Monday Dec 22, 2008

Whose Hannukah is it anyway?

Posted by Rabbi Michael Marmur
Comments: 104
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Both of my regular readers will have noticed that I have been silent for the last couple of months. I have not been away, nor has there been a shortage of events worthy of comment. In fact, the problem has been mine: I have been struck by the uneasy sense that nothing I write can make any difference. No difference to the inhabitants of Sderot and the settlements closest to the Gaza Strip. No difference to the drivers of Israel as we engage in our relentless cull of pedestrians and passengers. No difference to the recipients of hundreds of millions of philanthropic dollars which have been lost in the greatest con trick in the history of Wall Street. No difference to the confused voters of Israel, caught between mediocrity and demagoguery, platitude and posturing.

Why, then, have I put virtual pen to metaphoric paper? It's not that I have suddenly become confident that these words can make a difference. Rather, it's because there are some moments in the life of this country where an answer is called for, however quixotic and futile. There are some actions which demand response, and to say nothing is to be complicit.

A few weeks ago there were acts of deliberate and heinous violence perpetrated by a number of Hebron residents and their supporters against unsuspecting and wholly innocent Palestinians. These were not the only acts of senseless violence which have taken place in recent weeks, but there is something about them which makes it necessary to speak up. Unlike the road carnage, unlike the attacks on innocent civilians in Sderot and neighboring settlements, the attack on Palestinians was perpetrated in the name of Judaism. Those who did it believe they are acting in the finest traditions of our people.

Hannukah began this week, a festival of heroism and activism. The crazy Hebron thugs who acted in a bestial fashion probably see themselves as the heirs of the Maccabees, bringing the light of the Hannukah miracle into a twentieth century reality. They are wrong, and it is up to the rest of us to say so, loudly and clearly. In the wrong hands, the Hannukah flame can ignite the entire region. There is a thin line separating heroism from lunacy, and it is up to Israel's silent majority to make sure that line is not crossed.

Terrorizing another person can never be an acceptable expression of any kind, let alone of the highest moral values of the Jewish people. There are any number of legitimate disagreements between Israelis on issues of Right and Left, but this is now a matter of Right and Wrong. To stay silent is in some way to suggest that rampaging through the neighborhood while men, women and children cower in their homes in fear is a valid expression of the Jewish spirit. It is not.

Can I bring empirical evidence to back this claim? After all, our Biblical past is replete with distasteful and morally questionable episodes. Perhaps I am just demonstrating wishy-washy liberal soft-heartedness?

Rather than appeal to history, I want to suggest that the senseless desecration of another person's dignity runs against everything we know and believe in - Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, Secular, and none of the above. This is not about denominations, and certainly not about party politics.

When Mattityahu took a stand in a market square over two thousand years ago, and when his sons mobilized to defend our independence, they were actually breaking with tradition. They had decided that the realities of their day forced them to draw a line and stand their ground. Their actions resonated with their people, and they effected a profound change.

In our day, the question of who we are and the stands we take is up for grabs. If we allow a lunatic fringe of pseudo-Hasmoneans to carry the mantle for Jewish activism and Jewish heroism, we allow them to write the next chapter of our story. It is up to us to generate a bigger light, and to make clear that along with pride and independence comes humility and humanity. To desecrate the humanity of another person is to commit the sin of idolatry. Calmly and firmly, with love and good humor, we have to stand up for what is right.

There, I've said it now. I am sure that once these words are read by both my regular readers, the course of Jewish history will be altered, and we will all live happily ever after. Or perhaps not: but somehow we don't have the right to light the candles and sing the songs, if we are not prepared to defend the values we find in those heroic and embattled flames. The young people who went on the rampage in Hebron, and the older people who whipped them up into a frenzy, they are not the heirs of the Jewish flame nor bearers of the Jewish future. If we wake up and take a stand, that privilege could fall to you and me.

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1  |   Joel Katz http://religionandstateinisrael.blogspot.com/, Monday Dec 22, 2008 I noticed. Keep writing!
2  |   sptz, Tuesday Dec 23, 2008 marmurs murmurings...... "Perhaps I am just demonstrating wishy-washy liberal soft-heartedness? " No one likes violence and can excuse the perpertrators for their 'largesse 'in threatening 'innocent' families.If you admire the Macs of old you must realize that fighting is acceptable against all those wishy-washy, hellinizing, soft hearted Jews and foes who try to extinguish the flame of Judaism. Today, the enemy is as much within Israel's borders as they are on the outside- The elections will show that the end is near for faithless, leftist liberals who have almost destroyed Israel.
3  |   Markowitz, Tzufim, Tuesday Dec 23, 2008 B"H If Reform and conservative and others really understood Chanukah for what it was/is they wouldn't observe it. Matityahu and his family fought and killed Jew and non Jew for sake of continuing Torah observance. They did not fight for freedom of religion, nor did they fight for Jews to have the right to worship as they pleased. Just note, if they didn't fight and win, you Marmur wouldn't be here to trash our Holy way of life. And as for the Arabs of Hebron, remember Shimshon..."as theyhave done to me, so have I done unto them." Remember 1929, remember Shaulhevet Pass, and the Lapids.
4  |   David, Tuesday Dec 23, 2008 How appropriate that Marmur compares the people in Hebron who shot Arabs IN SELF DEFENSE to the "lunatic fringe of pseudo Hasmoneans" That's the point - Chanukah is a celebration of the Torah Observant Jews reclaiming the Land of Israel from the foriegn invaders and their Hellinist Jewish supporters. Marmur is a Hellenist - bent on replacing Torah Judaism with secular humanism as the foundation of Israeli society. In fact, as a famous 20th century rabbi once noted, if the Reform really understood what Chanukah is about, they would boycott it!
5  |   Chaya Gilburt - Brazil, Tuesday Dec 23, 2008 The settlers are not heineous thugs. They are families with children, and they have a right to live and worship in Hevron. Rabbi--surely, you of all people, ought to acknowledge and defend this right. The so-called settler "violence" has yet to equal the violence perpetuated by Palestinians against your own people. I would say that you will have to make a choice between your people and appeasing other nations. If Jews had not decided to defend Jews and the right to practice Judaism, then Hanuka never would have come to be. Think about that.
6  |   gisler switzerland, Tuesday Dec 23, 2008 not at all wishy-washy,but an integer persons view on handling the weaker and tradition.
7  |   Jan, Australia, Tuesday Dec 23, 2008 Rabbi Marmur, were you referring to the refusal to fight the 1st time the Israelites came to the Land due to fear, as the "Biblical past" "replete with distasteful and morally questionable episodes"? Saul was condemned for NOT killing every Amalekite, man, woman and child. Samuel, himself, the great prophet killed their king. Why? Because God wanted it. It is the same God who will yet send forth his command. "The high praise of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand; To execute vengeance upon the nations, and punishments upon the people". Israel prepare to meet your God.
8  |   Negev Girl, Negev, Wednesday Dec 24, 2008 A perfect example of not letting the facts get in the way of what he wants to write. Jews were stoned there and couldn't even go back to Kiryat Arba because our police blocked the roads so they could perpetrate their Jew-cleansing operation. So they had to cut through that area where the Arabs were only too happy to stone them. THey LOVE when our police and soldiers attack other Jews. It puts the Arabs in a great mood. And all this as Arabs steal 10's of thousands of acres in the Negev and the government has the nerve to talk about "enforcing the law"! They never enforce it here in the Negev
9  |   samg NYC NY, Wednesday Dec 24, 2008 Its apparent that Mummra doesnt understand Channuka at all, or he would be embarassed of his column. In Jpostland you cant critisize columns or they wont publish you but here goes anyway - lets see if they can publish some TRUTH for once. Channuka isnt about any of the things Mummra spoke about. It was about the Jews taking back what was theirs all along - this time by force. Its a shame he wont stand up for Jews doing that today - he calls them crazy, and he would have called the Hashmonaim crazy too, as well as Moses, Joshua, King David and even GOD. Jews are about the Torah, go read it SIR
10  |   Uri - Jerusalem, Israel, Wednesday Dec 24, 2008 Impressive. So the hatred happened in Hevron, where all Medinat Israel feared that the limits of respect to the government and to all israeli inhabitants were passed, is to defend the Jewish Tradition from Arabs, Hellenists, etc? Who are the Hellenists, almost all israelis? Only these group of rebels without a cause are heroic Jews, Macabim? No, they are much more similar to the palestinian terrorists they condemn. Those people are more for Hamas and Hizbollah and less for Macabim. It´s not a question of being orthodox, conservative, reform or else, but to be Mentsch. Chag Urim sameach
11  |   MBK, Sussex, Wednesday Dec 24, 2008 Toda raba Rabbi Marmur. Your comments are right on target. Forget the labels - liberal, reform; secular, religious - the intrinsic Jewish values of tikkun olan and justice are slipping away thanks to those who have no regard for the religious or political views of others. This country was founded on sound democratic values which are being replaced by a selfish, bigotted short-sighted thugs who seem unable to understand the long-term consequences of their actions. Without a strong, intelligent leadership, mob rule will determine our future.
12  |   Chanya, Wednesday Dec 24, 2008 You condemn Hebron's Jews for attacking what you believe are innocent Palestinians (we'll leave for now whether there are two sides of the story). But Haredi Jews recently beat up MO teenage girls in Bet Shemesh(on Shabbat!) Have you spoken out, or is just when it's Jews vs. Arabs, not Jews vs. Jews? Palestinians have attacked Jews so many times, including in Hebron. Have you spoken out, or is it just when it's the other way around? NGOs in England have created anti-Semitic Christmas cards. Have you spoken out? Even assuming you are right about Hebron, your selectivity speaks volumes.
13  |   samg NYC, NY, Wednesday Dec 24, 2008 Replacing GOD and his word with the fake "god" of "piece and tikkun olam" is a sham - and if Mumra had the courage - he would say so. The Torah isnt that long - where is Tikkun Olam in it? I seem to only see GODs promise to the Jewish people. Channuka should be a time for the religious and non religious to realize that the false messiah of PEACE with the enemy only ends up being PIECE. No other religion would sanction giving up its heritage, holy sites & cities. If the arabs want respect and tolerance from the Israelis they should start for returning those items ASAP. PEACE not PIECE!!
14  |   Mike Carroll, Wednesday Dec 24, 2008 My zeal eats at me. I hate to read every day about how Gods chosen people who have rockets launched at them and the part that burns is that they allow it! Choose this day who you will serve if God is God than follow him and obey him, if not than follow... whoever. There can be only ONE truth. I believe that when Israel obeys that God will honor them and they will have peace and prosper. God cannot allow a blessing when there is disobediance. Personally I applaud ANYONE who will stand up to the enemy like Jonathan and his armor bearer. It was the YOUTH that entered the promised land.
15  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Wednesday Dec 24, 2008 TO MBK #11- Do you call the Torah mitzvot that make hereditary distinctions (such as only kohanim may offer korbanot and who one may marry) and command us to kill all of Amalek unjust? Was Israel founded on 'sound democratic ideas' when it legislated a JEWISH right of return only, and not a Muslim one? Is the strong, intelligent leadership that you desire the one which is allowing Hamas to grow ever stronger, after giving away Gaza? That allows foreign ships to make a mockery of the policy of controlling access to Gaza? Shalom
16  |   Non-Believer, Thursday Dec 25, 2008 To Shalom #11. The proof is in the pudding. You call for a hierocracy grounded on heredity, a sectarian and parochial state that excludes non-Jewish participation, and genocide to expunge the memory of Amalek. That combination is sure to turn Israel into a pariah state if it isn't one already as evidenced by its policy towards Israeli-Arabs and to the Palestinian people residing under occupation.
17  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Thursday Dec 25, 2008 Hi, Non-Believer- In fact, if you reread my post you will notice that I did not call for a Torah based theocracy; for that, I believe that we should wait for the Moshiach. I simply pointed out the inconsistencies in post #11. Having said that--please note that the more Israel has pursued policies meant to win affection and support, the more it's been maligned. Remember the propaganda about how world opinion would support Israel after giving away Gaza? That really worked (SARCASM). The proof IS in the pudding--and it demonstrates that appeasement is harmful. Shalom
18  |   Daniel, Thursday Dec 25, 2008 Rabbi Marmur, if its senseless acts in the name of Judaism that irk you, perhaps you should discuss the "disappearence" and "extinction" of millions of Jews due to your Reform movement - "in the name of Judaism". The very celebration of Chanuka was our victory over Hellenists like yourself who have brought spriritual destruction upon our people and religion. Perhaps it would have been wiser to stay quiet just another week. If you can look the other way at the destruction that you are promoting in the name of Judaism, surely, you can ignore a few hotheaded youth in Chevron.
19  |   Nick, Finchley, UK, Saturday Dec 27, 2008 Hope you don't mind, our Rabbi used this post as a lead for her Chanuka sermon, so I will be adding your blog as a feed and look forward to reading your next post. Thank you for articulating what common decency requires and shame on those comments that try to excuse the inexcusable.
20  |   Jason, Monday Dec 29, 2008 Daniel (18), once again, you solely blame the Reform movement for the "disappearence and extinction of millions of Jews". As if Orthodox Judaism is and was simply so attractive that everybody would flock to it had the reform or conservative movements did not exist! Do you have any evidence for such an outrageous accusation? Hundreds of thousands of Jews left Orthodoxy (and millions of others are not attracted to it today) because they felt that it did not speak to them, it remained in the past or because it managed to squeeze any remaining life from our glorious tradition.
21  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Monday Dec 29, 2008 Hi, Nick, If you don't mind, I'd like to ask how your Rabbi addressed the 'Christmas Carols' sung in some English churches which demonized Israel, and the ongoing missile attacks against Israel? By the way, is she for or against the Maccabees destroying the idols in the Holy Temple, or was that too sectarian and intolerant? Did she also favor the BBC broadcasting Achmadinejad's message to the English people? Shalom
22  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Monday Dec 29, 2008 Hi, Jason, Perhaps one might restate Daniel's point in this way--Rabbi Marmur, since you've taken so long to post, why would you choose to condemn the 'settlers' when they maintain that they are being unfairly demonized by the government, who are probably trying to set the stage for another evacuation, as in Gaza? We know that the left wing media is happy to assist in that effort. In your limited time, why aren't you focusing on Arab terror, Iranian threats, and Jewish assimilation? Isn't Channukah a natural time to build up, rather than tear down? -- What do you think, Jason? Shalom
23  |   Jason, Monday Dec 29, 2008 Shalom (22), i do believe that R'Marmur would agree with you that we are facing the threats of Arab terror, Iranian threats & Jewish assimilation as you put it. But in the view of many these threats are compounded by those thugs in the sthachim who believe that they have the God given right to brutalize innocent Palestinians. These thugs only undermine our efforts, & they do not assist our cause. Need i remind you of the Bar Kochba rebellion which needlessly caused the deaths of over 2 millions Jews?The illustrious R'Akiva (in hindsight) foolishly supported Bar Kochba to everybody's detriment.
24  |   Daniel, Monday Dec 29, 2008 Jason - Great point, Jason. But, the facts indicate otherwise: Two out of three reform Jews marry goyim. Three out of three chareidim marry Jewish. Again, check Wertheimer. So, who is responsible for the "disappearence and extinction of millions of Jews". Huh? And to which "glorious tradition" outside of orthodoxy do you refer to? Where does this traditon exist outside the annals of your own imagination? To which society do you refer to? The glorious Reform movement which is gasping it's last breath all accross America? (Hey, I get it. Is that why Rabbi Marmur is trying to start in Israel?)
25  |   Lloyd, Monday Dec 29, 2008 As usual Rabbi, the debate preciptated by your blog twists all out of proportion your original subject matter. I can support aggressive military action against Israel's enemies and a strongly zionist position on the possession of the land but still advocate careful scrutiny over the methods used and objectives toward which the use of violence is put. That scrutiny is properly within the realm of Jewish values regardless of Orthodox, Conservative or Reform labels. By the way, I doubt your readership can be accurately estimated or characterized based only on those who post comments!
26  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Tuesday Dec 30, 2008 Hi, Jason, whether or not one agrees with the desire to settle in the stachim, one doesn't know whether the media reports are accurate. I've read accounts refuting them, and I don't really know which to believe. I do believe that the government has at times used settlers as a distraction in their desire to appease, and look at how the media suddenly loved Sharon and Olmert when they decided to go that route, ignoring their personal legal issues just so they give away land. I also find it curious that in the one blog posted in over a month this was the sole chosen topic. Shalom
27  |   Daniel, Tuesday Dec 30, 2008 I can see it already! Bernie Madoff writes a blog for Jpost about honesty in the business world. Daniel unleashes a flurry of comments pointing out the hypocrisy and the sheer chutzpah. Jason fights back pointing out how a chareidi once didn't pay taxes etc... Shalom scolds Daniel for not being dan lekaf zchus and speaking loshon haro etc.. And Lloyd comes along and is disgusted with Daniel because he did not stick to the issue and continues to discuss the virtues of honesty in the business world. And Madoff himself is happy that he is generating so many comments.....and so it goes on.
28  |   Jason, Tuesday Dec 30, 2008 Shalom (26), i did not say that i do not support the "settlements", i simply do not support the thugs that R'Marmur was critical of. Surely, you must believe that there is a grain of truth in those reports critical of those unruly settlors who use violence indiscriminately? As for Daniel (27), you have set up a straw man argument. Comparing Reform Judaism to Bernie Madoff is insulting and wholly unfair. Why not compare Madoff to say Rubashkins or to Charedi rabbanim who persist on sexually abusing little children at yeshivot that permit them to remain as educators at their institutions?
29  |   Cheryle San Juan Puerto Rico, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008 Missed you! Go for it! We cannot, and must not, stoop to a level from which we may never rise. How can we expect others to act responsibly when we ourselves have no concept of what is acceptable? Not to mention the age old 'Jew against Jew' civil war. Sometimes I wonder who the real enemies are. Thankfully, you know who you are and won't be bullied by those who believe they are holier than thou! At this writing, Israel is being condemned by the world at large for the Gaza 'mess' we didn't create in the first place. We will do what has to be done with grace and dignity and blessings.
30  |   Daniel, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008 The only comparison between Rabbi Marmur and Madoff is in the hypocrisy and deception. Whats more amusing to me besides his self-righteous comments, and the subjects that he chooses etc. are the reactions by the rest of us. It follows a very hillarious and exact pattern - and you, my friend, just proved my poiint ! And so it goes on and on!!!!
31  |   Jason, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008 Daniel (30), there is a striking comparison between you and the likes of Muslim and Christian fundamentalists. You are essentially cut from the same cloth. What you share with these fundamentalists is a general disdain for anything that may depart from what you believe in. You cannot imagine a world in which Jews of sound mind can disagree with you and your mesorah. You are critical of RÂ’Marmur of being self-righteous, yet your self-righteousness clearly far exceeds any exhibited by RÂ’Marmur.
32  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Wednesday Dec 31, 2008 Hi, Jason, I imagine that there is 'a grain of truth' to them--the question is how much, and in the one blog written in nearly 3 months why would that be the one subject one chooses to write about? In discussing the issues of Chevron one could also choose to discuss the 'peace' activists who give aid and comfort to the terrorists, the insanity of those who oppose the fence, the post Zionist negativity of the left who serve the country less and less, and a whole host of related issues. It seems to me that this choice is interesting and telling. Shalom
33  |   Daniel, Thursday Jan 01, 2009 Jason 31 - I guess after my two last posts, there is really nothing left to say than to call me names. Very typical. As to your second comment, my "disdain" for other views is only outdone by you and Marmur, whose sole belief system is the destruction of the right. You have not once verbalized what you believe in, who you associate with, and the ideal society which you envision. All we here from you is about Chareidi pedophilia! I wonder what psycologist would say about you! You are truly obsessed!!!!
34  |   Jason, Monday Jan 05, 2009 Daniel (33), my personal beliefs are irrelevant. R'Marmur has a most intriguing blog (much more interesting than the Orthodox Opinions blog which has not posted since Dec 07 and which generates very little or interesting discussion!), yet you take every possible opportunity to dismiss his views (in your disrespectful manner), and i have simply responded to your missives. Why do i need to advise you of my personal opinions and with whom i associate with? In any event, if you really wish to know, my ideal society is one in which tzedakkah and justice prevails.
35  |   Daniel, Monday Jan 05, 2009 Very intriguing, indeed. The best one where he quotes Wertheimer and basically says that yes, Reform has failed, and quotes a poem gloating how well they have failed and since there is no alterantive, they will continue to fail. Imagine Madoff saying, yes, I have failed and I stole all of your money, but since the market is shot, please continue to invest with me. We have destroyed millions of dollars/jewish souls - but please bare with us !!!!! So I suppose an atheist society which is based on tzedaka and justice would suit your requirements as an ideal society? Or do you wish to elaborate?
36  |   Jason, Wednesday Jan 07, 2009 Daniel (35), is Wertheimer your new god now? If Wertheimer wrote an article critical of the Orthodox, would you accept it wholeheartedly?
37  |   Daniel, Wednesday Jan 07, 2009 Jason 36 - Ofcourse! But, I think I could write a more critical article about the Orthodox than you or any other anti-chariedi could. But, not for any of the reasons that you think. And that is only because of the high standard that I expect from our community which is head and shoulders over all others. So, Jason, which society do you indentify with that is based on justice and tzedakah? Or will you dodge this question?
38  |   David Maryland, USA, Friday Jan 16, 2009 I just saw this post. I am struck also by a sense of futility in it all. The attacks within Judaism are almost as devastating as the attacks from outside. I sometimes wonder if the Maccabees would have attacked modern Reform Jews as "hellenized". In the end, religion is ultimately in my view between man and G-d, not man and man. Only G-d is eternal, not man and how each of us chooses to worship our G-d should be an individual choice worthy of respect.
39  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Sunday Jan 18, 2009 Hi, David, If the Reform would have supported those who put idols in the Holy Temple and outlawed Brit Milah, then I am sure that the Maccabees would have attacked them--wouldn't you? Tachlis, what do you mean by 'worthy of respect'--should we respect one who tells us that Jesus is the fulfillment of our Torah and prophets, and that all of our Rabbis and ancestors are wrong? Should Israel subsidize them as they subsidize a synagogue? There are limits to respect and tolerance. Shalom
40  |   Jason, Sunday Jan 18, 2009 Daniel (37), i do not identify with any existing society today. This is why i relate to those Neviim who blast the jewish people for their failures. There is very little tzedek or misphat in this world if you have not yet noticed.
41  |   Lloyd, Sunday Jan 18, 2009 For the past 3 weeks the great bulk of the Jewish world, excepting a very few self-hating Jews, has stood together in support of Israel defending its citizens against Hamas terrorists. Jews of all postions and affilations, standing together in the Diaspora, and fighting together in the IDF in Gaza. So what a disappointment to see this last exchange. What are these examples, Shalom (39)? Who in Reform wants to worship idols, or Jesus, or force anyone else to? What purpose is served by this kind of ridiculous speculation?
42  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Monday Jan 19, 2009 Hi, Lloyd, I didn't say that Reform worship idols or Jesus. I simply was responding to David's speculation about the Maccabees, which is why I wrote that *IF* the Reform would have supported the Hellenists, the Maccabees would have attacked them. Please note that David had raised the question, and, frankly, I am not convinced that most Reform would have supported the Maccabees- are you? Considering that some Reform clergy perform intermarriage, over half intermarry, few keep kosher or Shabbat and many support gay marriage--are you sure of the answer?
43  |   Daniel, Monday Jan 19, 2009 Jason 40 - You do not identify or relate with any society. Amazing! I suppose then that you do relate to the neviim which blast the Jewish people as you've stated. But then again, you dont believe in any kisvei kodesh or neviim that record their words. So let's boil it down to this: YOU AGREE WITH ANYONE WHO BLASTS THE JEWISH PEOPLE WHETHER THESE PEOPLE EXIST OR NOT !! Thank goodness such a society does not exist.....your best post yet.
44  |   Daniel, Monday Jan 19, 2009 Lloyd - What Shalom is in essence saying is that the Reform movement has been around for a long time. They were there in Eygpt when they did not accept Moses, they were around when they didn't accept the words of the prophets, the talmud, the Maccabbees etc...etc.... and they are here today when they don't accept the words of the Rabbis. Only difference here is that neither group is a descendant of the other. None of them remained to tell their story. It is only the descendants of the Torah true who have to cry over the mistakes of our brethrens and to warn others not to go down the same path.
45  |   Lloyd, Monday Jan 19, 2009 Shalom, you can't put today's Reform Jews into context of the Macabbees and speculate about who they would have supported. Today they are liberal; they would respect the entitlement of themselves and others to worship without idols and desecration of the Temple but also the entitlement to "Hellenize" by choice. But modern liberalism did not exist then. Your comment is an ahistorical supposition about whether the Macabees would have seen fit to kill contemporary Jews, which should be abhorrent to us all. David's point was just about the damage we do each other and his point was well taken.
46  |   Jason, Monday Jan 19, 2009 Shalom (42), did not Shlomo Hamelech intermarry incessantly? Or are you going to suggest that he took each of his over 1,000 wives before a Beit Din, and converted each of them k'halacha? :)
47  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Tuesday Jan 20, 2009 Hi, Lloyd, it seems to me that one can ONLY speculate, as we don't know--that's why I wrote that 'IF they would have supported the idol worshippers THEN...". As Modern liberals would they support the Maccabees right to use the Temple but have demanded it have a corner for the idols so they could all coexist? I don't know, and again, I was only responding to David's ahistorical supposition. I do know that the Maccabees sacrificed for their devotion to G-d--as do the settlers. I also know that the American Reform canceled their trips to Israel during the tough times. Shalom
48  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Tuesday Jan 20, 2009 Hi, Jason, I know that in those days marriage and conversion were handled differently than today, and I am not learned enough to know how or why Shlomo married as he did. Or had the strength to do so. I also know that he offered korbanot, something which I cannot imagine the Reform even contemplating, as I believe that they removed references to them from their prayer books. Best wishes, Shalom
49  |   Jason, Tuesday Jan 20, 2009 Shalom (48), if we were honest with ourselves, I canÂ’t imagine ANYONE bringing karbanot today. So, I can certainly relate to the fact that Reform Jews (or any modern thinking person) have no appetite for such rituals. The whole Rubashkin affair should give all of us some pause for thought. What you are alluding to is that Judaism "evolved" and transformed. This is something that our Charedi friends are not willing to acknowledge. The Reform movement similarly understands this evolution (perhaps evolving all too quickly however!).
50  |   Lloyd, Tuesday Jan 20, 2009 Daniel, the Rabbi's themselves were the "Reform" of their day. And both you and I derive from them. May your descendants and mine survive to be Jews in the future. What form their Judaism will take neither you nor I can say. But I hope they respect each other more than today's Jews do. Shalom, your generalization about Reform Jews is breathtaking. My "Reform" Rabbi is in Israel now and has been through the whole thing. Reform Jews in my community have being doing everything they can in support of Israel here, politically and financially. Can you acknowledge that? Cont.
51  |   Lloyd, Tuesday Jan 20, 2009 Cont. Some of us Reform Jews even support the settlers, can you imagine that? What do we get for that? That we are not Jewish enough? Is that how you expect to attract more Reform Jews to Israel or to support Israel? Thanks very much but you are not good enough and you really ought to be classed with the enemies of the Macabees. What about all of the non-orthodox soldiers in the Israeli army? Or their families? Or the non-orthodox who fought to establish Israel in the first place? None of them sacrificed anything?
52  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Wednesday Jan 21, 2009 Hi, Jason, where your idea breaks down for me is that you are focusing on an inability to imagine offering korbanot, since it is now so foreign to our experience, while willing to accept the obligation to obey G-d. The Reform have demonstrated an unwillingness to follow Him, in having thrown off the obligations such as Shabbat and Kashrut. Rubashkin is a timeless example involving greed and insensitivity, having nothing in particular to do with korbanot that I can see. Evolution in Judaism does not equal accepting toevah.
53  |   Daniel, Wednesday Jan 21, 2009 Llyod - Please define how the Rabbi's themselves were the "reform" of their day. I pray everyday that all Jews will stay Jews in the future - relgious and secular. But based on statistics, I'm afraid only half my prayers will be answered. Lloyd, I respect you as a person, a jew, and a friend. But, unfortunatly I have seen the tragic consequences of Reform philosophy over the last two hundred years. Forgive me that I cannot agree or repect your opinion. However, as stated many times before, I invite you to contact me and to my house so you can see for yourself who I am !
54  |   daniel, Wednesday Jan 21, 2009 Lloyd - (cont.) I ask you to dig in to your family tree and go back a mere three to four generations. Chances are that your great great grandfather look more like me than Rabbi Marmur. Chances are they subscribed to torah observance and not observance by choice. A society based on observance by choice cannot survive as is proven by the Reform and Conservative movements. As stated before, one only has to watch the decay of Israeli society as evidenced in jpost to see the results.....
55  |   Jason, Wednesday Jan 21, 2009 Shalom (52), consider this. God in Tanach is perceived of in very anthropomorphic terms. He has arms and legs, he demonstrates anger, he comes down from his heavenly abode to speak with "man", he seeks Adam in the Gan Eden, God is known as being the “greatest of all other gods” (Mi kamoacha beelim adonai)...yet, over time and thanks to the Rambam, we dismiss this view of God. Can we not view karbanot as being "foreign to our experience"? I cite Rubashkin simply to demonstrate the cruelty that is shown to animals & our heightened sensitivity re same, which cannot be said of earlier times.
56  |   Daniel, Wednesday Jan 21, 2009 Lloyd 51 - I don't believe Shalom was denying the good that Reform Jews regarding political and financial help for the state (as well as other social causes). There is no question as to the good will of good hearted people like yourself in the Reform movement - we are all after all Jews! The only question is, what about everything else? Is that all that G-d asks from us? Do you not attach any importance to mitzva observance and the centrality of G-d in our lives? Even to secular standards (which at minimum is Jewish continuity) - these acts alone cannot sustain the Jewish nation.