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Wednesday Oct 21, 2009
Rosner's Domain: Readers' idea for investigating GoldstonePosted by SHMUEL ROSNER
Comments: 158      Writes reader Richard Ross, Visiting Professor at the University of Pennsylvania Law School: In the wake of the US, Britain and France urging Israel to investigate the Gaza operation, there has been talk of an Israeli civilian commission. Here's an idea. Perhaps Israel could set up a civilian commission with three mandates: (1) Investigate charges against the IDF contained in the Goldstone report. (2) Investigate (and in the process futher document) charges against Hamas contained in the Goldstone report (e.g. use of civilians as shields, rocket launches against civilian Israeli targets, etc.). And (3) investigate the biases and methodological errors that led the Goldstone commission towards its unwarranted condemnations of Israel and its underplaying of Hamas war crimes. Beyond the immediate context of the Goldstone report, mandate (3) could contribute towards generating a set of "best practices" for commissions investigating armies fighting insurgents and terrorists who hide among civilians. Comments? other suggestions?
1 | David - Tel Aviv, Wednesday Oct 21, 2009
Perhaps, Israel should inform the Security Council that it will gladly set up a commission to investigate
the IDF operations in Gaza if the Council will also mandate the establishment of similar commisions to investigate USA and UK military ops in Iraq and Afghanistan, Russian military ops in Chechnya and Georgia, Chinese military ops in Tibet and Sinkiang, Turkish military ops in northern Iraq, Sudanese military ops in Darfur, etc.
2 | Sally - U.S.A., Wednesday Oct 21, 2009
The Goldstone report is an insinuated blackmail threat to Israel: Freeze all settlements or else you will be prosecuted for war crimes. 1. Both Britain & France abstained from voting, although Britain had even said that the IDF did an exceptional job in protecting civilian life, & both Britain & France told Israel, inter alia, after the vote that the entire matter would be buried if Israel freezes settlements. 2. The US joined the UNHRC. It could have stopped the Goldstone "investigation" in its tracts given the false premise underwhich the "investigation" began. The false premise being:
3 | Sally - U.S.A., Wednesday Oct 21, 2009
(con't) Israel committed crimes just by attempting to stop Hamas's attacks. That is like saying the US is committing war crimes just by stopping further 9/11 attacks by going into Afghanistan. 3.The US appointed as its representative in the UNHRC Samatha Powers. She is a vocal proponent of the false Jenin Masacre. So aside from the HRC having a history for bashing Israel, Ms. Powers already has a propensity to view Israel in the wrong even if the evidence says otherwise. 4. The US postponed the vote once; they could have told Abbas to back down. But look what happened during this time period
4 | Sally - U.S.A., Wednesday Oct 21, 2009
(con't) Obama specifically said that he does not recognize the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlements, Israel refused to freeze permanently all settlements, Abbas will not meet with Israel without the precondition of all settlement freezes, & Abbas was castigated by the Arab Palestinians for not going through with the vote in the UNHRC. 6. Goldstone had specifically said, at least according to the J'Post & Dershowitz, that these were allegations & could not stand up in a court of law. (i.e. the report lacked credence). So the entire report should have been dismissed, but was not.
5 | Sally - U.S.A., Wednesday Oct 21, 2009
(con't) 7. Israel has since March conducted its own investigations of allegations arising out of Gaza & submitted to every other UN request about Gaza. The difference with the UNHRC is that it started out saying Israel was guilty before the inquiry began. In conclusion, another inquiry is silly & pointless. The main point is to have Israel bow to blackmail.
6 | Mike Feldman, Canada, Wednesday Oct 21, 2009
Sally. Just want to commend your thoughtful and thorough blog before the usual suspects pollute this topic.
7 | Sally - U.S.A., Wednesday Oct 21, 2009
Thank you Mike. I want to add another point. Hypothetically, if the report were to go further, the West, like Britain, France, US, etc... would be going after the very people, Labor (Ehud Barak) & Kadima (Olmet & Livni), who would at one time support their stand (settlement freeze) the most because Likud was not in power during this time period. So the West & Abbas would be, to use a trite phase, "shooting themselves in the foot." No government in Israel would take chances because of the consequences. They would be damned if they do & damned if they don't.
8 | Colin Beck, Surrey, B.C., Canada, Wednesday Oct 21, 2009
IS THE GOLDSTONE REPORT ANTI - POPERY? I THINK SO. W'olmert the faithful is being judged because he's the greatest pope in the history of the Holy Roman Empire. [ 2 Jewish expulsions and 2 papal wars in 4 years ] If they can stop W'olmert [ alias, the glad mahdi of Tehran ] early he won't be able to gather up the donations necessary from the 10,000 immortals to upgrade his golf membership, and get himself out of El Al's cheap seats. The Stone of Scone rightfully belongs in Israel, and with it comes the rulership of the Anglo - American democracies and wee Willie the rascal's Church of England.
9 | Daran, UK, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
Sally, I have consistently said the IDF took extraordinary measures to prevent deaths in Cast Lead, Goldstone himself and every one who has concerns for Israel has only urged that the investigations into allegations be conducted by arm of Israel state other than the army. such an investigation makes ICC moot. The nature of the UNHRC and its focus on Israel has caused this investigation to be rejected (mistakenly imho) This following many high profile mistakes. Banning journalists, Ashkenazi denying WP use to the Knesset and the world, The "wrapping up" of investigation announced by Barak cont
10 | Daran, UK, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
Sally cont. Only to have AG to to "revue" the debriefs, and to send them to supreme court judge for his "thoughts". There are serious allegations currently being investigated, I don't doubt if Israeli's find wrongdoing they will prosecute. Compare this to Hamas, who would be fleeing this investigation and its consequences (and should) if Israel had played it differently. UK abstaining has more to with the resolution to be voted on, lacking the Hamas focus. Questions about Gaza remain, why ring Hamas member to tell him IDF going to bomb 2nd day but not policemen 1st strike 1st day for example
11 | Daran, UK, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
It not blackmail to call for settlement freeze its backing international law and the previously signed agreements, you know Sally those sort of agreements that people can read the signatures, text and that the parties acknowledge as "real" .
12 | lydia, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
Disgusting how you attacks Goldstone. If any one jew could have whitewashed your atrocities in Gaza he would have. Israel thought they could prevent Hamas from broadcasting the pictures but couldn't. To turn on Goldstone like a pack of rabid dogs because he held Israel to a higher standard is spineless. A man of conscience forced to choose between high morals and Israels savagery, he chose the former. Send your lot of unconscionable mass murderers off to l' Hague. Throw them all in the same holding cell as the other mob from Darfur and Sudan but leave Goldstone alone, HE IS AN HONORABLE MAN!
13 | Lydia-hell, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
Disgusting how you attacks Hitler. If any one xian could have whitewashed your atrocities in Europe he would have. Germany thought they could prevent Hamas from broadcasting the pictures but couldn't. To turn on Hitler like a pack of rabid dogs because he held Germany to a higher standard is spineless. A man of conscience forced to choose between high morals and Israels savagery, he chose the former. Send your lot of unconscionable mass murderers off to l' Hague. Throw them all in the same holding cell as the other mob from Darfur and Sudan but leave Hitler alone, HE IS AN HONORABLE MAN
14 | Richard Pearce, Calgary Alberta Canada, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
If I didn't know how people rarely question what they believe to be true, I would be shocked at how Israel has attacked Goldstone. He did everything he could, within the limits of credibility, to protect Israel, and yet is vilified. The only thing he had to work with to do that was the rockets, and they were pretty thin, compared to the blockade and raids. From the victims point of view, the attack on them is always a huge deal, but when both sides are attacked, the other sees the attack on them as a huge deal as well. He padded the part about the rockets, but there are limits to that.
15 | Tom, US, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
13 | Lydia-hell - Your inner nature coming to the fore Feldman ?
16 | Gerry ,Australia, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
Comment 9-Quote "Sally, I have consistently said the IDF took extraordinary measures to prevent deaths in Cast Lead".Well what a load of Crap!,let the statstics speak for themselves, PALESTINIANS KILLED 1400,JEWS KILLED 13:Sounds more like genocide than a war!
17 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
You can't fight irrationality with rational argument. Facts mean absolutely nothing in this discussion. This is a kangaro court, a lynching, the ultimate in double-standards & turning reality on it's head.
All the fact-based arguments in the world will make no difference - the accusations themselves have already served their purpose. As usual, we are on the defensive, a strategically weak position. To avoid reprecussions, actual consequences, we can only impress upon others that this is a very bad precedent which can have consequences for their own countries.
18 | Daran, UK, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
Gerry I assume that you realise that IDF could have leveled Gaza, causing untold deaths and injuries. You may have questions about proportionality but that would be a civilised conversation with people who at least seek to limit their actions to those occasions they consider military options necessary. contrast this with Hamas and their deliberate attempt to target civilians in what amounts to a terror campaign for political ends. 14000 hamas "troops" they said they had, where the f888 were they when the "oppressors" forces were right on their doorstep under the covers behind kids and hospita
19 | jihadist and anti_israel propaganda watch, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
#12,lydia="Send your lot of unconscionable mass murderers...Throw them all in the same holding cell as the other mob from Darfur and Sudan but leave Goldstone alone, HE IS AN HONORABLE MAN!" lydia, the "honorable" jihadist or christian or jewish or communist or whatever, it's a progress for you to sophisticate your propaganda by bringing in Darfur (without mentioning the genocide there by Sudan, though) also, even so you fully know nobody from Sudan nor Darfur would be in that holding cell.
20 | Daran, UK, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
Terry we in the UK have no fear of the highest international standards, nor should the IDF, of course you would have the IDF as "einsatzguppen" give many of your previous posts. Terry, Israel is already moving to comply with the Goldstone recommendations, because they had too. Unfortunately UNHCR bias against Israel led Israel to reject this report (mistakenly imho). Are the current investigations by AG a "lyching" and "kangaroo". Terry, it seems, you don't have a problem with the deaths of innocents most others in the world do.
21 | Jack Trent, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
This American wants Israel STOPPED. Hell, I want JEWS stopped. I live in Occupied America - and I can say with certainty that Americans have more to fear from Jews than Muslims.
We have been robbed and fleeced, brainwashed and enlisted to Islamophobia - much the way we were enlisted to your battle with Aryans.... with the Germans becoming prisoners in their own country.
This American is hoping Iran is as dangerous as you say. Someone must save the world from Jews.
22 | jihadist and anti-Israel propaganda watch, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
#16,Gerry ,Australia="what a load of Crap!,let the statstics speak for themselves, PALESTINIANS KILLED 1400,JEWS KILLED 13:Sounds more like genocide than a war! " Raport would be then 1400/13=108 still much less than the raport of 1/0 in any case of entirely successful one on one self defense for instance.
23 | Tom, US, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
18 | Daran - They came very close to leveling Gaza and did cause untold injuries. Besides the over 1400 dead how many thousands were injured ? Then they went off and bulldozed the chicken farms and orange groves. What does that have to do with fighting terrorism or self defense ? You earned this report and now you are square up face to face with it. Last December and January you were all screaming for the IDF to slaughter everybody in Gaza. Now you act shocked that you are being called on it. Children act like this.
24 | Mike Feldman, Canada, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
#15 Tom. Sorry, Try again. As a covert with decades of experience you should have been able to analyse #13 and know it wasn't me. However, #12 was vintage lydia. Gerry, amazing how Hamas can initiate hostilites and hide among women and children, but consequences are IDF's fault. You get a zero for objectivity.
25 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
#18 Daran. Given the circumstances of the Goldstone report, it's total lack of fairness, objectivity, & moral authority, every military on Earth would have something to fear from a similar ''investigation'' - baseless accusations, biased evidence (I hesitate to even use that word, there was no ''evidence''), a predetermined guilty verdict, etc. Israel should set up a special War Crimes Tribunal & begin similar ''investigations'' of every participant in any conflict. And why not the UK in Iraq & Afghanistan? And the U.S. as well. And we could use the same standards as Goldstone.
26 | Daran, UK, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
Tom your entirely wrong about how I viewed Cast lead and the Goldstone report, I do accept that Israel has questions to answer about methods and incidents but those questions at least can be answer by the IDF . Will Hamas send those responsible for the rocket attacks to the Hague or those who decided on that "policy" I think you know the answer to that. Even if you do consider elements of the operation appear to be "price tag" on ordinary Palestinians amounting to collective punishment. Hamas and its "resistance" policy have induced the Israeli's to act. Their motives don't serve Palestinians
27 | David USA, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
# 12 Lydia -you are, of course. right. This incredibly filthy massive assault on the honour of the ONE righteous man in this crowd is nothing but the usual impotent rage of the guilty conscience to bury the messenger. But it seems that this particuar messenger refuses to be buried. Good . Kol hakavod to him , stand tall ! Tzedek, tzedek tirdof !
28 | The other Bob - USA, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
Jack Trent. America only declared war on Japan. Germany, as Japan's ally, then declared war on America. How did the Jews arrange that? 308 million Americans, of whom 5.5 are Jewish. Jew occupied America? 13.5 million Jews are a threat to the world? I never realized we had such super human power. Thanks Jack, you've made me feel much better. By the way, since we control the Internet, your post has been back traced and we know where you live. Jew controlled Homeland Security will pick you up tonight and you'll be in Gitmo by dawn. Have a nice day. You're a raving lunatic.
29 | jihadist and anti-Jewish reasoning and hate watch, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
#21,Jack Trent="..I want JEWS stopped. ...Americans have more to fear from Jews than Muslims. We have been robbed and fleeced, brainwashed and enlisted to Islamophobia...This American is hoping Iran is as dangerous as you say. Someone must save the world from Jews."Jack, unfortunately all the Jews are not so much better then you are that you and your kind could never find reasons to hate all the Jews.
30 | David M USA, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
There should be a commission to investigate Richard Goldstone. The commission should examine how Goldstone selected Chritine Chinkin as his investigator. Chinkin called Israel a war criminal before the Goldstone commission began. Goldstone also selected a diplomat from a country that does not recognize Israel's right to exist as his deputy. Goldstone violated every section in the code of judicial cnduct. The UNHRC resolution endorsing Goldstone omits any reference to rocket fire against Sderot. Goldstone could have protested that but he was silent. Yes another investiation is due-of Goldstone
31 | Theo R USA, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
Add Jack Trent to the list of Jew hating bastards! There is alsoTom suck his thumb, Jihadist anti jewish non reasoning, Quentin Hult em in tuchas, "ban asster" lydia-go to hell, David not Jewish pretender who list in here.They hate Jews not only Israel. Israel sticks in their throats and these hate mongers are jealous over the success of a little state that in 60 years has been so extrordinary it boggles the mind, and with so many enemies at her borders. As for "Cast Lead"Isreal stopped to soon! Next time it will "CAST RATE" hamas! 1400 civilians? How about 140 thou in Hiroshima! A pox on u!
32 | Ruslan Tokhchukov, USA, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
Investigate Goldstone on his role in false prosecution of Serbs for "war crimes" that did not occur; investigate his role in the hate campaign against the entire Serb people that was a prelude to NATO' s illegal, criminal war of aggression against sovereign Yugoslavia and Serbia.
Ruslan Tokhchukov, USA
33 | Richard Pearce Calgary Alberta Canada, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
I notice a lot of people keep making the claims that "every army in the world will have to face war crimes charges if the IDF does" Let's take a look. Canada had an elite unit called the Canadian Airborne Regiment. Then, when they were sent to Somalia. One act, by two soldiers, was reported. This lead to a public inquiry, that probed deeply, and wasn't just a whitewash (though that was attempted, and the inquiry was cut short) The result? Besides punishing individuals, the entire unit was disbanded, and even the name was retired
Discipline your own protects you from having others do it
34 | Daran, UK, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
Terry many of the "problems" you cite about Goldstone could have been addressed by Israeli participation. If Israel or any other nation has allegations to make against British armed forces let them be made, "baseless" ones will be found out by judicial process. Just as recent allegations made by "whistleblower" were met by the armed services minister announcing independent investigation as instructed too by the High court.
35 | Mike Feldman, Canada, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
Reviewing #'s12, 15, 16, (prize to #21), 23, and 27, it seems that my #6 was prescient. Wish everything in life was so predictable.
36 | Speakout, Norway, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
Our friend Richard in Canada #33 makes a certain point - but should fulfil his drift of argument (just like some closet Israel-critics on this blog should be barred from opening theirs) : The world wide body of UN/SC/subs has proved its disability to cope with world wide problems; reason is simple : human mind is generally (UN is made up of ordinaries) too limitied to handle complex global matters (judeo-christian wisdom). Strong parties "bully" the smaller ones and the minor ones are governed by such feeling of inferiority like a Nobel Peace Price for Mr. Obama. Recipe ? Regional Rule
37 | Speakout, Norway, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
Daran #20 : world could be too complicated to match even your capacities; if you are British (which I still doubt) you should not be too self confident about your "highest international standards". How far back should we go ? Maybe to the Second Boer War (1899-1902) when the British crushed the freedom of the pride Boer by locking up (and killing) thousands of Boer fighters' spouses and children in world's first ever concentration camps, which, if this was known to ordinary British citizens at that time (no Internet), would have made world's loadest outcry - even measued by today's standards
38 | Michael Greenberg, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
As to #3--the methodological errors-- the ERROR in "The LAW" that assumes disproortionate force is itself a violation of "humanitarian rights"...
Such a "legal " phiosophy would have to FIRST state that in HISTORICAL TERMS,The entire WORLD has been disproportionately violating JEWISH human rights for countlkess centuries....If the "LAW" cannot DOCUMENT that all the weight of centuries of pogroms,expulsions,Inquisitions, SHOAHS,and WAR attacks on Jews and the Jewish state give Jews the right of disproortionate self-defense THEN
any such "LAW" of DISPROPORTION is a MOCKERY of "rights"!
39 | Michael Greenberg, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
Again as to #3--biases of "international law" application in these circumstances of terrorists hiding among civilian populations --- IS there a BIAS among such international jurists to apply the "LAW" absolutely -OR can FACTS like say the "innocent civilians" actually supportinmg the terorist methods
cause forefiture of their so called "humanitarian rights" ?..In other words do they have any rights if they harbour and encourage or simoly show no desire to stop the terrorists hiding among them?
If they encurage their kids to give up their lives for the same "cause" as the terrorists?
40 | CARES1996, Thursday Oct 22, 2009
dave#1 try not to include allies in your frustration,this is what the opposition druell`s over,WE FREEDOM LOVING PEOPLE OF GOD KNOW THE MILIARY DID ALL POSSIBLE TO PROTECT INNOCENTS,DON`T LET THOSE OF LESSER INTELLECT,ABSENT OF MORALITY UPSET YOU,THAT`S THE ADVERSARY WE FACE,if a jihadist calls you an infidel does that bother you,try to think of it in same fashion.THERE PROPAGANDA ONLY SUCCEEDS IF WE LET IT,THATS ALL IT IS,ANOTHER AREA TO ATTEMPT DIVISION,DON`T FRET WERE ON THE GOOD SIDE,TAKE A WALK ALONG THE BEACH MAYBE YOU`LL SEE FREINDS PLAYING IN THE WATER RELAX MAN GOD`S WITH YOU
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