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Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
Rosner's Domain: J Street finds "truth on both sides"Posted by SHMUEL ROSNER
Comments: 51      If you're as lucky as I am, you got an email earlier this week from Isaac Luria of J Street (the dovish Jewish lobby group) saying this: At this moment of extreme crisis, J Street wants to demonstrate that, among those who care about Israel and its security, there is a constituency for sanity and moderation. There are many who recognize elements of truth on both sides of this gaping divide and who know that closing it requires strong American engagement and leadership. I really don't know what "truth on both sides" means (remember: one side is Israel, the other one is Hamas), but "sanity" I do recognize - and this mail from a self-proclaimed pro-Israel lobby was pushing the envelope a bit too far for my taste. Anyway, I was going to write something about this mail-message, but James Kirchick - a veteran of anti J Street wars - beat me to it: during the first major Israeli military operation since the 2006 Hezbollah War, at a time when the vast majority of Israelis and American Jews support what Israel is doing, J Street steps out of the shadows as the voice of communal dissent, joined by the likes of the United Nations and the Guardian editorial board (even the Arab League tacitly supports what Israel is doing, seeing that Hamas is an Iranian front). J Street has the right to its extreme leftist, capitulationist opinions, but it does not have the right to claim, as Ben-Ami once did, that it represents the broad, sensible mainstream of pro-Israel American Jews. J Street doesnt even represent the views of left-wing Israelis. I believe my view of J Street is somewhat more nuanced than Kirchick's, but this last email makes it more difficult for me to understand what they want. Since Kirchick didn't bother quoting more extensively from it, I will do it - in the hope that this will not be considered an attempt to help Luria's cause: While there is nothing "right" in raining rockets on Israeli families or dispatching suicide bombers, there is nothing "right" in punishing a million and a half already-suffering Gazans for the actions of the extremists among them. And there is nothing to be gained from debating which injustice is greater or came first. What's needed now is immediate action to stop the violence before it spirals out of control. The United States, the Quartet, and the world community must not wait - as they did in the Israel-Lebanon crisis of 2006 - for weeks to pass and hundreds or thousands more to die before intervening. There needs to be an urgent end to the new hostilities that brings a complete end to military operations, including an end to the rocket fire out of Gaza, and that allows food, fuel and other civilian necessities into Gaza.
1 | At, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
Look at history. Whenever Jews enlist Nonjews to fight other Jews, it always ends badly for all Jews.
Today in Israel and the US, Jewish Leftists actively recruit Nonjews to impose Leftist ideology on Israel. The future will fail to be what these Leftist Jews had hoped!
When Jews argue with eachother, its good. When Jews hate eachother, its bad. When Jews rally Nonjews to attack other Jews, its catastrophe.
2 | George in America, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
Happy New Year to all! I am an American! I and a growing number of Americans are begining to detest Israel. Not for being Jewish or for their unfair treatment of the Pals. It's because no foreign government should have the power Israel has over our (AMERICAN) government. Washington is just like the West Bank, an Israeli occupied territory. Even though the lobbists in DC claim to be American they place the needs of Israel above whats best for the US. We can't stop it from happening. We can't keep our traitorous congress from serving Israel. All we can do is blame Israel. American is waking up.
3 | Joseph-Miami, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
George in America, you are showing your true colors. Your ignorance about power over the USA shows youe stupidity. The US does what it sees as in its best interest. Hamas would be a natural ally to the type of person you are. People that cut off arma or crush arms of kids for stealing bread, are they your type of ally? Why don't you just admit it, Israel gives you a good target to express your hatred for Jews be they in Israel or roght here in the US. The US is a democracy and lobbying your representative is a right which may not appeal to you of a facist tendency.
4 | Hal, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
Jewish Americans have as much right to influence America as Baptist Americans, or Muslim Americans, for that matter. Tolerance = Propserity. Tolerance is what makes America great. Tolerance is exactly what the Arab world needs now more than anything.
5 | Sanders, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
I feel that Christians have too much influence over the US government. Why is Christmas, a religious holiday for a portion of Americans, a legal holiday? Why aren't Purim or Ramadan legal holidays? Maybe something should be done about the disproportionate influence of Christians.
6 | Boaz, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
I too sounded like this back in 2000. "I don't excuse Arab violence, but Sharon's visit (to the Temple Mount) was provocative," e.g. However, in 2000 we did not yet know that Oslo was dead, and had spent 3 years training ourselves in the Oslo process - of sympathising with the Arabs (to say nothing of arming them) in exchange for... nothing. Nothing but empty promises and hot air. I have no doubt the people of J Street are earnest and sincere, but if 8 years of bombers, rocketeers, and bulldozer-ers have not taught them anything, there is a problem and it is in their heads, not in Israel.
7 | Larry Levine Blacklick Ohio, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
J Street dosnt' represent Jews or Israelis. They are just nutty far leftists that will criticize Israel for just being Israel. They have no influence on anybody but people who already hate Jews and Israel.
George by the way you are a moron! Israel has no power over the US. Congress supports Israel because the vast majority of Americans support Israel that would include Christians and Jews. Israel has given so much to the world in the way of technology, medicine etc. Israel is 100 percent supportive of the US and is its most reliable ally. Stop reading white supremacist sites and grow up!
8 | Larry Levine Blacklick Ohio, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
J Street dosnt' represent Jews or Israelis. They are just nutty far leftists that will criticize Israel for just being Israel. They have no influence on anybody but people who already hate Jews and Israel.
George by the way you are a moron! Israel has no power over the US. Congress supports Israel because the vast majority of Americans support Israel that would include Christians and Jews. Israel has given so much to the world in the way of technology, medicine etc. Israel is 100 percent supportive of the US and is its most reliable ally. Stop reading white supremacist sites and grow up!
9 | sinnerconman (Malaysia), Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
The only aim of Hamas is the destruction of the nation Israel.They will kill, kill and continue to kill Israelis, including their own people the Palestinians. They will never let any Israeli alive and these terrorists are the proxy of Iran, the country trying to build nuclear weapons to destroy Israel. Resettle the people of J Street to southern Israel bordering Gaza together with their families so that they can send flowers and olives to Hamas everyday.
10 | Don in China, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
...This "tribal" jewish/Israeli "thing" is driving me insane...Im an Australian working in China ...and at least China has no damn "christians" who think they are planning "Gods work" and invading somewhere like Iran or Iraq or ...where next ?
The sound of another yank accent saying they have the right of return to Israel after 2000 years is just ...well what can I say.
The jews were supposed to remember what Holocausts were like ...the ghettos of Warsaw ..the removal of rights to property ...but they are immediately after the war inflicting these atrrocities on the inhabitants of Palestine.
11 | Gil J. Yashar, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
Happy New Year to you too George #2! It is understandable given casualties and costs in Iraq and economic woes that a growing number of Americans are beginning to detest Israel. On the other hand I know some Americans who appreciate Israel more and detest Islamists more for the same reasons. It is good to read that you are not anti-Jewish though I think you have to be careful in your choice of ZOG (Zionist Occupied Gvt.) rhetoric, which is common with David Duke and Stormfornt style white racialists.
12 | Avraham - Yerushalayim, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
Once a group "proudly" lists the support of Avram Burg, it pretty much says everything you need to know about them.
13 | Road Taker, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
I agree with goerge , We start to shift our feeling years from domanance of Israel lobbists
It is only a matter of time and Israel would not find any people who like it in USA
14 | Gil J. Yashar - Beit Shemesh, Israel, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
George # 2 - In addition to AIPAC and other pro-Israel lobbyists there are many foreign and domestic lobbyists with special interests, such as CAIR (Council of American Islamic Relations), pro-life, pro-choice, etc. All try to convince US politicians that their special interest is an American interest. You can "keep your traitorous congress from serving Israel", it is just not easy to do so when faced with other lobbyists armed with photos of wild-eyed Islamic fundamentalists burning US flags.
15 | davidd, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
Let's do the smell test:
first, George #2: somewhere between Pat Buchanan & Aryan Nation. What you say is trendy, a la Walt & Mearsheimer, but incorrect. Are gun owners or the over-50 set traitorous for having strong lobbies? Do we hear that the US gov't is "elderly-occupied territory" or "Gun-toter central"? of course not!
US Gov't's have had lobbies & lobbying problems since the early 18th century. Get over it.
George, you are a bigot, but you don't acknowledge it. Work on it.
16 | Yidith, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
Haha!! LOLing here! Gotta love that crazy moral equivalency thinking; Jstreet's "logic" (for lack of a better word) is symptomatic of a serious intellectual disability the sound-bite generation is suffering from. "Opinions are like arm-pits; everyone has them. The only one worth listening to is an INFORMED opinion" Why spend one second on Jstreet type blather anyway?; what compels you to take their opinion into consideration? Analogy: If you're looking for a medical specialist' opinion do you go to a pet-food store?
17 | davidd, teaneck, NJ USA, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
Smell test -- Don #10
Jews are tribal, huh? Are Italians not, Irish not, Indians not tribal? Let's call it "identification with a group". No doubt Don identifies with Australians. Let's say the aborogines started accumulating rockets and shot "just a few a day" at Sydney. And, i dare say, old chap, that the aborigines have a much better territorial claim to Australia than Palestinians have to exclusive rights to Jerusalem! What would the peaceloving Australians do after the negotiations failed? Probably not surrender.
18 | Ronald USA, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
Ben Ami says it is wrong to punish a million and a half Gazans for the actions of the extremists among them. The falacy of Ben Ami's argument is that everything we know to be true about the Gazans is that about 2/3 of them, or about one million, support Hamas 100%. Israel is defending herself against a very popular, Islamic, movement convinced of the virtue in killing Jews. The relatively small enemy of which Ben Ami tries to convince us, doesn't exist. If it did (a hypothetical 50,000 men, women, and children), shouldn't the IDF be able to defeat them?
19 | davidd, teaneck, NJ USA, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
Smell test, Don #10
We "tribal" Jews have been yearning to return to Israel for 2000 years; it is our homeland for a lot longer than Australia's recorded history. The Holocaust was merely the final catalyst for achieving the dream. The League of Nations made it ours in 1920 by int'l law. We're entitled, despite your looking down your nose at us.
20 | Hal, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
Tolerance = Prosperity. It is unethical to tolerate Hamas - because Hamas is intolerant.
21 | davdd, Teaneck, NJ USA, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
smell test Don #10
Lastly, equating the Holocaust with Gaza's situation is obscene & as you would self-righteously say "well, what can I say?" I can say it smacks of historical blindness, idiocy or bias. Neither is pretty.
How many Gazans have been rounded up and shot this week? How many gassed, deported to death camps, boycotted, plundered?
How many Jews shot rockets toward Berlin in the 1930s? How many preached Germany's destruction?
How many Gazans feel that Jews are worthy of annihilation and teach same in school? How many Jews are taught same about Arabs?
22 | Reuben USA, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
To Don #10. I believe that it was your fellow Australians who hunted Aborigines as animals and only acknowledged their humanity in the 1970s. Thanks for the morality lessons. Am Yisrael Hai!
23 | Shahid Syed - Karachi, Pakistan, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
Liberal pro-Israel groups, in particular, J Street should know that creation of the state of Israel was also met with hostility. Did it mean that Israel should have surrendered and deviated from the formation of the state of Israel? Is it the so-called Dovish Way?
24 | Elusive Peace, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
Israel can do no wrong, please Mr. Treasury Secretary tax more of my dollars so Israel can be stronger. End of story
25 | Ralph P USA, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
Don in China...Oh Yeah, China is the perfect nation of democracy! Australia should be glad to be shed of you! Stay in China ...are you making "made in China " labels? When Australia gives back the Aborigines their land...when the USA gives back Texas to Mexico.....then all the Jews will leave Israel. Ron...stay in China.. you'll fall in love with a nice Chinese girl and please only have one Child..too much .sex is prohibted there lol. I would remind you Ronny ole boy that China has had many missionaires there preaching that "hateful" Christianity!
26 | Jan Poller, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
I too, recieved the letter from J Street. I have a less than benign view of J Street, founded by George Soros to be anti-AIPAC.
I consider them to be somewhat anti-Israel. They seem to be far more concerned about people who voted Hamas into power, people who celibrate the deaths of Jews and who do not protest attacks on civilian Israelis than they are on what happense to Jews in Israel.
I find an alwful lot of phony humanism on the left. They are concerned with the palestinains only. the put no effort into protesting the slaughts in Darfur or Africa.
27 | Jan Poller, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
#10: Don in China
Do you feel as angry about Muslims all over the world who feel they are doing Allah's work?
28 | SCOTT - USA, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
I WONDER HOW MANY AMERICANS WOULD ENJOY ROCKET ATTACKS EVERYDAY. IT'S EASY TO TELL SOMEONE ELSE TO BE RESTRAINED WHEN IT'S THEIR LOVED ONES IN DANDER AND NOT YOURS. THE LEFT IS ALWAYS WILLING TO COMPASSIONATE AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHERS.
29 | Response to Elusive Peace, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
Palestinians can do no wrong. (LOL) You see, Palestinians arent really humans - theyr incapable of moral decision making and cant be held responsible for their own actions. Please treat Palestinians like children. Or better yet like pets. Blame all errors on anyone else, or anything else, except Palestinians.
30 | Proud Israeli living in the bowels of Babylon for now., Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
The j stree lobby group doesnot represent me or anyone in my family. Living the good American life has softened their brains. They need to go live in Israel where the hamas missiles are falling. Let's see if after a month the feel the same as now. I lived in Israel during war and terrorist attacks. I hope to be going back within the next year. My son and his 2 young sons are going back in 2 1/2 weeks. I worry about them. Iknow that most Israelis come together in time of war.My prayers and thoughts are with the IDF and all Israel. May HaShem be with you all.
31 | Eitan Levy, Bat Ayin, Israel, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
Rosner, you're usualy so astute. What is preventing you from seeing J-street as the left-wing wackos they are?
32 | JKF, Ottawa, Canada, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
It is evidently clear now that Hamas does not nor ever did have the interest of the Palestinians on their agenda. Hamas has procured thousands of tons of weapons, with aid money, instead of spending the money to better the future of Gaza Pals. Hamas is nothing more than a terrorist proxy organization for Iran. Israel may be the first country that succeds in rolling back an Iranian proxy terrorist organization. US/Allies have not been able to roll back Iranian terrorists in Iraq, or the Persian Gulf or Lebanon and Afghanistan is not looking much better. Western nations ned to fully back Israel!
33 | Rob really "In America", Wednesday Dec 31, 2008
George "in America" is unlikely to be in America. Probably, some Palestinian propagandist sending his e-mail right out of Gaza. Typical tale (Elders of Zion variation) that they like to propagate.
34 | Anthony, USA, Thursday Jan 01, 2009
JStreet traitors forget what Hanuka was about: The defeat of Hellenistic Jews, who favored Greek values and lifestyle over their own Jewish religion. Like JStreet, Hellenistic Jews subverted the national interest, murdered religious Jews, and caused mayhem with occupation forces in order to "live peacefully." Today's Hellenist Jews are JStreet, and they are just as dangerous to the modern state of Israel as their philosophical counterparts were 2200 years ago to the Jewish nation. They support the Arab occupation of the Temple Mount & Jewish homes across the M.E.
35 | Tony, PA, USA, Thursday Jan 01, 2009
Don in China - what do you say about the Arab occupation of Jewish homes, land, farms and businesses throughout the Muslim world, as well as in Jerusalem and Hebron, beginning in the 1930s? One million Jewish refugees from the Muslim and Arab countries, and from ancient Jewish towns in Israel, fled to or were forcibly relocated to Israel up to the 1950s, post-Holocaust. Greater numbers than the Arab refugees. These Jewish refugees have no right of return, no expected compensation, and obviously no one advocating for them. You are a hypocrite, and Jews have totally had it with hypocrites.
36 | Maverick US, Thursday Jan 01, 2009
You blame the left. It is always the left, blah, blah, blah. The fact is that many people are critical of Israel's policies and some of these are strict constitutionalists and libertarian conservatives and then there are a motley bunch whose views stem from the sentiments of New England Transcendentalism. Yes. the spirit of Thoreau still lives. End the aggression, return to the tadhiya and begin formal talks. The U.S. must reexamine its foreign policy and shun the ugly heritage of Manifest Destiny. It can commence by linking its financial support of Israel to the Peace Process.
37 | Julia Baker, Thursday Jan 01, 2009
I cannot believe the irrational views that I have scrolled up to read. PLEASE !! Palestinians as embodied by the late Arafat have one agenda which they share with Iran..the complete annihilation of the land of Israel. A little recent history review...Arafat was given everything on asilver platter at Camp David during the presidency of Clinton. He refused. He was not interested in sovereignty or for the advancement of his people. His singular mission was the destruction of Israel. This dubious baton was passed on to Hamas.
38 | Michael L - Sydney Australia, Thursday Jan 01, 2009
I'm an Australian whose family name was originaly Luria from Litvak Russia. I want nothing to do with Jewish anti-semite Isaac (maybe a distant relative?) or Aussie anti-semite Don. In the same vein as "J Street", I wonder just what makes Haaretz writers Amira Haas and Daniel Levy tick. How do you develop self hate?
39 | David M, Thursday Jan 01, 2009
J Street only has a handful of members but they have learned that if you condemn Israel you can get featured in the newspapers. If the JStreeters lived in Sderot instead of Georgetown they might have a different attitude although I doubt it.
40 | lily usa, Thursday Jan 01, 2009
I am thankful to read so many intellegent comments unlike those on the aaavz blog from which i have unsubscribed... thank you davdd, jan, reuben, ralph, ronald and all for educating the uninformed and keeping the truth alive.
41 | George, Thursday Jan 01, 2009
#10 Don, not any intelligence in your comments at all. Israel have the right to defend themselves which is exactly what they do and righfully so, To the Israeli troops, great job and I wish you all the best in putting these terrorists in place.
Australians hunted down Aborigines like animals so maybe you should keep quiet, can not even play Rugby or cricket anymore either. Yoiur statements about Cristians is also pathetic, you obviously have no culture
42 | George, Thursday Jan 01, 2009
#10 Don, not any intelligence in your comments at all. Israel have the right to defend themselves which is exactly what they do and righfully so, To the Israeli troops, great job and I wish you all the best in putting these terrorists in place. Also, there are over 50 million Christians in China, more than Australia can say, so now we know why you ran to China, pretty lame Aussie
Australians hunted down Aborigines like animals so maybe you should keep quiet, can not even play Rugby or cricket anymore either. Yoiur statements about Cristians is also pathetic, you obviously have no culture
43 | Amnon, Thursday Jan 01, 2009
J Street would have gladly collaborated with the Nazis in our worst of times. One thing that can be said about the Judenrat is that whatever anyone thinks of them, they really had NO choice. This cannot be said about their moneyman Soros, or the likes of Jeremy Ben Ami, Isaac Luria, MJ Rosenberg and others of that mentality. In fact in many ways they are much worse than overt self-haters like Brian Becker of ANSWER and Medea Benjamin because they try to sugarcoat their hate of Israel by claiming they're for peace.
Remember J Street too, was instrumental in electing Obama.
44 | Amnon, the Great AMERICAN Southwest, Thursday Jan 01, 2009
For George at 2,
Excuse me, but you're about as much an American as Soros or Ahmedinejedad. But tell you what, Georgie, if you do live here, which is very doubtful and since you're for the downtrodded and the oppressed, kindly give up your digs and hand them over to a Native American family since you're occupying their home and oppressing them. Then kindly have the courage of your principles and move to Gaza. I'm sure that'll make a great humanitarian (Fascist) like you extremely happy.
45 | Adam from Boston, Thursday Jan 01, 2009
Jstreet is a PAC sympathetic to palestinians. it should be obvious considering the fact that ALAN SOLOMONT is such a prominent figure in the group
46 | Taiwan Freedom Fighter, Thursday Jan 01, 2009
Don in China,
Please stay there. I think Australia would be better off without you, and since you love the Palestinians so much, stay in a country that supports them - and acts as brutally as they do.
47 | Debbie, Hollywood, Florida, Thursday Jan 01, 2009
China!!! China outlaws religion. I am all for that, being an atheist, and seeing what relligion does! Not only that, but China has taken Tibet and the Uigurs. So c'mon, don't tell me how great China is. I'm with J-Street and Jewish Voice for Peace! This occupation and now the bombings has been horrible; causing only more hatred amongst the Palestinians. Yes, Hamas is wrong in sending rockets into Israel. I hope Obama can effectively bring the parties to the peace table. Hamas needs its Nelson Mandela.
48 | Hofikoman/Cape town, Thursday Jan 01, 2009
To J-street Debbie #47- Wishing for a Mandela where none has been and none will be is pathetic, and that goes for the PLO as well.
49 | Tony, Thursday Jan 01, 2009
Debbie in Florida- What occupation? Israel left Gaza years ago. Arabs have no excuses left, but liberals create new ones constantly
50 | David, Friday Jan 02, 2009
Seculars (including Communism and Nationalism) are bloodier than all the religious people in human history put together! More people have died in the name of Secular ideologies than all the religious ideologies of the human species put together. Seculars are simply worse than religious when it comes to bloodthirst.
51 | not bill clinton, Wednesday Jan 07, 2009
Reply to #2- you just a bona fide piece of s***. I apologize that this tool is an american. #5- The united states was founded on judeo-christain law, not islam law. Too bad leave if you hate christians, maybe
Venezuela or cuba would be more to your liking ole ole ole Chavista
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