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Monday Jul 13, 2009

Rosner's Domain: Dershowitz vs. Phillips: who's right, who's wrong

Posted by SHMUEL ROSNER
Comments: 80

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When Alan Dershowitz and Melanie Phillips engage in fierce battle, lesser humans like ourselves have to think twice before we enter the fray. However, since this fight doesn't seem to subside, I think it is time for me to offer a measured assessment of winners and losers - or more accurately: the winning and the loosing arguments of both participants. As often happens in such cases, in the heat of battle the two sides seem less inclined to acknowledge the valid point of the opponent than sometimes necessary. That is why I'm here.

But first, a short description of what this war is all about.

It started with Dershowitz writing for the WSJ that "the Obama position on settlement expansion, whether one agrees with it or not, is not at all inconsistent with support for Israel". Phillips responded by saying that "Dershowitz doesn't get it", and argued that "The pressure over the settlements per se is not the reason for the intense concern [among some American Jews]. It is instead, first and foremost, the fact that Obama is treating Israel as if it is the obstacle to peace in the Middle East".

Dershowitz wrote a lengthy blog post defending himself against Phillips' accusations, and she wrote her own blog post, restating her position: he still doesn't get it.

Well, does he? Does she? Let's delve into some (out of many) of the points they were making:

Dershowitz: Phillips, for all her good work in Great Britain on behalf of Israel, has absolutely no understanding of American politics. She would turn Israel into a wedge issue, in which Republicans were seen as the supporters of Israel and Democrats as its enemy.

Phillips: support for Israel is not quite as bipartisan in the US as Dershowitz makes out.

Rosner: he is right in saying that turning Israel into partisan issue isn't healthy for Israel. Shes right in contending that Republicans and Democrats aren't equally supporting Israel (see this example).

Dershowitz: The vast majority of Jews were on the winning side, and that is good for Israel.

Phillips: The idea that because their guy won that must be good for anyone is just bizarre. It means that might is right. It means that whatever Obama does it's good that American Jews helped bring him to power to do it.

Rosner: He might be right to argue that taking part in Obama's coalition give Jewish Americans better access, and more influence, on the administration. Or maybe he's wrong, and Obama will interpret this almost unanimous support as proof that the Jewish vote is in his pocket no matter what he does. And she's right too: The way she reads Dershowitz makes his argument seem bizarre. The only problem with it: this is not what Dershowitz was trying to say, and I suspect she knows it.

Phillips: Here surely is the rub. As I have written on a number of occasions, it seems that for most American Jews liberal issues are so important - or maybe wearing their liberal credentials on their sleeve by voting Democrat is so important - that the security of Israel or indeed the world plays a poor second fiddle.

Dershowitz: We have done quite well, thank you, in maintaining widespread American support for Israel, because we understand the dynamics of the American political system.

Rosner: yes and yes. Dershowitz is talking about the past though, and the future might be different. Phillips is talking about Liberals who do not care about Israel. If she's trying to imply that Dershowitz is one of them - a second look will surely convince her that this innuendo was misplaced.

Phillips: he is a Democrat supporter who is incapable of acknowledging the truth about this President. For most American Jews, the horror of even entertaining the hypothetical possibility that they might ever in a million years have to vote for a Republican is so great they simply cannot see what is staring them in the face -- that this Democratic President is lethal for both Israel and the free world.

Dershowitz: I believed, and continue to believe, that a young, extremely popular African American President who supports Israel, even if he disagrees with its policies regarding settlement expansion, would be far more influential with mainstream Americans and with people throughout the world than an old conservative republican, who also supported Israel.

Rosner: He is a Democrat supporter, which probably makes it harder for him to rush into judging Obama and tag him as "lethal for both Israel and the free world". She clearly isn't a huge Obama fan, and never was, which makes it easier for her to find fault with a President, even when he's "young" and "extremely popular". So - will he be "lethal" or "influential with mainstream Americans"? Both are possible scenarios. Obama, good or bad, had just started.

Had enough of this? Let me add just one more example from this dialogue.

Dershowitz: In a recent statement Vice President Biden strongly suggested that he believes that Israel should have the right to take military action to protect its citizens, if all other options fail.

Rosner: True, but not the whole truth. Biden has spoken, and the next day the President himself had clarified: his administration had "absolutely not" given its blessing for an Israeli attack on Iran.

Phillips: Obama is pressuring Israel to set up a Palestine state - within two years this will exist, swaggers Rahm Emanuel.

Rosner: Here's George W. Bush, from January the 10th, 2008, on the same topic: "It should happen and could happen by the end of the year". Was Bush also the kind of leader that Phillips would call "lethal for both Israel and the free world"?

Bottom line: Too much Obama-enthusiasm on the left, too much Obama-anxiety on the right. Too much heat - and we've only started. Maybe it's all just summertime talk?

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1 | alex Schindler, Jerusalem, Monday Jul 13, 2009

you are the one of the only balanced commentators on israel and related politics in the world. maybe jeffrey goldberg can join you on that pedestal. that's basically it. congratulations.

2 | Mladen Andrijasevic, Beer Sheva, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

Balance, what balance? The crux of the issue here is whether Obama is endangering the existence of Israel with his appeasement of the mullahs. Too much Obama-anxiety on the right? How can Israelis not be concerned when Obama quoted Koran verse 5:32 in his Cairo speech and (deliberately) skipped verse 5:33? Hillary Clinton has no clue that Article 7 of the Hamas Charter "O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!" is from hadith Bukhari (Vol 4, Book 52, No. 177) and quotes Prophet Muhammad. She expects Hamas to change like the IRA. Nobody ever mentions the Mahdi.

3 | Mladen Andrijasevic, Part 2, Beer Sheva, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

In other words, we have an administration which is either clueless about Islam or is deliberately selectively quoting from the Koran, has no idea why Hamas would never change its ideology and worse of all pays no significance to the words of Bernard Lewis who said For people with this mindset, MAD is not a constraint; it is an inducement. The population remains as ignorant as the US government. Almost no one in the US and in Israel has heard of the Mahdi and understands Ahmadinejads eschatological beliefs.

4 | Rosner Reader, Los Angeles, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

Among the many things Phillips misses is that American Jews are not a fifth column, ready to sell out our country, for the (supposed) benefit of Israel. When we pledge allegiance to our flag, we mean it. When Republicans, who normally wrap themselves in that flag, tell us to vote for them "because it's good for Israel," it is insulting, because they are implicitly saying we are disloyal. We voted for Obama to undo the damage done to this country by the Bush Administration, and we are proud of doing so. Any American who puts Israel's interests above America's should follow his heart & emigrate.

5 | Another American Rosner reader, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

Rosner reader is right. Our interests as American Jews should be America first and foremost. Doing whatever whoever tells us is "good for Israel" is insulting and demeaning of our democratic rights and individuality, especially when what is deemed "good for Israel" by the right are measures which are obviously driven by greed and no real desire for peace, or that seems ready to burn everything and everyone (including the Diaspora and the US) for the sake of settlements. It's not that we don't love Israel, but we realize what is best for it, and it is not eternal war, for it, or for the US.

6 | ew baltimore MD, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

Support of Israel is not only the result of Jews of USA efforts . It is idependent policy of the American president : to side with Jews of Israel or against them. To conrasting examples: Jews supported FDR & thier support was important for. Churchil did not need thier support . FDR was an antisemite ,albeit a soft and contsrained one . Churchill was strongly for them though constrained too but in his support. Constrains are what we call "national interests". It easy to define " against or for" but not "natiional interests" which is never clear and only decades after.

7 | ew baltimore MD, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

8 | ew baltimore MD, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

9 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

#4/5 - the two Rosner readers. Has it occured to you that America & Israel have the same interests? And that Obama is not good for America & for sure, not good for Israel? What national interest does Obama serve in weakening allies & appeasing enemies? Do you think Islam is a friend of America, do you think the Muslim world shares the values that made America a great nation? Is allowing nuclear proliferation in America's interest? Is allowing Russia renewed power over Eastern Europe in America's interest? Is supporting a left-wing coup attempt in Honduras in America's interest?

10 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

I wrote this before but it bears repeating. Dershowitz assumes Obama supports Israel. He says ''give him the benefit of the doubt.'' Dershowitz does not go where the evidence leads. He makes his assumption & then marshalls arguements to support his contention. This is the exact opposite of the scientific method. It is intellectually dishonest. All evidence shows that rhetoric aside, Obama does not support Israel. He doesn't even support America. Dershowitz has built a career on being a Liberal (with a capital L) & has a huge personal investment in being a Democrat.

11 | Another American Rosner reader, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

You are incorrect on a number of things, Terry. First and foremost, there is no left wing coup in Honduras, the coup was the work of the right wing which did not like a leftist president. And Israel's interests are not always America's ones. Settlements are easy, but how about the "appeasing enemies" claim? You seem like a man that knows history, so I will spare you the conditions in which the Shah came to power, but we cant forget that those are the reason of Iranian antipathy towards the west (and understandably so). Some enemies are of our own making, and some injustices have to be righted.

12 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

#2/3 Mladen - Obama is DELIBERATELY clueless about Islam. As with many politicians, journalists, & academics, there is a deliberate policy of white-washing, obfuscating, what Islam really is - a totalitarian political ideology. They are in denial because to admit the truth would require some action. They are not able to confront the thought that there exists a hostile & aggressive ideology with a billion followers. This is the mind-set of the 1930's - this is the same mind-set of appeasement that led to the rise of fascism & eventually WWII.

13 | Another American Rosner reader, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

As for the question of "What national interest...", simply put, it is not in America's interest to be at war with the whole world all of the time. It has been tried, and it didn't work. And it didn't work in far more secretive times than these, when information could be easily managed. Today, when the world is greatly interconnected, and everyone knows everything, it will certainly not work again. It is time to try showing respect to the world. It has never been tried before, and who knows, it might work. Democracy is the world running the world, not America running it, certainly not by guns.

14 | Mike Morris. UK, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

Mr Dershowitz. I have admired your defence of Israel for the longest time. But even you must know that Obama is a slick operator. He knows what to say - who to say it to - and how it will come across as a popular president. He rides this most artfully. Axelrod and Emmanuel his closest advisors are Jewish but are ideologically driven. 'Re-set and reach out to the Muslim and Arab world - a new world approach. Show me HOW he has a long standng affinity for Israel or its history. (Reverend Wright - his longttime mentor and guide?) Politics aside, where is 'so supportive of Israel'? Huh?

15 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

#11 Rosner Reader - Have you read the details of what happened in Honduras? There was no right-wing coup. The Supreme Court of Honduras enforced the Constitution & ordered the Army to remove Zelaya because he was attempting to make an illegal referendum allowing him an unconstitutional second term, a la Chavez. He was replaced by someone from the same political party. Even the ballots for the referendum were printed in Venezuela by Chavez, certainly no friend of America. Is it in America's interest to see Latin America dominated by far-left populist dictators friendly to Iran?

16 | psk, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

I don't think many are qualified to say what is in the national interests of the US. Few have access to the facts of history and intelligence briefings, along with the ability to judge the right course (hardly a science). But the destruction of Israel can't be in the USA's best interests because the Muslim world sees Israel as part of the US, and a triumph over Israel would be a triumph over America. Obama has done (and not done) enough to make American Jews wonder if he has a clear view of the history of the conflict or its "causes" (one of them being Nazi propaganda from the 30s.) cont.

17 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

#11 Rosner Reader. I know all about how the Shah came to power. The Shah ran a repressive police state, was a megalomaniac, etc. And do you think that the over-throw of the Shah by Islamic crazies was an improvement? It is 100 times worse both for Iranians & the rest of the world. Do you know how many people were murdered, imprisoned, tortured, or fled into exile by the Islamic devolution? Do you think that the world is a safer place because Dhimmi Carter allowed the Shah to fall? Do you think that allowing Iran to acquire nuclear weapons is a good idea?

18 | Another American Rosner reader, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

Oh? And the army had a right to remove the president from the country? Was a trial conducted? Things are a lot less white and black than you would present them to be Terry, there is however an easy answer to your question: It is in America's interest to see Latin America dominated by rulers friendly to America. The Kissinger days when we said who got ruled how didn't work, and are over. Historically something funny happens when you install friendly regimes by force: They get removed and are followed by UNfriendly regimes by the people that remember what we did. Fitting that you mention Iran!

19 | psk, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

One would like to think that Obama is ready to yield tasty carrots before wielding a stark stick, but there is little evidence for that idea. The settlement issue is one where American Jews have some trouble sympathizing (even if no state but Israel has a legal claim to the land). Does Israel need to build "facts on the ground" to get a decent settlement on land and security? The settlements *seem* to work against Israel. And I suspect they are part of Israeli politics, not signs of greed. Israel must protect itself, whatever Obama says or does, or does not do. Will he wise up? I think so

20 | psk, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

21 | Another American Rosner reader, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

#17 And this is why we can't set regimes by force anymore! Do you think a world where we backed the Shah in doing whatever atrocities he needed to keep power would be better? How do you distort America when you suggest we turn into a symbol of overt dictatorship and oppression! Before the mistake that put the Shah in power, Iran was not our enemy, and there is no need for them to be. Enslaving them forever is not an answer, and not in our interest, or moral, either. What happened there is the reason for Chavez and Cuba as well. Neither the US, nor Israel, can run the world. History says this.

22 | psk\, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

Through ten presidencies US foreign policy towards, say, the USSR was rather consistent. Kennedy was not a wimp during the Cuban crisis; Clinton finally worked up the nerve to intervene in ex-Yugoslavia. Though some pressed Israel hard, Republican presidents have hardly abandoned Israel. Doesn't the antisemitic left claim the war in Iraq was a conspiracy between Israel and Scooter Libby & Co.? A Muslim from Yemen once told CNN that Cheney and Bush were Jewish! Israel & the US should get their act together before they go on stage. Disagree in private, like members of the same team.

23 | psk, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

I said (#19) "to get a decent settlement" but that was an awful choice of words. I mean, "to get a decent agreement". Moving on: the US absolutely must defend Israel or help it defend itself. Any US President would be a raving madman to do otherwise -- for US national security reasons (forget about the Jewish vote). Why is Israel not in NATO? Because the member states don't want to be seen as having a Jew on the team? In Europe, understanding of the ME conflict is close to zero. Killing innocent Spaniards = crime against humanaity; killing innocent Jews = political expression.

24 | pks, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

Obama should tell American Jews/Jewish Americans and Israel something like this: "Our alliance with Israel, although not official, is the permanent policy of the United States. We would not more abandon you that we would abandon the UK. We will support you with *all our might* and all our diplomatic influence. You want peace and we want peace in the ME. The other side has not been allowed by its leaders to really achieve peace. To force them to the table we must seem to push you too, and we are pushing publicly to try to get them to calm down and talk and talk seriously (to be cont.).

25 | psk, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

Israel should say: "Mr. President, your position in public seems naive. You appear not to understand how hatred of Jews was built into the discourse of Islam before Israel existed; how it was fed by Nazi inspired propaganda in the 1930s, how the children are taught to hate us, are taught that killing us is their ticket to heaven. We offered them peace, so many times. They responded with massacres. Even if they had a state, Islamic terrorism would never leave us alone. We proved our willingness; let them prove thiers. Until they do, talk of peace is just that: talk."

26 | daat y, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

Dershowitz is more interested in his leftist credentials than in Israel surviving.THIS BLINDS HIM. Phillips concern is Israel.

27 | GOLDEN NUGGET Australia, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

PHILLIPS's the WINNER ..ABSOLUTELY!! Its not just about "settlements" or "2 States" or "US Politics" or "Israeli Politics" or the like. It IS about the Muslim man HIMSELF who has a record as an ineffectual DUD whose ONLY "talent" is making laughing stock and a fool of himself as well as the US He's an accomplished two timing phoney. HE'sa dishonest artful dodger about his REAL AGENDA for ISRAEL and who has made it as CLEAR as CRYSTAL that he cares not a damn about the SECURITY or SOVREIGNTY of ISRAEL who he would readily sacrifice to the AGENDA of ISLAM which is his HEART and SOUL !!

28 | Christian aid worker, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

PSK, Muslims do't hate Israelis and Zionists because they are Jews, They hate them because they are evil. Jews in Israel routinely murder Palestinian civilians, harass them, steal their land, demolish their homes, poison their waters, burn and cut off their trees. And when the Palestinians cry out for justice, Jews cry "anti-Semitism." In the final analysis, when Jews behave like Nazis, they become Nazis. Well, if Judaism means acting like gangsters and thieves and thugs, then I am proud to be anti-Semite.

29 | Mark Jeffery Koch Cherry Hill, New Jersey, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

Whenever a Jew comes out in favor of a settlement freeze, a two State solution, and supports Obama they are immediately branded a a self hating Jew and an anti-semite. Posts on this site continue with the FALSE allegation that Obama is a Moslem and hates Israel. Those with their heads in the clouds believe the Palestinians will either disappear or move to Jordan and that outposts and settlements can continue and make Israel more secure. A true friend of Israel will speak the truth. A two State solution is in Israel's best security interests. Demographics say peace now before its too late..

30 | Softwalker, Canada, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

#25, you cut right to the chase. What concerned most people I know is that Obama's public speeches betray an appalling ignorance of Jewish history. For someone who's supposedly a quick study, and who has a chief of staff with Irgun ancestry, you have to wonder if Obama just doesn't want to know this stuff. And you also have to wonder whether Dershowitz, who routinely blasts the ignorance of bigwigs, isn't putting Democrat partisanship ahead of straight talk.

31 | Anti-Semite, a Christo Nazi...or Jesus, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

why blame the anti-Semites? I see that most Jewish posters here are clear-cut Islamophobes, haters of Islam and Christianity, people who would want to see the world's 1.6 billion Muslims disappear. Well, then why not the Jews disappear and rid the world of the most virulent racist race and religion under the sun? If it takes anti-Semitism to resist Jewish hate, then be it.

32 | Elen, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

Obama knows Islam better than any American President. After all he grew as Muslim in Indonesia and is Muslim according to Islam based on his father's religion, eve if he declares himself a Christian based on spending 20 years in that bastion of Christianity, Rev Wright Church. So Obama's misinterpretation of Islam is deliberate. Obama also the open enemy on the USA. Read his books. All his life he considered USA to be a bad actor, that were all his appologies come from. So now he is on a way of destroying America as we know it.

33 | Elen, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

The bad thing for American Jews is that it were them who put him in office, from Soros and others who bankrolled his campaign, to Axelrod who managed it, and to 80% of Jews who voted for him in swing States. So American Jews will be blamed for Obama's destruction of the USA, as Russian Jews are still blamed for the "Great October Revolution". So these "patriotic" American Jews who claimed will see how important Israel is for them if by that time Obama with their help and support does not destroy Israel as well. But the USA is the first on Obama's list.

34 | pks, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

Everyone should read comment #28. In brief, our Christian Aid worker tells us: Jews are evil. The steal, destroy, murder, and (get this) poison their water. They are gangsters, thieves, and thugs. They are Nazis. The only answer is to be an anti-Semite. Whew! May we all be saved from Christian Aid. But it's hard to believe that a Christian Aid worker wrote that. Maybe a Syrian intelligence officer? This post tells us what we need to know, in case we haven't been following the history of that last few thousand years: The Jew is the devil. . Who is Israel making peace with?

35 | GOLDEN NUGGET Australia, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

HATE is the life blood of ISLAM and 1.6 billion muslims translate into a hoard of 1.6 billion HATING rabble not just hating Jews but any and everyone who is an INFIDEL. Islam articulates its AGENDA of hate and murder in the name of ITS Alla to Islamise the world and MURDER ALL WHO RESIST. It's called JIHAD !! Of course this odious agenda will NEVER HAPPEN because all those 1.6 billion muslims will SELF DESTRUCT...as is already happening in Iraq, Afganistan, Pakistan, Africa, Labanon, Hamas, Fatah and more and more on the way. That's the MUSLIM WAY and their psyche. They CANT HELP IT !!

36 | Chris, Israel, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

Well, the argument that since Bush, who was a supporter of Israel, wanted a peace agreement within a year, and therefore Obama, who wants an agreement within 2 years, is also a friend of Israel is flawed. Bush wanted to leave some legacy. The fact that Obama repeats Bush's mistakes, it shows that he does not represent such a big "change".

37 | Steven J., Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

Thankyou Rosner for this balanced piece. Israelis must understand Israel's interest is not America's interest. It is in America's interest to have a Palestinian state and stop all settlements. This is mainstream. Bush and Obama has said the same thing. There are 2 billion muslims in the world. There will be much more muslim Americans in America than Jews in America soon if not it has already happened. Some commenters here would not agree with the peace accord with Jordan and Egypt. Yet it has served its purporse. Israel must understand its neighbours are not going away.

38 | marius from germany, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

comment no. 2 is absolutely right. the chosen examples of the discussion between the two are mostly unimportant and quite boring. there is no doubt that obamas cairo speech had horrible passages in it concerning israel, and it looks like obama may really believe he can stop the mullahs by "tough diplomacy". but I dont think so. he'll be told about the mullahs ideology, but the "west" has to use the time thats left to gain more legitimacy for a military strike, to get the russians on board etc. the brave opposition riots in iran were very helpful, i'm more optimistic since then.

39 | Steve Klein, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

I agree with Rosner and Dershowitz on one important point. George W. Bush, for whom I voted in 2000, turned against Israel with a vengeance post 9/11. Consequently I turned against Bush, something Dershowitz has yet to do with Obama. The bottom line for Mr. Dershowits and other left-leaning Jews is this statement: "The major difference between Melanie Phillips and me is that I want Jews to remain Democrats - if they support, as I do, liberal principles such as a women's right to choose abortion, the rights of gays and lesbians to equal justice, and other progressive policies." 'Nough said.

40 | American, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

You can't put 1.6 billion Muslims all together anymore than you can put all Jews together in one lump. Americans are better off looking more carefully into their beliefs and politics so they avoid expensive mistakes that come from whitewashing over complex issues. When it is "you are with us or against us" mentality it leads to big mistakes. Your pledge should be with one country to make it a better place. You can't be a citizen of two. A good citizen looks around and says how can I make it better. If the focus is prevention of all critical debate a country flounders.

41 | Observer, Finland, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

What explains the comments by the "Rosners" is fear. Fear of the rising anti-Semitism in the US. The US Jewry does not feel safe anymore. The US Jews are not free anymore; they are sceptical about their own future. That is the reason they attack Israel - they want acceptance from the ever-growing numbers of anti-Semites in the American society. Attacking Israel helps, they think. That is why they chose Barack Obama and the Democrats who have a legacy in anti-Israelism. The American Jews want to be with the winners, even if they be anti-Semitic. In contrast, the Russian Jews are now free.

42 | Observer, Finland, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

43 | Joseph Baltimore, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

I don't see a contradiction between being a loyal American and being pro-Israel. America should be sympathetic to fellow democracies and not supportive of groups like Hamas or Hezbollah that seek to destroy Western liberal values. What worries me is Dershowitz's attempt to link us to totally unJewish values like abortion on demand and same sex marriage. For Jews and Christians Israel is the Holy Land, not the 'everything goes' land!

44 | Mark Jeffery Koch Cherry Hill, New Jersey USA, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

I cannot believe what I just read from comment #39 "George Bush turned against Israel with a vengeance post 9/11." This poster must be on some very powerful drugs because I do not believe there is an Israeli leader on the far left or far right who does not believe that George Bush was one of the best friends Israel ever had. The person who posted this insane comment should read recent opinion polls among the Israeli people. By an overwhelming majority the people of Israel also believe George Bush was a great friend of Israel.

45 | Hofikoman, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

The fundamental strategic cleavage between Sunni and Shia persists, and it does not look like Hamas and Fatah will reconcile. The recent events in Iran and Lebanon represent a shift of power and influence towards the Sunni. A deal between Sunni Islam and Israel is doable but such a deal will not include real respect for Jewry as an Umma equal to the Sunni Umma. But Israel's continuing presence under a long term truce can certainly be guaranteed politically for many decades.To know what Islam can and will do, one only has to see what it has done in the past.Reducing Islam to Jihad is too crude.

46 | Hofikoman, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

Because Israel is about Jewry being respected it is hard to see how Israel today will actually come around to accept the Obama mediated long term truce with Sunni Islam. But it is not to be completely ruled out. I fully understand the antipathy that Terry from Eilat harbors towards Islam. But Israel all by herself (and certainly without the support of a superpower) can not force the Arabs/Muslims into unconditional surrender. The desire for Israel to show that it should be respected because it can go it alone needs to be resisted because Israel is simply not THAT strong. Make diplomacy succeed

47 | bannister , USA, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

Jews Self divided and conquered by others

48 | Another American Rosner reader, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

Incorrect, Observer. I am not afraid. And in fact, I would say that it is those that dehumanize all muslims and take over their land for civilian settlements with excuses such as "strategic dept" are those that are scared. Having been in both the US and Israel I can say that the US is much more free. For an example just look at the recent stories about the Haredim. Israel is resembling more and more a theocracy and the mainstream voice makes less and less sense. Lieberman? Now there is fear. Antisemitism has been made to mean "disagreeing with Israel" but by that measure most of the world is!

49 | Don Rosenberg Palatine, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

#31 is a moron and peanut brain. You Christians and mooselims are the most racist groups in the world and history proves this, until you try to rewrite it. Obamass should be impeached and carried out of the White House. This communist is trying to change the USA into a fascist ,communist state in order to give to the deadbeats of this country and we know who they are. IMPEACH THE CLOWN NOW !!!!!

50 | Nechama USA, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

Of course American Jews are not a 5th column, but I have never seen my strong support for Israel in conflict with my strong loyal support for US. Israel is the most reliable ally the US has in middle east. The relationship has always been for the mutual good of both countries. But obama is jeapardizing that relationship to the detriment of both countries. A weak Israel will not benefit US & vise versa. Israel's enmies are the US's enemies. Israel & US are Judeo-Christian western democracies at war with islamo-facists, and obama just doesn't get it.

51 | Douglas Miller, Detroit, Michigan, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

In this dispute Phillips is clearly right and Dershowitz is clearly wrong. Dershowitz is right most of the time. But like a lot of American Jews he is more concerned with Obama succeeding than with Israel surviving. When all is said and done, Dershowitz is, first and foremost, an attorney.

52 | joe smith, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

Obama can do anything he wants and American liberals will think he is cool because he is black and thats all

53 | Ron - Tel Aviv, Tuesday Jul 14, 2009

..."will spare you the conditions in which the Shah came to power, but we cant forget that those are the reason of Iranian antipathy towards the west" That is frightening that Americans out there actually believe the lies & excuses that flow from the Iranian regime & its apologists. Yes all this 'death to America stuff has NOTHING to do with Islamic extremism & an Islamic theocracy which despises everything about America, it is because of the shah & American actions in the 1950s. What a riot.. Obama appeasing, blaming America and his Jewish supporters cheer him on. Scary.

54 | Another American Rosner reader, Wednesday Jul 15, 2009

Yes Ron, lets conveniently ignore that before American and British meddling Iran was a parliamentary democracy, and that "we" installed a bloodthirsty and repressive sociopath in place of it because he promised to sell us cheaper oil. Let us also forget that the reason this theocracy exists in the first place is because of these facts and the revolution that ensued to get rid of our appointed tyrant. Why yes, if we ignore all that, then your argument that they hate America for no reason actually makes sense! "They hate us for being free"!. Except it is not so. Time to face reality, Ron.

55 | Rosner Reader, Los Angeles, Wednesday Jul 15, 2009

To #50. There are unfortunate constraints in a 600-character essay. I did not mean to imply American Jews were a 5th column. Only that we are treated like one, when Republicans ask us to ignore all of our concerns for America, because voting for Republicans "is good for Israel." What adds gall to the situation is that Israel, which we also love, is pursuing so many misbegotten policies that we could not support in any circumstance. Today charges were dropped against a settler who was filmed shooting two Palestinians in cold blood. Wouldn't any right-thinking person be ashamed of such things?

56 | Dov, Israel, Wednesday Jul 15, 2009

American Jews are, by now, a political and historical irrelevance. I say this with great sadness. They were, historically, too eager to respond to the pressures of assimilation and too slow to respond to the pressures of monumental historical changes, such as the establishment of the state of Israel and the embracing of reverse racism by American Democrats. They will vanish from the scene in a matter of several generations. Why are these folks so pathetically grateful to be allowed to call themselves Americans?

57 | Mike Feldman, Canada, Wednesday Jul 15, 2009

Another American You are a skilled debater. But at the core of your arguement is your assertion that because the Shah was installed during the Eisenhower administration and has been out of power for 30 years, the U.S. is at a current disadvantage in dealing with Iran. That is very Chamberlain=Oberama like. Apologize to the bad guys and hope they'll like you. And hope that your allies will understand the game you are playing for the "greater good' This attitude reminds me of the parable that starts with "First they came for the Jews" and ends with änd finally they came for me".

58 | Mike Feldman, Canada, Wednesday Jul 15, 2009

Christian Aid Worker. It doesn't matter what the subject is, or what day it is your postings are always exactly the same. You must of figured out a way to cut and paste your previous posts. Quite ingenious.

59 | Mike Feldman, Canada, Wednesday Jul 15, 2009

60 | Mike Feldman, Canada, Wednesday Jul 15, 2009

#31 Anti-Semite. etc. If you had actually read the posts you would see that the particpants were not even discussing Muslims and Christians. However, you felt a compelling need to express your anti-semitism and felt you needed a reason to do so. You don't need a reason. Reason is beyond your capability. My dog doesn't need a reason to lick his balls-he just knows it feels good. Give it a try.

61 | Ronald USA, Wednesday Jul 15, 2009

I think it is obvious that liberal Democrats in the US are less supportive of Israel than Republicans, Evangelical Christians, and Jews who are non-Reform. The polls say that loud and clear. Obama is a liberal Democrat so it is not surprising in the least that he is talking and acting in ways that make Israelis less secure. Jews in Israel have picked up on this rather quickly, dropping Obama's popularity like a stone. I continue to believe that Jews in the US are especially delusional. They repeatedly vote for candidates that do not have their interests at heart.

62 | APRPEH - USA, Wednesday Jul 15, 2009

Phillips is right. Rosner makes a few points though worth mentioning. Rosner is right as is Dershowitz in not wanting to turn Israel into a political issue. the problem is, for the American left, it is an issue of "fairness and political correctness for arabs" and to the American right one of democracy, religion, security, and common values. I prefer the values of the right in favor of those of the left. The American right wants Israel strong because of common values and the left, because Israel is a response to the Holocaust. http://aprpeh.blogspot.com/2009/07/phillips-vs-dershowitz.html

63 | Chris USA, Wednesday Jul 15, 2009

Point 4: actions speak louder than words. Democratic opinion of the "peoples" can sometimes be questionable. Often this rehtoric turns into Arab lowest common denominator politics. Poin6t 5: having a vested interest in any debate tends to bias the outcome in favor of the interest. Obama has entered the issue prematurely, without sufficient research or even staff to adequately research it. (see George Mitchell's Pointless Trip under Leslie gelb Daily Beast). Now he is caught like a rabbit in the crosshairs looking for a way out of this dilemma.

64 | Alan Huntington Beach, CA, Wednesday Jul 15, 2009

Although Dershowitz is a beloved defender of Israel, he screwed up this time. Sorry A.D. that you didn't get elected to the Supreme Court - for all your Obama loyalties, you deserved the prize. However, to keep with your character, it's time to take off the kid gloves on Obama, just as you would on any other politician you support - and take the Prez to task when he does the wrong thing. Your credibility is at stake. A suggestion for maintaining your perspective on Israeli issues (since you don't live there) is to read Caroline Glick's wonderfully informative and insightful articles.

65 | GOLDEN NUGGET, Wednesday Jul 15, 2009

#47 BANNISTER....Hear this:- JEWS SELF ASSURED WILL NEVER BE CONQUERED....Get It ....Pimpfor Islam ??...Now you can crawl back under your slimy rock and join your fellow pimps for Islam...

66 | Chaim - Israel, Wednesday Jul 15, 2009

Despite his brilliance, Dershowitz has a huge blind spot regarding the Democrats in general and Obama in particular. Dershowitz is defiinitely on the wrong side of the debate with Melanie Phillips. Before the U.S. election, Dershowitz championed Obama as a "Christian Zionist" who would increase liberals' support for Israel. Dershowitz was completely wrong in this assessment. Obama is actually the most hostile U.S. president Israel has ever faced. Even Jimmy Carter was not so anti-Israel while he was president. It's time U.S. Jews ended their abusive relationship with Democrats and Obama.

67 | Joe, Singapore, Wednesday Jul 15, 2009

I think Dershowitz, Phillips and Rosner are very brilliant and are able to make argumentative cases. They have both pro and con points. It's like the equally brilliant lawyers arguing against each other in front o fthe court. It's no win-win situation for all of us; however, I must say honestly that Obama is extremely skilled manipulator and knows exactly what to say to the right audience when he needs support. See, he got to you. He is apparently anti Israel in private, so his former Pastor was known to be anti semitic obviously. Nowadays Jimmy Carter has portrayed Israel as a bad country and even met personally with Hamas leaders. He is more of anti semitic. Christian world fortunately is disagreeing with him strongly and remains staunch ally of Israel. Seems like Rosner made several balanced points. I like Terry- Eilat, Israel's points. He understands history very well. It is not easy to be objective on sensitive matters. That is why we often have blind spot on our side.

68 | Mike USA, Wednesday Jul 15, 2009

I am sick of America being tied down with israel and other jewish problems in general. Jews need to go live in israel and run it how they see fit, otherwise they need to shut up about it altogether. Even the ignorant fools can see America is being used as a crutch for jews to do dirty work that they thenselves are too cowardly to do.

69 | Isa Ten, Wednesday Jul 15, 2009

Both Rosner Readers prove that for the leftist Jews their ideology is paramount. Everything else, fate of Jews, Israel, simply facts, do not matter. They twist the facts to accommodate their ideology. What will Dershowitz/both Rosver Readers say when Obama/Clinton vote in the UN Security Council to condemn Israel for some action that Israel takes in self-defence? It'll be late then. The whole world will sanction Israel to the great detriment for all Jews, in Israel, US of A, and everywhere.

70 | Al - US, Wednesday Jul 15, 2009

the dichotomy: US interests vs. Israel's is very shortsighted. If Israel goes down (either through direct edstruction or indirect one - Arabization), all the little scum will go after US like a giant swarm of bloodsucking mosquitos, slowly terrorizing and bleeding it into weakness and submission through violent and economic means. For the civilization to survive we have to stick together and watch after each other.

71 | Norman Gardner, Thursday Jul 16, 2009

I agree primarily with Phillips. Most Americans including Jews who voted for Obama feel compelled to defend Obama policy because they are responsible for electing him, even though many are starting to have concerns about his policies. I personally think he is very naiive and has undertaken too many projects. He can`t even make a speach without notes or a teleprompter. In order to have a peace agreement in the ME, Israel needs to have a partner and with Fatah and Hamas fighting each other there is no partner. Obama needs to resove this inter Arab war first.

72 | Shalom Freedman, Thursday Jul 16, 2009

I think that the major point is being missed in this discussion. And here I would tend to side slightly more with Phillips than with Dershowitz. The whole thrust of Obama's policy is to contract Israel's power , to diminish it in size, to limit its range of action. At the same time his policy is to build the Palestinians not only economically but militarily. It is too if one looks at it closely to diminish Jewish power ( Invite JStreet and PeaceNow but not ZOA to the little soothe- the- Jewish- nerves session) while increasing Muslim power. Worrisome, to the extreme.

73 | Jeremy from Stockton, Thursday Jul 16, 2009

Obama's "popularity" in the USA is sinking fast. It's about 50% now.. The man is a disaster for America, and the population is throwing off its media induced trance state and realizing his policies are weak and destructive.The fact that he has a few disfigured, cunning, ultra-leftist Jewish advisers is insignificant. Take note that Morton Klein of the ZOA wasn't invited to the White House, but Soros-funded J-Street was. Why? Because Morton Klein doesn't play the "court Jew." Frankly, I'm surprised by Dershowitz's conclusions. He's usually more realistic.