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Monday Nov 09, 2009
Rosner's Domain: Are they not "anti-Israel" or are they "pro-Israel"?Posted by SHMUEL ROSNER
Comments: 34      Follow
Rosner's Domain on Twitter! / Join me on Facebook! Notes and updates: 1. Gideon Lichfield, in his generally sensible article about J Street, repeats the nonsensical claim "J Street won endorsements from Kadima's leader, Tzipi Livni". No - it didn't. It got a nice, polite, letter. No less, no more. And here's one more from Lichfield: To call J Street "anti-Israel" is simply absurd. But a harder charge to shake off is that it doesn't represent the Jewish mainstream. The lobby's oft-repeated claim that it speaks for the silent majority, because most Jews in both America and Israel support a two-state solution, is slightly disingenuous. The difficulty is not with the solution, but how to get there. The split between Fatah in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza, though it can be blamed as much on U.S. and Israeli meddling as on Palestinian infighting, has left the Palestinians without leaders who can do a deal on their behalf, much less carry it through. AIPAC doesn't oppose a two-state deal; it just doesn't trust the Palestinians to implement one. A lot of Israelis would agree.I think Lichfield makes a good point. Alas, the begginign of the paragraph is not exactly careful. To call J Street "anti-Israel" is "absurd", he says. Let's assume we all agree on that (I know we don't all agree on that - but let's do it for the sake of argument). Was this really the question - can we call J Street "anti-Israel"? I thought the question was different: can J Street call itself "pro-Israel". Think about it for a second and you'll realize that these questions aren't identical, they are quite different. And Lichfield - more sympathetic than critical when it comes to J Street - had chosen to answer the question that is more comfortable for J Street supporters. 2. In my op-ed in Maariv (Hebrew - here) I predict that Obama's video speech at the Rabin memorial will not help him much with Israel's public opinion. I think it wasn't the right venue. 3. It is an interesting feature by Gallup: "The Potential Net Migration Index is the estimated number of adults who would like to move permanently out of a country subtracted from the estimated number who would like to move into it, as a proportion of the total adult population. The results are based on nationally representative surveys of more than 260,000 adults worldwide. The higher the resulting positive PNMI value, the larger the potential net adult population gain". Israel: 0%. Not great (the US is at 60%) but better than most. 4. NYT reports: Then, witnesses say, he bowed his head for several seconds, as if praying, stood up and drew a high-powered pistol. "Allahu akbar," he said - "God is great." And he opened fire. Within minutes he had killed 13 people.So maybe it's time to end the all-too-predictable debate about motives and admit the possibility - just the possibility - that Senator Lieberman was right when he had said: "If that is true, then this was a terrorist act". This is not being "anti-Islam" - it is being honest about possible reasons for the deadly attack. 5. And more from the department of political correctness: It's entirely possible that other factors may have acted as a trigger for Hasan's alleged killing spree. The army major was a devout Muslim who reportedly had been harassed because of his religion and had developed strong objections to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.In short - Time Magazine had solved the Mystery: He was harassed, he was traumatized, he was about to be sent to an unjust war. He had good reasons, and barely any fault. 6. "If Abbas quits, are peace talks doomed" - asks the Atlantic Wire. And what if he doesn't - are they not doomed?
1 | Martin Oslo, Monday Nov 09, 2009
So: All muslim killings are terrorists, the peace-talks are doomed, JStreet is an enemy and Israel is never wrong in any way. Good one-eyed bigoted summing up. Its fascinating to see the JPost morph into a anti-arab propaganda channel.
2 | Sally - U.S.A., Monday Nov 09, 2009
tnr.com under Marty Peretz's spine, Barry Rubin had an insightful piece on the Ft. Hood shooter. As to Abbas, Obami (Jennifer Rubin's term for Obama), etc., I think it is kind of a con game that they are playing in order to force Israel to their position. I mean think about it for a minute. If Abbas dismantles the PA, what is the purpose of an election - the person elected president won't have a body to preside over. Just as in the WSJ, Obami agreed to talk to Netanyahu with "conditions." If Obami doesn't have Israel on board for his plan, he won't have a peace agreement. As for Friedman,
3 | Sally - U.S.A., Monday Nov 09, 2009
(con't) he has had this same "if you don't do things my way, then take the highway" attitude for years. (He sure gets a lot of money & miliage out of it.) Obama's plan is to have 100% (not 90%, not 95%) of the west bank (including Jerusalem) & Gaza as a separate Arab state with a fast moving train right up the middle of Israel joining the two areas by 2011. If he has to harm Israel to get his way, he doesn't care. That is why the Obami's, Abbas's, Friedman's threats are a farce. If they carried out their threats, they are the ones who would be hurt.
4 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Monday Nov 09, 2009
#2/3 Sally. The main ingrediant in this stew is Israeli leadership - how far will Netanyahu go to placate American demands? Along side this is the main event - Iran. It looks like Obama & the international community of wimps, cowards, & appeasers are somehow reconciled to ''learning to live with a nuclear Iran'' & the big question is will Netanyahu pull the trigger & attack Iran. Obama's entire foreign policy but particularly, his Middle-East policy, is a total failure & that failure is beginning to creep even into the mainstream media.
5 | Mike Feldman, Canada, Monday Nov 09, 2009
To Sallys points and then particularly to Terrys conclusion. I think Obama's influence in the Middle East requires that he retain popularity,persuasiveness, apparent authority and the appearance of being a leader who gets things done. Bill Clinton was viewed as desperate to get a peace agreement to salvage his legacy,before he left office. I think Obama could be in that position by the end of next year. If that's the case, I think he'll be politely ignored or deferred.
6 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Monday Nov 09, 2009
#3 Sally. By the way, more so than any other part of the world, Middle-East politics is a function not of national interest but of the personal interests & ambitions of the political players. Abbas fears the Americans will dump him for Fayyad, Fayyad has no political base & could be ousted in a NY minute. He's only around as a front to collect aid money from Western suckers. Abbas is bluffing anyway, it's all BS & he won't be holding any elections either without Gaza. Abbas & his crooked cronies have lost popular support - he is only trying to remain relevent (desparately) but he's irrelevent
7 | Moische of Chelm, Monday Nov 09, 2009
The part which I fail to understand is why, if a police officer had to shoot Hasan to stop him are the taxpayers wasting money on providing medical care to him. He deserves the death penalty, it would have been much more cost effective to let him die from the wounds. Forget his religion, the guy is a vile animal and should be put down like one. Use the hospital resources on someone who is worth keeping alive.
8 | Sally - U.S.A., Monday Nov 09, 2009
Terry, I believe added to this mix is the Goldstone report. Just as Carter abstained in 1979 in the UN security council vote, so too Obama could abstain. I believe it is highly unlikely, but the threat has been said by Britain & France. With that said, I think that Obama is trying to coerce Israel to his position with the threat of no "moderate" PA, one state with Arabs overtaking the population, etc. Israel's main challenge is the propaganda war which is painting it as a villian. Netanyahu is wise going around Obama to talk to Congress, but more needs to be done to devillianize Israel.
9 | davidd, Teaneck, NJ USA, Monday Nov 09, 2009
For #1 - Martin "Oslo".
Moslems who shout Allahu Akbar as they open fire can safely be considered terrorists.
Rosner's comment is that JStreet are not pro-Israel, not that they're "enemies".
He never said Israel is never wrong, but that negotiations now are futile.
The bigot is the one who refuses to read the words and ascribes thoughts to others out of his own bias.
10 | Gideon Lichfield, Monday Nov 09, 2009
Interesting point, Shmuel. Depends of course on what you mean by "pro-Israel". Maybe you could write a post on that? I'd be happy to have an exchange on the subject.
11 | Terry - Eilat, Israel, Monday Nov 09, 2009
#8 Sally. I have to admit that I am very unclear about Netanyahu's strategy - it's open to a lot of interpretation, he's a wily, experienced politician but also quite ambitious & concerned about not having another failed term as PM. Israeli politics pulls our PM's to the left & the question is how far left is Netanyahu willing to go. We can do very little about being villified except pursue our national interests regardless of criticism. Obama can cause us trouble but he is a sinking ship soon to be a lame duck - we can afford not to allow him to bully us & wait him out.
12 | Sonny USA, Monday Nov 09, 2009
Maj. Hasans actions were predicated on religious believe. His believes were known by many in the military and he should have been called on them. I base this on the planning stage, the purchase of a gun and the length of time between what he said to others and when he carried out his massacre. If this were any other officer in the US Army he would have been removed and given a discharge. What he expressed and how he felt about it obviously caused the death of 13 people and wounding of 30 others. It was an act of terrorism based on his beliefs.
13 | eliyho matz matzozky jr, Monday Nov 09, 2009
some very close sources to j street gang have told me that for the sake of zionism and support of the current israeli progressive regim they are planning to build a settlement near jerico the settlement will incorperate all the componenents of old and new ideologies of the jewish people .
14 | Sonny USA, Monday Nov 09, 2009
Abbas is using the threat of dismantling the PA to get concessions out of Israel. Abbas should dismantle the PA then Hamas will try to take over the WB, this will require Israeli intervention and Samaria and Judea will be part of greater Israel. But the real threat to Israel is the Islamic President of the US. He is the biggest threat to any solution that does not have the Arabs getting E Jerusalem. I ask all Israelis to think about US NGO substitution for the aid that the US government gives Israel. BHO will use this against Israel. As for a lasting peace, who you are dealing with?
15 | Sonny USA, Monday Nov 09, 2009
Maj. Hasans actions were predicated on religious believe. His believes were known by many in the military and he should have been called on them. I base this on the planning stage, the purchase of a gun and the length of time between what he said to others and when he carried out his massacre. If this were any other officer in the US Army he would have been removed and given a discharge. What he expressed and how he felt about it obviously caused the death of 13 people and wounding of 30 others. It was an act of terrorism based on his beliefs.
16 | Yacov Yosivovitch NYc :The Great "AL TAQIYAH" PowWow of2009, Monday Nov 09, 2009
In Todays News; From the O.I.C. at Istanbul; SYSRIA Prez Assad responds [to the "Goldstone-report" as "one of the WORST WAR CRIMES EVER-KNOWN IN MODERN TIMES" & so referring to Israel's three-week STPO-Gaza-From Shooting More Missles" as (reasons?) for the ARAB & iSLAMIC-WORLD TO BE MORE SELF-SUFFICIENT" Note: This a great "FREUDIAN SLIP" by them Lovers of "ELDERS OF 'AL TAQIYAH" (Izlamic-Zionizm War Efferts) because out of Jealousy for the israeli/SABRA(s) TECHNi-ADVANTAGE that Judeo-abe-ISLAMics,are uniting their Military-Industrial-Complex? to INVADE-iSRAEL1948 Style again; but w/ownTech??
17 | Yacov Yosifovitch :Thanks to PAKi's SAUDI hasa"Sunni-A-BOMB", Monday Nov 09, 2009
continued.. The godly-JEALOUS & blind Ex-Idol BAAL/MECCAN Worshipers whom hijacked the JUDEO-abe SYSTEM, mass Murdering many for it, calling it JUDEO-abe-ISLAM Do-Not-Want-Peace! Only NOISE&ATTENTION thus stimulate their Naive 'restless' young image; Soo my dearfellow SABRAiTES & Friendly's L-O-U-D-L-Y sing, "NO-THANKS; TO-PEACE right Now, It can Wait!" Note: in a way; it might seem to JERUSALEMS advantage to faign wanting Peace; Atleast it's a way to Keep Ones ENEMies Close (closer than a friend to say). But know that the "AL TAQIYAH" Lovers of Satanic-Versus, Led by SULTAN TURKS to Attack!?
18 | Yudi F usa, Monday Nov 09, 2009
Tom Freidman of the NY Times says the USA should get out of the "peace process" Israel and Palestinians...I agree. We (USA) couldnt bring peace to that dispute and is the same as trying to tame a Crocodile! First we in our Govt has no clue of the mentality of Jihad! Even though we are fighting these same rat Al Qeada and Taliban in Iraq , Pakistan , and Afghanistan. I say GET OUT! Fight them in a new military way. This is not tanks or infantry..Our guys are out there in a "shooting gallery"! Joe Biden has a idea ..drones and special forces! We got huge problems right here in the USA!
19 | Yudi F usa, Monday Nov 09, 2009
Tom Freidman did mention some people who are certainly ANTI ISRAELIS..Jim Baker, Jimmy Carter, I wouldn't trust them for anything thats Jewish! I hope Freidman is NOT praising them. As for Hassan, this tells us the whole story of Islam's objective of world ...yes world control. You can be sure that Hassan (he should be in pain for ever) will be hailed as a hero of Islam in every mosque even here in the USA. Yes, I know that many muslims are not terrorists..but not enough speak out..there are a few brave ones..I hope they are "packing"!
20 | yudel F usa, Monday Nov 09, 2009
As for J street..They want peace yes...and Im sure they are not Anti Israel...but do they really understand the murderous sick mind of Jihad. Its enough to know that more Muslims are killing each other today than anybody else. That's the crocodile mentality Israel and the USA is dealing with. And is not Iran threat to all Arab Sunni nations...we shoudl let them fight it out and just hold their coats. My favorite war of all time Iran vs Iraq! And we should have let Russia have Afganistan! Let them have that headache. Get out now! Save wonderful US guys and gals!
21 | David USA, Monday Nov 09, 2009
During WW II Japanese US soldiers were not sent against Japan, but against Italy - for good reasons. When Hasan joined the army, the US was not at war with Muslim states. When that happened he tried to get out of it in the worst way but was not allowed.Now he was to join the fight against Afghan Muslims. A religious dilemma - he flipped. One wonders what religious Jewish soldiers would do if required to fight Israelis. One of them might flip, too. Someone sure "flips" in Israel every once in a while. All of this is not to be taken as an excuse.
22 | Yacov Yosifovitch :in 40Years JORDAN willbe 55%PALi-Infested, Monday Nov 09, 2009
With the SABRA'S Intelligence & w/Godly Patience onlyFor 40 More Years; that JORDONians FEAR the inevitable DEMOGRAPHIC take-Over-by-Population by wild CAANAINiTES (Known by Pharoahs as "LOw Lifes from the Low Lands" now called PALiS. Today, in hidden FEAR Mr. Abdullah-2 Freudiantly-Slipped &said, "[E.] Jerusalem is considered a red line & Israel needs to understand this ¬ play with fire.. a continuation of the status quo? in the region would constitute sliding off into the {abyss?, and said [HE FEARED?] for the state of the Palestinians and the entire region if there was no progress soon"?
23 | Amnon, Monday Nov 09, 2009
it is not "absurd" to call the Soros blood money funded Kapos of J Street "Anti-Israel". You're wrong again, Rosner and so is this Lichfeld character. They are Obama's "court Jews" and will always be so even if and when Iran drops the bomb on Tel-Aviv.
If you have a problem with that, tough. To this date none of them have ever expressed any dissenting views on Obama policy or on getting tough, not with Israel but with the Palestinians.
I said this before and I'll say it now. Even Jews for Jesus are better Jews and supporters of Israel than the scum of J Street. Better Madoff than Soros.
24 | YM, New Jersey, Tuesday Nov 10, 2009
There is a big difference between Israel not wanting peace and not being willing to pay any price to have a peace treaty. When Israel sent Shimon Peres, Yossie Bellin and Yossie Sarid to negotiate on its behalf in Taba in 2001 and they couldn't get a deal, I knew that there is no deal to be had at a price that Israel would be willing to pay. The rejection of Ehud Olmert's offer last year is more proof. Why should Israel freeze settlements when its best offer is going to be refused without comment?
25 | Stuart Creque, USA, Tuesday Nov 10, 2009
Sure, J Street is pro-Israel -- just not the actual Israel that exists. They're in favor of a fantasy version of Israel that is so inoffensive that no one hates it, or hates American Jews because of it. I think they are in denial about the cause of anti-semitism in America: it's not rooted in what Israel does or does not do, it's rooted in an ancient and irrational hatred of Jews and Judaism. Just because the American Left claims its anti-semitism is really anti-Zionism doesn't mean they're telling the truth.
26 | Stuart Creque, USA, Tuesday Nov 10, 2009
The problem in dealing with the Palestinians is that the West wants to deal with personalities and not with the Palestinians as a people. Peres begging Abbas not to quit is a manifestation of this problem. No Palestinian leader is powerful enough to sell a deal to his people after the fact, so agreements made with leaders will never be carried out. The only way to change this is for the Palestinians to create a means of choosing their own leaders who will reflect their collective will... but the problem is that they may choose Hamas (meaning they don't want peace in the first place).
27 | Stuart Creque, USA, Tuesday Nov 10, 2009
I have never understood why the government of Israel hasn't insisted over the past 8 years that all foreign NGOs, lobbying groups and news agencies have their Israeli headquarters in Sderot. I imagine that if J Street's Israeli office had been there, their views might have evolved.
28 | Amnon, the Great AMERICAN Southwest, Tuesday Nov 10, 2009
If the U.S. Military is content promoting a-hole Generals like Casey, Wes Clark, and Jimmy Jones who prefer bending over and kissing Muslim butt instead of being for America even if it cost them their careers like Billy Mitchell, then God help us all.
In the age of Obama, we need men with guts and brains like Billy Mitchell, not a-holes like Gates and Jones who will promote guys like this Palestinian Qaedist even if it means the death of U.S. soldiers. And men who will make sure Muslims are purged from the ranks, even if it upsets Bonzo.
29 | Tom USA, Tuesday Nov 10, 2009
Apolitical correct Military influenced by Political correct politicians and you get a cluster of despair and a lot of dead troopers. Some one within the Government has a international agenda and brings foreigners into the government rather than hire Americans. What the hell is a Muslin doing in our military anyway? The people who created this policy should be tried for Murder,
30 | Chris USA, Tuesday Nov 10, 2009
Despite what Senator Lieberman says, terrorist activities require evidence of a coordinated group that planned and supported the violence. Individuals, even sympathizers, are not acts of terrorism but rather criminals deserving of their punishments. J Street's claim to be pro-Israel can be equivocated to mean either pro-government or pro-Judaism. One has to decide what they think is being stated inorder to evaluate the claim. In the same sense MK Livini's letter likewise equivocates and one can see an endorsement either political or religious depending on one's perspective.
31 | CHECHEN MIDDLE EAST, Tuesday Nov 10, 2009
TO 1:
IT IS AMAISING THE INTEREST OF TINY NORWAY IN MIDDLE EAST!
MOST INTERESTING IS AN INTEREST OF A PRIVATE NOVRGIANS.
NOT IN OCEANIA OR SOUTH AMERICA.NOT EVEN EUROPE!
CAN MARTIN EXPLAIN THAT TO ME?
THE LAST TIME THEY WERE INVOLVED IN GEOPOLITICS WAS IN WW II.AND IIT WAS ON THE WRONG SIDE.COINCIDENCE?TENDENTION?RULE?
KEEP SKIING! YOU ARE GOOD IN IT! (YET, NOT THE BEST...)
32 | Mike Feldman, Canada, Tuesday Nov 10, 2009
Chris. I dont know where you get your information, but there are terrorist acts and terrorist conpriracies. It takes the involvement of more than one for a conspiracy, but certainly one person can commit a terrorist act.It has been reported that Major Hasan lived in a $320.00 a month apartnent and drove an old cluncker. His income was over 6 figures. Im sure the investigation willl "flollow the money", and we may find out more in the near future.
33 | Dav Lev, Wednesday Nov 11, 2009
I hate J St and related US Jewish groups with every ounce of my body. But I will fight to defend
their right to free speech and assembly. That's why America is the best country ever. JSt is just another one of 60 plus groups..ranging from Progressive Judaism to AIPAC to the ZOA and beyond. Let them have their say. Don't give them any support however..or donate or do anything to recognize them. Kill them with kindness and silence. Mel Gibson's picture earned 600m thanks to publicity, some Jewish given. Hasan is killing any support for the Arab jIhadists..Fatah says "Death to Israel". Get it.
34 | LEONARD EISENSTEIN, Wednesday Nov 11, 2009
All comments concering JStreet, and other left wing Jewish (supposedly) organizations are just spinning their wheels. Obama and Rahm are either so swayed by their far left constituency that they believe they can have a Peace with out the support of Israel. With over 90% of Israelies considering Obama an enemy how can their ever be Peace. The sooner this Administration realizes that Israel is the Lynch Pin to Peace in ME the better they will be able to attain some stability their. Getting back to point, JStreet is the worst of all kinds of enemies of Israel. No amount of Spin can change that.
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