Tuesday Mar 24, 2009

Point / Counterpoint: The response 'The Guardian' wouldn't print

Posted by Edwin Bennatan
Comments: 37
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Counterpoint to:

A case to answer

"Evidence that Israel committed war crimes in its 23-day operation in Gaza mounts by the week. Amnesty and Human Rights Watch have both appealed for a United Nations inquiry, after conducting their own investigations."
Editorial
The Guardian (London)
March 24, 2009


Over the past few days, the Guardian has been publishing a torrent of reports, opinion pieces, and video clips condemning Israel for war crimes during the Gaza conflict, and calling for an international inquiry and intervention by the International Criminal Court.
 
These articles have produced hundreds (and probably thousands) of responses on the paper's Web site, "Comment is Free" (CiF), many of which have depicted Israel as a country inhabited by monsters.
 
While heavily criticizing Israel's actions in Gaza, the paper has apparently been selective in its willingness to publish responses from supporters of Israel criticizing what they say is the Guardian's extreme lack of balance and proportion. One of the more detailed responses, from a reader named "TheVoiceOfIsrael," which was removed from the CiF site by the Guardian's moderators, is on my desk.

I am providing it here because I can find no justifiable reason why the editors of any respectable newspaper would remove it, and because the counter-arguments are well presented.

There can be absolutely no apology for any unlawful or degrading acts committed by Israeli soldiers during the Gaza campaign. There has ostensibly been evidence of such acts from Israel's own soldiers reported in the Israeli press, and Israel's Advocate-General, Avichai Mendleblit, has launched a full inquiry into these allegations.

The public outcry in Israel has been heard loudly on Israeli television, in the press and from many Knesset members. Israel's former military spokesman, Brigadier-General Nachman Shai, has spoken out emotionally and categorically in demanding a full and immediate investigation.

But we have been inundated by the Guardian with reports, video clips and opinion pieces describing the shocking, ugly, disgraceful, atrocities (if you believe it) committed by my people - Israel.
Either we in Israel are the most inhumane monsters ever to walk God's earth, or there is something wrong - very wrong - at the Guardian.

What we are reading here in the Guardian is a witch-hunt of the worst kind. Fifteen articles (FIFTEEN!!!) within just a couple of days condemning Israelis as monsters. This diatribe would shame the most virulent Palestinian propaganda site.

As if the UK armed forces in Iraq have not been accused by Amnesty International and others of such atrocities as having shot and killed Iraqi civilians, including an eight-year-old girl and a guest at a wedding celebration.

As if American soldiers returning from Afghanistan and Iraq have not reported to the press on atrocities committed by the British and Americans there.

As if the shameful, immoral and degrading acts by American soldiers at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison never occurred.

Baha Mousa, an Iraqi hotel receptionist, was beaten to death in the custody of British troops in Basra in 2003, and no British soldiers were ever convicted of this killing.

American soldiers have been accused of defecating in Muslim places of worship, and British soldiers accused (by their own attorney-general) of abuses in Iraq that 'apparently involved making the victims engage in sexual activity between themselves.'

And need we go back to the Falkland war, which has been called the cleanest war in British history, in which the British army was accused in the UK press of shooting Argentinean prisoners in cold blood.

War is hell, and it brings out the best in some of us and the worst in others. But reports on the behavior of soldiers in war must be told in context and in proportion. As an Argentinean officer said in an interview during the Falkland war: 'We are honored to face in battle such an enemy as Great Britain.'

For despite the disgraceful behavior of some British, American and Israeli soldiers, most people would by far prefer to face these armies in war then the Palestinians, the Iraqis, the Syrians, the Iranians, or the Russians.

No Israeli soldier will appear before the International Court, not only  because that court has shown time and time again that it is incapable of dealing impartially with the Israel-Palestinian conflict, but more importantly because Israel is perfectly capable of dealing with any illegal acts by its own soldiers - certainly no less than are Britain or the US capable of doing so. Israel has a total lack of confidence and no need for this heavily politicized court and, like the United States and other countries, has never accepted its authority.

This will not please the apologists for Hamas and the supporters of the Palestinians, and we can expect to continue to hear their outcry for months to come. The Israel-Palestinian conflict is being conducted on many fronts of which the media is but one, and they are doing their bit for their side.

But for a more balanced perspective on Israel in Gaza, you may want to read a recent editorial from The Independent (not exactly a pro-Israel newspaper)."

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1  |   Avrohom - Israel, Tuesday Mar 24, 2009
Anti semites are the first to abandon facts whenever they do not fit into their hate-filled world view. The Guardian is well known for their hatred, racism and anti-semitism. How fortunate we are to not be them!
2  |   Clap Hammer, Tuesday Mar 24, 2009
Edwin. Thank you for this exposure of CI(F)s obsessive anti Israel behavior. It is a shambles and willingly provides a platform for anti Semites to hide under their umbrella of anti Zionism. They publish articles by known terrorists from Hamas. They 'moderate' sensible posts which are not aligned with their world view, (Left, Anarchist and implacable hatred of the USA.). The Cabal of management their is implacably hostile to the Jewish state and has had three anti Israel articles just today. It is a sewer.
3  |   Baris, Caen, France, Tuesday Mar 24, 2009
Well, that diatribe of a "response" is not "responding" to anything. All that it is saying is "but, but, loook: John also stole cookies from the neighbor!!". In fact, Israel supporters are the first to abandon facts whenever they do not fit into their world view. They are in complete denial. That CiF comment, just like many articles on this paper engage in ad hominims and fail to address real content. Right now, there are roads, housing projects and townships which have been constructed by Israel in the West Bank for which a criteria of race is used to to determine eligibility. Address that.
4  |   CiFMmzrm, Earth, Tuesday Mar 24, 2009
Well-done, Petra!
5  |   AKUS, Wednesday Mar 25, 2009
Thanks for publishing this. Since I have since then seen no comments by TheVoiceOfIsrael, I think we can assume he/she has now been "banned" by the Guardian - prevented from submitting comments, even though, as you say, there is nothing to object to from the point of view a language, content, or tone - simply statements of verifiable facts and citations.
6  |   Tim, Wednesday Mar 25, 2009
The Guardian is an apologist for leftists, liberals, Nazis, Communists and Islam. They only guard the morals of garter snakes in heat and are not fit as reporters let alone opine about matters that are unfounded, biased, hateful, instigatory and detrimental to the lives of any human being. Without any basis for their holier-than-thou actions, they purport to present a humanistic view of events that is superior to that prescribed by the Creator, who thundered "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour." Thinking themselves wise, they expose utter foolishness. Beware the vipers!
7  |   Jay Goldberg, Illinois, USA, Wednesday Mar 25, 2009
This Bennatan article has been discussed on The Guardian editorial's website. One post, from a Peter Brennon, defending the original TheVoiceOfIsrael article, lingered there for a few hours (probably while the editors pondered what to do with it) and eventually they deleted it. I managed to save it before it got deleted. Here's what Brennon says: "I have never read an article in the Guardian calling for an international war crimes court to try British soldiers or for an international investigation of their behavior. Why do they measure the Israel army by a different yardstick? " Why indeed!
8  |   Clap Hammer - Tel Aviv, Wednesday Mar 25, 2009
AKUS. Perhaps it's time to contact me at clapthehammer@gmail.com. I don't want to be 'coy' but we have a definite convergence of interests. Iit is a pity that we are not exchanging information. I have some comments archived from CI(F) that were later deleted but only after constant references to them. Presumably because of a sudden realization as to their damming content. I have a copy of TheVoiceOfIsrael 14 Jan 09, 12:24am if that is in any way interesting. Sadly I don't have Halgeel88's famous 'Doctors with Jewish sounding names' comments. CI(F) has put them in oblivium.
9  |   J.J.Avi Safed Israel, Wednesday Mar 25, 2009
I want to vomit!
10  |   Clap Hammer - Tel Aviv, Wednesday Mar 25, 2009
Baris, Caen, France, 'Well, that diatribe of a "response" is no Right now, there are roads, housing projects and townships which have been constructed by Israel in the West Bank for which a criteria of race is used to to determine eligibility. Address that.' OK. I will address that. Patently incorrect information since Israeli Arabs can use the road. Strangely enough, those that cannot use the roads are Palestinians because some of them, notice 'some', want to kill Israelis. Such are the ways of the world.
11  |   Avrohom - Israel, Wednesday Mar 25, 2009
Baris, Caen, France #3, your comments are not on point and avoid the issue completely. It is you who disregards facts inconvenient to your world view. There is no reason to address your spin. Our issues with housing and neighborhoods is not a problem nor is it the point of this blog and the CiF. But people of ill will and anti-semites cannot stick to facts because facts disprove their point. So you resort to changing the subject to other subjects that also mean nothing. Deception is the name of your game. If you do not like our security measures, get your terrorists to stop attacking us.
12  |   Vladimir, USA, Wednesday Mar 25, 2009
No self-respected person even read the Guardian anymore. No wonder it got a nickname "Guardian of Lies".
13  |   H Mirza, London, Wednesday Mar 25, 2009
It's always going to be difficult to sell ethnic cleansing as a moral, justifiable and necessary 'evil.' But good work pointing at the Russians and saying, 'well at least we don't fight like those animals.' It's idiotic to say the entire IDF are monsters but continuously brutalizing the Palestinians will have dire psychological consequences for Israel's brightest and best. Those 'Kill 2 for 1' T-shirts say a lot.
14  |   Jaime XMarrano Barcelona, Wednesday Mar 25, 2009
The Guardians Banner "comment is free but facts are sacred" is a sick and a pathetic joke.Neither are the comments free nor are the facts sacred on the Guardian.The comments are free if they are anti-Israeli,and even then facts don't really matter .The Guardian is a butt clenching and puke inducing site
15  |   Miriam Ashkelon, Wednesday Mar 25, 2009
Unfortunately we in Israel have our own "guardian" in the guise of writing the "facts". Haaretz has done so much harm to our IDF soldiers - they make the Guardian look quite mild. I am ashamed to have a paper owned by Jews in our Jewish State like Haaretz, their editors, and so called journalists who care not a whit about truth.
16  |   Maya, Sweden, Wednesday Mar 25, 2009
Mirrors exactly what's going on in Swedish state and mainstream media Gaza reporting. We have nothing but "Guardians" over here! I'm thinking of emigrating ...
17  |   Vinegar Hill, Madrid, Spain, Wednesday Mar 25, 2009
Mr Bennatan: Surely one of the reasons which explain why the article was not published was that it is poorly written and contains an arrogance on the side of the author. The write shoots themselves in the foot with reference to atrocities carried out by British and US soldiers. These crimes are now well know and condemned as should similar crimes carried out by the IDF in Gaza. Then to claim that no Israeli soldier will appear an International court shows utter contempt with international law and justice.
18  |   Maurice Jones, Lancashire, UK, Wednesday Mar 25, 2009
Please read my talkback #12 responding to the current JP Guardian piece. Crystal clear evidence of censorship by these sick individuals. If they are so afraid of the truth, it speaks volumes about their lack of confidence in their own product.
19  |   Joe, Cambridge, MA, Wednesday Mar 25, 2009
The BBC website has also been publishing a similar slew of one-sided articles. What is disturbing is that the BBC has a much better overall reputation and is required to be impartial since it receives public funds. I would encourage those in Britain to focus their attention on the BBC (especially their website) since in my opinion this website is taken much more seriously than the Guardian and has a global reach.
20  |   David Naor, Herzliya, Israel, Wednesday Mar 25, 2009
Miriam #15: I don't agree with a lot in Haaretz, but comparing them to The Guardian is preposterous. Haaretz is a serious and responsible newspaper even though it represents politics that are very different to mine. They were right to publish the reports from IDF soldiers and officers in Gaza. We are a free society which is one of the main differences between us and the Arab countries, and in a free society you don't cover up your failures -- you fix them! And there are certainly things to be fixed in the IDF and covering them up will not ensure that they get fixed. Don't blame Haaretz!
21  |   Nachman, London, UK, Wednesday Mar 25, 2009
To 17 I would say that if 'comment is free' then what has ,and in any case your perceived arrogance, and not being well written got to do with right of refusal ? And again, to 17 and 3 'John also stole ...', one main point of difference is that no one calls for prosecution of UK and US etc. soldiers for atrocities committed by them in Iraq and Afghanistan by the ICC at the Hague, but as the writer pointed out that Israel will make their own investigations just as do the US and the UK. The US does not recognise the ICC and foreign courts so what about contempt for International law there ?
22  |   Nachman, London, UK, Wednesday Mar 25, 2009
To 17 I would say that if 'comment is free' then what has ,and in any case your perceived arrogance, and not being well written got to do with right of refusal ? And again, to 17 and 3 'John also stole ...', one main point of difference is that no one calls for prosecution of UK and US etc. soldiers for atrocities committed by them in Iraq and Afghanistan by the ICC at the Hague, but as the writer pointed out that Israel will make their own investigations just as do the US and the UK. The US does not recognise the ICC and foreign courts so what about contempt for International law there ?
23  |   Kathy, Thursday Mar 26, 2009
It is very simple really, satan and his followers were thrown out of heaven. They were given dominion over the earth. It really is just a battle of good versus evil. Souls are the prize. God's chosen people Israel, and Christian's are fighting the spiritual fight. All are given free will to believe in truth. God's covenent's are eternal. Those who choose not to believe, and choose evil over good will face God's judgement and wrath for denying his goodness and love and acknowledgement of his creating us in his image. God wants that none should be lost, so, all people all over the world choose......................
24  |   Yona Geitel, Givatayim, Israel, Thursday Mar 26, 2009
Kathy #23: Bless your little evangelist heart. Israel needs all the help it can get and we'll welcome even yours. And it's nice to hear that God wants that none should be lost. Out the window goes my GPS.
25  |   Avrohom - Israel, Thursday Mar 26, 2009
Kathy #23, I am not sure what your point is regarding this blog. But for your sake, you need to be corrected. Hashem's covenants are eternal. That is the clear, simple and short reason why Torah never morphed into Christianity, and the Christianity is not connected to Torah. So if your advice is to choose, it is best for you to heed your own advice. Good luck
26  |   Vinegar Hill, Madrid, Spain., Thursday Mar 26, 2009
#22 Hachman: The point I made was that the article rejected by the Guardian was pretty useless and, therefore, Bennatan was nit-picking. Furthermore, if you are upset about the possibility of war crimes being presented against the IDF why don't you or your ilk do the same against the British and American military forces? Many times internal investigations are nothing more than cover up jobs to satisfy the public and to sooth the critics.
27  |   Lancelot, Friday Mar 27, 2009
Miriam Ashkelon - I agree with everything you wrote, with one exception, because it's simply factually incorrect. And that point concerns the ownership of Haaretz. The paper is emphatically NOT, I repeat, NOT owned by "Jews". It'S owned by one of the biggest media/press conglomerates of, of all places, gee what a surprise!, The Federal Republic of Germany. Hardly some Jews.
28  |   Concerned Israeli, Friday Mar 27, 2009
It's a toss up which is worse,Haaretz or the Guardian.Both sound very anti-Zionist.Whenever Haaretz posts anything that is anti-Israeli,it will be quoted by CIF posters on the Guardian to use against Israel.
29  |   Concerned Israeli, Friday Mar 27, 2009
#26 Vinegar Hill,you and your ilk post pretty stupid and useless posts,yet the Jerusalem Post doesn't reject any of your posts.
30  |   pretzelberg, Sunday Mar 29, 2009
@ AKUS Hi there. You've said the deleted post was "simply statements of verifiable facts and citations". But that's not true, is it? How about this bit: "Fifteen articles (FIFTEEN!!!) within just a couple of days condemning Israelis as monsters." Can you name just one (never mind 15) article that condemns Israel as monsters? In fact I suspect that this was what got the comment deleted. Sorry, but I think people here are overreacting.
31  |   Michael Freeman-Toronto, Canada, Monday Mar 30, 2009
To H Mirza-the indiscriminate use of phrases such as "ethnic cleansing" elicits the worst kind of reactions-those that are unreasonable and emotion-laden, rather than considered and open-minded. Are the Palestinians living in a restricted, difficult environment? Certainly, although they are overwhelmingly the cause of their own suffering. Are they being systematically targeted for "being wiped off the map", as Iran would like to do to Israel? Certainly not. Here's the equation for Gaza-no missiles from Gaza into Israel, no Gaza war. Simple enough for anyone to understand.
32  |   Scott Benlevi, Saturday Apr 04, 2009
Add to the list of anti-Jewish rags...the San Francisco Chronicle which is on the verge of collapse as it has become a completely one-sided opinion piece as opposed to a journalistic standard. Let's face it, the christian and the moslem will never take responsibility for their ancestors' genocide against Jews and others. A responsible people makes sure that its media is fair and balanced...I see none of that in non-Jewish press.
33  |   Jilli., NZ, Sunday Apr 05, 2009
Even over here many have strong opinions as to pro-Israel or anti-Israel and base their ideas from the media. Therefore it is very damaging to Israel to have their own newspaper Haaretz condeming their own soldiers. It makes sense now to hear it is a German owned newspaper but articles like that should never reach the paper until they have been fully investigated. It's very hard to "stick up for Israel" when they are not united themselves. And yes, Kathy, 23 I agree with you, basically it all boils down to Satan (in many different ways) trying to rid the world of Gods chosen people.
34  |   Carl Jones Southampton U.K., Tuesday Apr 14, 2009
As a Nation under constant attack, clearly targetted at civilians I am amazed that there have been so few incidents relating to revenge or unlawful killings. The IDF have shown remakable constraint, I can see on one side respect for life, mercy and compassion. On the other hatered, violence and a total lack of respect for life. I am in saddened by the many who ignore facts, truth and conscience to so readily believe lies. What a contrast. I look to that day when weapons can be put aside and the world can see what a friend we have in Israel. You fathers and mothers can hold your heads high.
35  |   Matt Seaton, Comment is free, London, UK, Thursday May 14, 2009
Editor of Cif here: I don't know why 'TheVoiceofIsrael' post was removed by moderators, if you're quoting it in full and accurately, and I will seek clarification. But I have to challenge your misrepresentation of us. Today, the Guardian ran a response by historian Benny Morris to a recent article by Max Hastings. Both can be found on Cif today. When the UN published its report on the Gaza conflict, the first article we ran was by Robbie Sabel, a former Israeli foreign ministry adviser. We ran one balancing piece from HRW's Tom Porteous. So don't buy the propaganda. Come see for yourself.
36  |   Edwin Bennatan, Israel, Sunday May 17, 2009
Matt (#35), it is good that Cif sometimes publishes a pro-Israel view, but the point is that the ratio of anti to pro is extremely (and I mean EXTREMELY) biased in favor of anti. Reputable news media are not expected to divide their articles evenly between opposing views, but there is a level of imbalance beyond which the rare opposing view begins to look like an occasional token gesture towards objectivity. The period relating to this JP piece was a prime example of massive anti-Israel bias in Cif. There is nothing wrong in Cif having an anti-Israel policy, but why not state so honestly.
37  |   Tribelessness, Thursday Sep 10, 2009
Joseph Goebbels would have loved you on his side...Oh, you learned from him? I see. Palestine belongs to all Semites. None of you have any rights to murder each other under any circumstances. All members of any armed forces should be held accountable and prosecuted for crimes against humanity. Do not make propaganda out of omissions. Count one and all.
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