animals created in human shape."
I can cite thousands of hate-filled quotations from Jewish religious leaders and scriptures!
So..don't stretch this argument too much..none including Jews have a monopoly on suffering.
31 | Ahmet, Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
as to Hamas charter...I totally reject this charter? But don't Jews have similar charters?
Read the constitutions of Ha'bayt ha yahudi? or ha'Ichud ha'leumi? or that of Gush Emunim?
I also suggest you examine the curricula taught in Merkaz Ha'rav in Jerusalem?
You will discover marvelous things there.....The Palestinians have one Hamas...you have many.
If you indeed insist, I can quote from all these sources...It is embarassing..its disgraceful.
As Jews, you should have the ability to call the spade a spade especially when it happens to be in Jewish hands.
32 | Mike Feldman, Canada, Thursday Jun 25, 2009
Ahmet=I tried and I give up. You seen to be fixated on all things bad about the Jews. Whether or not you realize it, this is your rational for feelings of superiority. In fact, it seems that you are the racist. In terms of your view of the Jews and Muslims you talk like a plantation owner in the old south bragging about how well fed his slaves are. The worst part of all this for me is if you were a radical you could simply be humiliated into not posting. But I think you represent the moderate Ärab street"" and that's scary. You've opened my eyes to what the Israelsi must deal with
33 | Chaim - Israel, Thursday Jun 25, 2009
Considering the fraudulent "peace process" has been going on for two decades and we have nothingto show for it except tens of thousands of maimed and murdered civilians and thousands of rockets, Israelis would be loony to support it. Israel never suffered a single homoicide bomber till Oslo. Before Oslo, we suffered an average of about a dozen terror casualties annually. After Oslo, casualties skyrocketed to the tens of thousands. Israel has had enough. What we really need is victory without concessions. That is the true path to peace.
34 | Chaim - Israel, Thursday Jun 25, 2009
Considering the fraudulent "peace process" has been going on for two decades and we have nothingto show for it except tens of thousands of maimed and murdered civilians and thousands of rockets, Israelis would be loony to support it. Israel never suffered a single homoicide bomber till Oslo. Before Oslo, we suffered an average of about a dozen terror casualties annually. After Oslo, casualties skyrocketed to the tens of thousands. Israel has had enough. What we really need is victory without concessions. That is the true path to peace.
35 | David W. Lincoln, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, Thursday Jun 25, 2009
As long as Jews are not allowed to settle in "Palestine", as detailed in "Hitler's dream come true" by George Jonas, any pretense of equilibrium is amorphous at best.
As long as tribalism is at the heart of jihad, then those who see it that way will have to suffer the fate of that generation which saw the giving of the Decalogue, but did not cross over the Jordan to the Promised land.
For there are consequences to actions, but somehow those who do not want to see it, they will not see it.
36 | bannister , USA, Thursday Jun 25, 2009
All the Israelis and Palestinians together, are a smaller population then the LosAngeles metro area.
You Israelis are a problem way outside the dimension of your reality.
America needs this problem solved or it will face insurmountable energy and economic problems and frankly nothing happening in your area is worth the trouble.
37 | Szeni, Islington, Thursday Jun 25, 2009
Are there really 1.6 billion Muslims? Just to think that their biggest celebs are bin Laden, Kaddafi and other nutcases and mass murderers. Staggering that 1.6 billion Muslims can't produce half a dozen Nobel-prize winning scientists while 13 million Jews - over a hundred times fewer than Muslims - have top egg-heads in best labs and universities. Imagine what the world would have been like if there were 1.6 billion Jews!
38 | molly-glasgow, Thursday Jun 25, 2009
#36 another jew hater with no answers but a couple of negative responses as usual from your kind.I can almost guess what you are 1 an illiterate so called {Scholar} 2 obvious atheist,so therefore Jew hater as You lot KNOW DEEP DOWN that their IS a GOD WHO WATCHES over ISRAEL as how else can you explain a TINY nation of 6 million Jews surrounded by 140 millon muslims have survived since the REBIRTH of THEIR nation.6 arab countries sent in their armies and couldn't defeat a poorly armed TINY army.THAT's why your kind are FULL of hate and rage. The God Of Israel still Reigns.
39 | Mike Feldman,, Canada, Thursday Jun 25, 2009
Molly-I'm not sure Bannister is crazy about the Palistinians either. He just isn't interested in anything that's not in his backyard. I highly doubt that he has the mental capacity to determne what is and what isn't worth the trouble. He's actually quite fearful that a little country like Israel could be the cause of "insurmountable" energy and ecoonomic problemss. Given that Israel has no oil, I would have to think some other countries would be the cause of the insumountable energy crisis. If Israel had oil Bannister would say the Arabs aren't worth the trouble. He's not worth your time.
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