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Wednesday Dec 03, 2008
Rosner's Domain: It is not about Hebron, it is about IsraelPosted by SHMUEL ROSNER
Comments: 37      Clashes in Hebron refuse to calm down, and people following the events might have problem remembering why it started and whom they should support. So let's make it short and clear: 1. The settlers have every right to think that the court was wrong to order evacuation from The House. However, a decision has been made. It should be respected. 2. The settlers themselves were the ones going to court, so they can't even complain that it's the usual "court activism" 3. Some Jewish Hebronites now say that they've no control over the thousands of young supporters throwing stones at Arabs and at soldiers and making life hell for everybody in the area. That might be true, but it is still not an honest claim. Had the residents of the house in question agreed to leave quietly and shortly after the court order was issued, nothing of this sort would have happened. 4. Don't get all confused: this is not an article about Jewish presence in Hebron. It is not a debate between the supporters and the opponents of Jewish settlement in the city. This is a battle - not a debate but a real battle - between those caring about Israel and those who do not care. If one wants the State of Israel to survive, one needs to make sure that all people, settlers included (and left wing radicals protesters in Bil'in too), abide by the law. If one believes a house is more important than the state, and is ready to violently act on it, one should be arrested or hospitalized. 5. And remember: the house wasn't even taken from the settlers. They might be able to comeback soon after they leave - and after the courts take another look at the documents they presented as proof that it was legally purchased. Yet again, this is neither about the house nor about Hebron. It's about the state. 6. I know this is election season, and politicians make their complicated calculations as to how to speak and when and about what. But I did not yet hear the leaders of the Likud Party raising their voices against those turning Hebron into the mess that it was today. If Netanyahu has really "changed", he should do that: forcefully, convincingly and unequivocally. Not just saying that beating soldiers isn't right. That's too easy. Not just saying that throwing stones at policemen isn't right. Too easy. He should say that the House - whether one calls it the "house of contention" or "the house of peace" - should be evacuated. He should say that enough is enough. That is - if he has really changed. As I promised: short, but hopefully clear.
1 | i c truly, Wednesday Dec 03, 2008
So far only so called settlers are injured by Arab rock throwers by police stun grenades and tear gas the court only said the state may NOT must remove the Jews this is about whether this is a Jewish state with justice and fair play to people who bought a house in good faith for 700000$ the (American) owner is in there too. As for waiting for another lower court ruling on ownership that can and has in the recent past taken some 20 YEARS to get justice for Jewish owners. Please lets also remember that the state is not holy or above all else (iber alles ?) the state can be terribly wrong
2 | Khalid Amayreh, Hebron, Wednesday Dec 03, 2008
What do the "settlers" want?
The settlers, who consider themselves representing true Orthodox Judaism, readily quote from the Old Testament, especially the Book of Joshua:
They want the Palestinias either banished and expelled to the four winds, physically exterminated, or enslaved by Jews as water carriers or wood hewers. Did anyone watch what Daniella Weis was saying on TV yesterday?
She wanted genocide. pure and simple....and a kosher one!
This is their ultimate goal.
Now will the State of Israel and Jews in general allow the settlers to have their way?
3 | charles, London, Wednesday Dec 03, 2008
Has the state ruled on ownership itself? If not, why the premature eviction?
If injustice is permitted in Hebron for political expediency, why not everywhere in Israel?
This is indeed about Israel's national character and foundations not Hebron's only.
4 | Adina Kutnicki, Wednesday Dec 03, 2008
Rosner, you just don't get it, or at least you pretend you don't. It is NOT about a piece of property, and it is NOT about rule of law, to be obeyed by both the left and the right.It IS about the governmental decision to EMPTY Hebron of Jews, along with most of Judea & Samaria. It IS a struggle about Israel, but NOT in the way you present it . It IS a struggle about Israel's Jewish essence. For IF the leaders can empty Hebron-the cradle of Jewish civilization-then emptying parts of Jerusalem of its Jews should be a piece of cake.
5 | Arlene Kushner, Jerusalem, Wednesday Dec 03, 2008
You have it so wrong it takes my breath away. Your erroneous information causes damage. The court NEVER ordered evacuation from Beit HaShalom -- it merely said that the gov't, at its option could evict if it wished while final decision was being made. But it could also do nothing. "Thousands of young supporters throwing stones?" A handful, maybe. I was at Beit HaShalom today and all was quiet. How about incitement of the Arabs by media and the gov't, and the Jewish 16 yr. old with brain damage because of a rock thrown at his head from a roof by an Arab?
6 | Iche Behr, USA, Wednesday Dec 03, 2008
Jewish Hebron should have its own local police to keep order. The Jewish Police Chief should work together with the Jewish Mayor to keep the peace. The little government being awfully leftist has shown its intention to destroy the Jewish presence in Judea, and forcefully pull Jews out of their homes, and then destroy the homes. The heroic young men, fine peaceful and learned, have the right and duty to defend the Jewish existence in Eretz Yisrael. Leftist police from leftist Tel Aviv, they don't belong in Hebron or Judea.
7 | Avraham - Yerushalayim, Wednesday Dec 03, 2008
Bravo, Shmuel!
When more people on the Right are willing to criticize others on the Right, and when those on the Left are willing to criticize others on the Left, then Israel will be in a much better place.
8 | Cliff Ross Conway,USA, Wednesday Dec 03, 2008
If Israel gives the West bank to Arabs, kiss Israel goodbye.
Israel MUST annex Judea and Samaria. Then clean out all terrorists, including Abbas, WAQF, and PA Authority. Install Israeli police and IDF all over Judea and Samaria to enforce laws equally for all. Make all residents swear allegiance to Israel, or leave.
Unless these things are done, Israel will be a distant memory in the near future.
9 | ben, tel aviv, Thursday Dec 04, 2008
the court did not rule that the house MUST be evacuated. the court ruled that if the state wants it can evict the residents of the house and not be in violation of the law. the state still has the choice. by saying (as you do in your first point) that the court "order[ed] the evacuation" you are either exposing yourself as someone who blogs about things he doesn't understand or as someone who is intentionally trying to mislead his readers. i expect better.
10 | Ronald, Thursday Dec 04, 2008
From my distant vantage point in the US, I have to read about what is going on in Israel in the Israeli press. I am surprised Rosner faults the owners of the house...but I don't know. I can't help notice, though, that Gazans are shelling Sderot virtually every day and I am pretty sure that that is a violation of the law. Yet the courts and government of Israel don't seem to want to do anything about that except wring their hands and gnash their teeth. Of course, two wrongs don't make a right but when I have to make tough decisions in my life, I am going to take the side of family.
11 | Michael Margolies, Thursday Dec 04, 2008
Here I am in NYC a supporter of Israel and wary of the present gov't, but I simply don't know what to believe. Like I say I don't trust the present gov't or the courts, but I don't have enough to go on. I certainly don't trust the word of the Arabs, not because of racial stuff, but because they have proved that they will say whatever they feel will throw negative light on Jews and Israel. They will of course especially blame Israelis, not Jews, to make it look like they are okay. Unfortuantely their plots work, which is why it is especially important for Jews to be both careful and correct
12 | Shalom, Thursday Dec 04, 2008
The most disturbing fact about this situation is that the " settlers" were ordered to evacuate the building before establishing which party ownes the building. If at the end of the day the Court decides that the "settlers" are the legal owners, then the eviction order makes the Court's decison a mockery of the israeli legal process. AN WE SHOULDN'T FORGET THE FACT THAT THE SETTLERS HAS A VIDEO TAPE SUPPORTING THEIR CLAIM ON WHICH THE FORMER OWNER RECOGNIZES THE SALE! The "settlers" should be allowed to stay until the final decision, this way a difficult situation would be avoided.
13 | Shalom, Thursday Dec 04, 2008
The most disturbing fact about this situation is that the " settlers" were ordered to evacuate the building before establishing which party ownes the building. If at the end of the day the Court decides that the "settlers" are the legal owners, then the eviction order makes the Court's decison a mockery of the israeli legal process. AND WE SHOULDN'T FORGET THE FACT THAT THE SETTLERS HAVE A VIDEO TAPE SUPPORTING THEIR CLAIM ON WHICH THE FORMER OWNER RECOGNIZES THE SALE! The "settlers" should be allowed to stay until the final decision, this way a difficult situation would be avoided.
14 | JJ, Thursday Dec 04, 2008
Rosner. Hebron is home to our people founders Abraham Isaac Jacob (Israel), Sarah, Rebecca, Bilhah, Zilpah.
Rosner. In 1929 the local Arab Muslims butchered, bunrt alibe, and dismembered the Jewish community.
Some of the building the Jews owned are being restored to the Jews.
The Peace House was bought fair and square. whats happening is NOT JUSTICE. there is written, audio and video proof of sale. But this is a far left wing government. that doesnt protect its citizens as much as it protects its image in the UN. The UN that has 100 declarations against it every year vs a few against others
15 | Jerusalem Jew, Thursday Dec 04, 2008
Rosner, you keep on stressing that the Hebron Jews are endangering Israeli democracy. I would like to remind you that this government, before it was elected, NEVER spoke about giving Gaza to the pals and making such huge blunders as negotiating with Syria or for Olmert to meet regularely with Samir Kuntar embracer Abu Mazen. Today, the majority of Israelis are AGAINST all the concessions already made by Olmert/Livni and against any future concession already made by Olmert to the US and EU vultures. Democracy means that Olmert has to defend Israeli civilians first, THEN consider world opinion.
16 | Jerusalem Jew, Thursday Dec 04, 2008
Rosner, you keep on stressing that the Hebron Jews are endangering Israeli democracy. I would like to remind you that this government, before it was elected, NEVER spoke about giving Gaza to the pals and making such huge blunders as negotiating with Syria or for Olmert to meet regularely with Samir Kuntar embracer Abu Mazen. Today, the majority of Israelis are AGAINST all the concessions already made by Olmert/Livni and against any future concession already made by Olmert to the US and EU vultures. Democracy means that Olmert has to defend Israeli civilians first, THEN consider world opinion.
17 | Roz-USA, Thursday Dec 04, 2008
Mr. Rosner, you are partially correct, and partly not. If the Pal. former owner is complaining about the timing of Jewish possession of the property, why not create an escrow account that will be either returned to the Jewish community, or awarded to the Pal. if the documents prove they took over too soon. It's improbable that the sale itself will be voided-the Hebronites have spent fortunes of money given by wealthy idealogues to acquire buildings; the govt. IS playing to the leftist audience, and the world, and that's where their intentions will backfire-in that Adina is correct.
18 | Yidith, Jerusalem, Thursday Dec 04, 2008
Ahhh.. yes; the "holy" State!! I prefer to give my allience to the Jewish Nation instead of to a corrupt dictarorial undemocratic un-Jewish and ever-more Jew-hating, Black-shirt Progrom ordering "elite" run Entity which calls its self the State of Israel.
My alliegence is to Hashem and from that to building L'Tzion according to the rules that have been laid out clearly for us thousands of years ago already but which we have never actually implemented nationally .. yet!
Your state will fall because it's not based on anything substancial- no heart, no neshama; just a facsimily of Galut.
19 | Gil,Germany, Thursday Dec 04, 2008
There can only be one law,either you live by the law or you do not.Finish.Laws are not made to be liked,nobody does like every law he lives under,just giving them up ends in Anarchy and Terror,
Jew against Jew here.
20 | Alan, Thursday Dec 04, 2008
Short and clear answer to each paragraph: 1) The court did not order evacuation - Amir Peretz did for political reason, and the court just said it wan't illegal. 2) Exactly. Court activism only happens when it supports left-wing causes. 3) Had the courts bothered to consider the video evidence against the word of a proven liar, all this would not have happened either. If non-violent Hebron Jews are held accountable for violence because they didn't leave, then the government is responsible because they ordered an unnecessary eviction.
21 | Alan, Thursday Dec 04, 2008
4) Disapproval of the Hebron Jewish presence should be irrelevant. But that is clearly what motivated the government ignoring the rights of legal purchasers, and the court's choosing to uphold that outrage. 5) Hebron Jews were already swindled by the government once. At Beit Shalhevet - they made an agreement with the govenment to leave, promised that they would return shortly after. After they left, Mazuz cancelled the deal. 6) Hopefully, Netanyahu is not so myopic as to consider Amir Peretz's whim as a reason to insist that the Jews leave Beit Hashalom.
22 | Alan, Israel, Thursday Dec 04, 2008
Sorry, I forgot my location in my previous comments. My name is Alan, and I'm from Israel.
23 | Israel Susan, Thursday Dec 04, 2008
This is not about the state. Yes, the court ruled that the house could be evacuated. They only stated today that it must be evacuated. There are issues of Jewish law at stake here: according to many opinions, it is forbidden by Jewish law to give up any of Eretz Yisrael. And give me a break - they're never going to let the Jews back into Beit Hashalom once they're removed.
The issue here is about Hebron, and whether the Jews should be there or not. Obviously, the Israeli courts are saying not, and the Jews there are saying "yes. They bought the house, and of course the Arab denies it; he'd
24 | Shmuel, Israel, Thursday Dec 04, 2008
Again - the court did NOT order the building evacuated.
However, it is high time that the rule of law return to Yesha. It has been lacking for too long a time. But we must be even-handed and fair in the application of that law. I live in Yesha, and the inconsistent enforcement of building codes boggles the mind.
25 | Uri DeYoung, Samaria, Thursday Dec 04, 2008
I love how Gil nearly soils himself every time he imagines that the State is losing control of one situation or another. He sees the twin bogeymen of "Anarchy" and "Terror" leering out at him from the midst of every political demonstration or act of civil disobedience. Poor Gil can't imagine life without his Dear Leader whose sole purpose in life is to protect his subjects from their thieving, violent, lustful neighbors. Poor Gil.
26 | Alan Perlman, Har Hevron, Israel, Thursday Dec 04, 2008
FALSE OPENING PREMISE. The courts DID NOT ORDER the evacuation. They permitted it, even though the district court has not yet decided who owns the residence . Therefore: 1)The DEFENSE MINISTER is CHOOSING to evacuate the residents; he is not forced to. 2)The SUPREME COURT is ALLOWING evacuation of residents from a buiding STILL BEING CONTESTED.
Imagine the reverse: Arabs are living in a building that they say they own, but I say I own. Would the courts allow the IDF to evacuate them before determining ownership? Would the IDF evacuate them? NEVER, but then again, Jews are not equal to Arabs.
27 | Meir, Canada, Thursday Dec 04, 2008
So much energy focused on regaining a piece of land. What a shame! To be Jewish is so much more than being at a specific location. The God of Israel is everywhere unlike the gods of old Greece and Assyria, and Egypt who only had power in their home town. Let's focus our energies on more productive things. Let's use our creativity to improve the health and welfare of our fellow Israelis. Let's be kinder to our neighbors. Enough of this extreme preoccupation with Hebron.
28 | izak - ramat gan, Thursday Dec 04, 2008
29 | Gad - Israel, Thursday Dec 04, 2008
Jews in Iran have more civil rights then Jews in Hevron .
Tel Aviv and the Left Wing have tried and hung the
truly great Jews who live in Judea Samaria .
Who gives a rat if Bibi said anything or not .
He's not the poster boy for the left wing , thats ehuds job and
he does a good job at beating back Jews . Maybe he should
try protecting Israelim from Kassams instead.
30 | , Thursday Dec 04, 2008
Your title was right your way off. It's not about a house but about Israel loo
31 | laura America, Friday Dec 05, 2008
Rosner, another anti-Jew, spews Jew hate speech all over the Jerusalem Post, the voice of secular Jews who think stupidly that the arabs who want to kill them will only kill Religious Jews. Guess what? you slumbering secular fools, just like the nazis, Islamic terrorists and their cronies who will murder and maim Jews for $1,200 and kill themselves will kill you, and any other Jew, they don't know whether you keep Shabbes or not, or eat pork or go to shul on Yom Kippur. They just know you arent an arab and therefore, you will be dead. Stupid Jews, you are doing the dirty work of arabs
32 | Sarah, New York, Friday Dec 05, 2008
The vidio clips are horrofying. Why is the government turning on it;s own family. This is about keeping Israel. We are allowed to connect and live in our land peacefully. what is this!
Yes we are jews no matter where we are and isael is ours no matter where we are.we are so connected to our land internally like a mother and child. it can not be severed. Israel was given to the Jewish people by G-d and it can never be taken. People draw life force from the place we live in and being in Israel is a funnel for our sustenece
33 | Racheli, Jerusalem, Friday Dec 05, 2008
Hebron is the saddest place I have ever been. The residents have no respect for their neighbors, the law, or the many, many soldiers and police who protect them and often allow them to act with impunity. As a religious Jew who would love to see a healthy Jewish presence in the holy city of Hebron it kills me to see how the current Jewish residents of Hebron behave. Their disrespect, violence, and total lack of PR have pretty much guaranteed that Jews will not be able to comfortably visit and move about Hebron for some time.
34 | Herbert Kaine, Hebron, Israel, Friday Dec 05, 2008
Israeli democracy has been under threat a long time before the incidents in Hebron. The suspension of Omri Sharon' prosecution for corruption to facilitate the withdrawal from gaza, the manipulation of the Kadima primaries as to ensure a Livni win, the use of Shin Bet provocateurs like Avishai Raviv, are but a few on the long standing threats to Israeli democracy. The actions in Hebron have shown the courts have lost their credibility, which is a dangerous development, but one the courts brought upon themselves
35 | ray, Tel Aviv, Friday Dec 05, 2008
Plainly said.
We're still looking into the proofs you have given us of your claim to the house but since your behaviour and that of those who support you is violent we will evict you.
The eviction appears to be collective punishment for recalcitrance and not a decision based on ownership. I don't like what I know of these people or their behaviour but I understand why they don't move: the courts obviously have no intention of allowing them to return because they are trouble-makers, no matter whose property it is.
36 | Isaac saleh alayoub, Friday Dec 05, 2008
whats saddening is that people cant get food or water in to gaza because of isreali forces. I think that a issue where both isreal and arabs should begin to contribute and start giving i would also wann remind all of you this coming sunday is an islamic holiday its the holiday where we are grateful and donate money for the poor and needy. pleas i urge you peole living across isreal to please help people from gaza to recieve aids from you or he united nations. after all we all believe in one God..
37 | Isaac saleh alayoub, Friday Dec 05, 2008
whats saddening is that people cant get food or water in to gaza because of isreali forces. I think that a issue where both isreal and arabs should begin to contribute and start giving i would also wann remind all of you this coming sunday is an islamic holiday its the holiday where we are grateful and donate money for the poor and needy. pleas i urge you peole living across isreal to please help people from gaza to recieve aids from you or he united nations. after all we all believe in one God..
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