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Thursday Sep 18, 2008
Point / Counterpoint: Made-to-measure 'collective punishment' Posted by Edwin Bennatan
Comments: 15
Counterpoint to:
Philip O'Conor, writing in The Irish Times, alleges that Israel is guilty of collective punishment. What picture comes to your mind when you think of collective punishment? George Mason University Law Professor Michael Krauss, responds powerfully:
Krauss describes several other incidents and notes that these atrocities were fresh in the minds of international diplomats at the end of the war when they drafted Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention declaring collective punishment a war crime. Kraus, who is also a member of Quebec's human rights commission, asserts that the Israeli government's reduction of fuel and electricity exports to the Gaza Strip is a far cry from collective punishment as described in the Geneva Convention. Here's another highly regarded perspective. University of Chicago Economist and Nobel Prize Winner Professor Gary Becker and University of Chicago Law Professor and US Federal Judge Richard Posner have a joint Internet blog, on which Posner writes:
And in yet another perspective, Israel's internationally respected Supreme Court, which frequently rules against the government and compels it to alter its decisions, has rejected an appeal from several non-government organizations (NGOs) to block Israel from further reducing supplies of fuel and electricity to the Gaza Strip, stating that "...the damage [caused by attacks on Israel from Gaza] is not accidental, but rather a result of deliberate and frequent assaults on civilian populations which are aimed at harming innocent civilians. This is the difference between Israel - a democracy fighting for its life within the confines of the law - and the terror organizations trying to destroy it." A similar sentiment was expressed by the government of Canada that voted against the United Nations Human Rights Council resolution condemning Israel's actions in the Gaza Strip. Canada's representative, explaining his government's opposition to the resolution, said: "This draft resolution focuses almost entirely on Israel while ignoring that party's legitimate security concerns." What do all these instances demonstrate? Essentially that in contrast to Philip O'Conor's statement that "There is little doubt that Israel's economic strangulation of Gaza, constitutes collective punishment and is illegal under international humanitarian law", there is actually a great deal of doubt. It also demonstrates that O'Conor does not have a monopoly on quoting interpretations of the legitimacy of Israel's actions in Gaza. O'Conor mentions various NGOs that claim that Israel's restrictions on Gaza have "produced the worst humanitarian crisis there since the occupation began in 1967." Though the situation in Gaza may well be harsh, and in Israel's view it is self-inflicted, the exaggerated use of the term "worst humanitarian crisis" is sensationalist. And, of course, sensationalism may well be O'Conor's intent. After all, it is not his only use of hyperbole. He also refers to "Israel's economic strangulation of Gaza", and "this unprecedented humanitarian crisis." Unprecedented? Really. And while it would be unacceptable for Israel to take comfort in any level of humanitarian hardship in Gaza, the fact is that the Palestinians of Gaza are suffering the consequences of their own actions. Does this analysis refute Philip O'Conor's claim that Israel is employing illegal collective punishment against the Palestinians of Gaza? Probably not, and probably no argument ever could, as long as O'Conor uses his made-to-measure interpretation of 'collective punishment'. This is because one of the characteristics of war is that if you look closely enough, and if you have a sufficiently vague set of definitions, you will find almost anything you are looking for, irrespective of which protagonist you are examining. Posner offers a somewhat similar view. "Because warfare is inherently indiscriminate, innocent persons whose only connection to the fighting is that they live in the combat zone are unavoidably 'punished', but this is not collective punishment as a deliberate policy", he explains. (And even more so, in the case of Gaza, where the people who are affected are not persons whose only connection to the fighting is that they live in the combat zone.) So, with their made-to-measure toolbox of definitions, and with the right mindset, Philip O'Conor, and his colleagues of the Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign will always be able to find collective punishment, apartheid, and ethnic cleansing in the Israel-Palestinian conflict. There is no major conflict in the world, past or present, where they couldn't do the same.
1 | PW Virginia USA, Thursday Sep 18, 2008
Recently a study reported that conservatives as opposed to liberals hold onto untruths even in the face of factual refutation. I have seen this in the USA. I believe that extreme leftist are ruled by the same psycology as the rightist. It is an impediment of the mind in extremists. Leftists are not progressive in the slightest just as extreme rightists are not conservative either. This can show how propaganda works best at the extremes of which Phillip O'Conner is a prime example
2 | Jay Goldberg, Illinois, USA, Friday Sep 19, 2008
PW of Virginia, propaganda can move people to the extremes. O'Conor has a contagious affliction. Bennatan is trying to provide the antidote. Unfortunately, I am not at all sure that the patient will take the medicine.
3 | Vinegar Hill, Madrid, Spain., Friday Sep 19, 2008
I find the article and the supportive comments made by a "lap dog" very disconcerting. According to IHL reports, the accusations made by Mr. O'Connor, are accurate. Read the IHL documents. The IHL authority is based on the Geneva conventions of 1949 and, consequently, has the authority of international law. Furthermore, it is repugnant to see that Bennatan claims that the Palestinians are living that way because it comes from the "results of their own actions"! Shying from the truth will not win any friends.
4 | Vikram Mehta, Bangalore, India, Friday Sep 19, 2008
Vinegar Hill: it seems to me that Bennatan has provided some highly respected views that challenge O'Conner's opinions. At the very least, it is clear that top experts in the field are divided on the issue. Certainly Israel's position cannot be simply dismissed offhand. As for the Palestinians of Gaza living the consequences of their own actions, how can you even question this position knowing, as you must, the Hamas charter that calls for the annihilation of Israel, and that they fire daily salvos of rockets into Israeli towns? And, remember, these are the leaders elected by the Palestinians.
5 | Gabor Fränkl, Budapest, Hungary, Saturday Sep 20, 2008
Vinegar Hill, can you decipher how orbitally irrelevant your pseudo-arguments - being always apologetic to any position radical anti-semites and anti-zionists make - looks on these pages?
Moreover - why don't you undertake to publish your real name for us? What are you afraid of?
6 | rachamim ben ami, Saturday Sep 20, 2008
While one sees such commentary (as the sourced Irish Op-Ed) in the international media, Ireland as well as N. Ireland by and large has always leaned heavily towards Arab causes. The problem for the view espoused is that it is largely ignorant of military doctrine.
Containment is the only proven way to deter the adversarial issues facing Israel with regards to Gaza. Measures such as Punative Demolition had a proven track record of deterring terrorism when one examines the relevant data and cultural mores of the effected demographic.
No nation on Earth would sit by and suffer Qassams, etc.
7 | rachamim ben ami, bat yam, israel, Saturday Sep 20, 2008
Re Response #3 by Vinegar Hill: IHL is highly interprative and you might want to honestly ask yourself why Israel has never even been indicted much less tried on a single violation of IHL. The best Israel's opponents can muster is a Brief by the Hague on the Security Barrier (which by the way is a structure that has led to astronomical declines in fatal and overall attacks).
HAMAS by its very existence (not even listing its acts) is contravening IHL. Who elected HAMAS? Who allows terrorists to run schools? Ever even hear of al Aqsa TV? Take a REAL look at Gaza before lodging any complaints.
8 | Jay Goldberg, Illinois, USA, Saturday Sep 20, 2008
rachamim ben ami: The claim that "Ireland as well as N. Ireland by and large has always leaned heavily towards Arab causes", may be true, but the fact is that Ireland has recently become more radicalized than ever against Israel. I think it started with their president Mary Robinson, in 1997, who was almost fanatic in her hate of Israel. Yet, to be fair, after reading Bennatan's article, I checked the Irish Times (online) and found several responses to O'Conner from people with ethnic Irish names, that were quite good. Seemingly, there is even an Irish Friends of Israel organization. Begorrah!
9 | Daniel in San Jose, CA, Sunday Sep 21, 2008
Like many of the Geneva conventions, the prohibition on collective punishment applies to areas that a country controls. Israel does not control Gaza. Gaza under Hamas is a sovreign state by any definition used elsewher in the world. Saying Israel is guilty of collective punishment in Gaza is as absurd as saying that the United States was guilty of collective punishment in bombing Berlin during WWII. After all, there were plenty of people under those bombs who weren't Nazis and who had no part in fighting us. Gaza's people and rulers are responsible for their own actions & destiny.
10 | Maria Doyle, Sunday Sep 21, 2008
Philip O'Connor's article was a response to this Oped by Sean Gannon published August 15th.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/0815/1218747921606.html
This letter was then published in responose to O'Connor.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2008/0911/1221039061572.html
I did not see Edwin Bennatan's counterpoint before it was removed so I do not know what O'Connor took issue with but here in Ireland the Palestinian lobby group he represents has a reputation for making vague legal threats against its media critics.
11 | Jay Goldberg, Illinois, USA, Sunday Sep 21, 2008
Maria Doyle: I think there is some confusion in your comment. Bennatan's conterpoint to O'Connor appears above and was never removed (in fact, all of his articles are now displayed online here). You also need to check whether O'Connor took issue with *anything* Bennatan wrote, because it is not clear that he even read or saw it, or even responded to it (there's nothing on this thread). You may be confusing all this with the Seth Freedman issue (something completely different). BTW, who are you, Ms. Doyle, if I may ask?
12 | Maria Doyle, Monday Sep 22, 2008
Hi Jay: I think I confused Bennetan's counterpoint with a BlogCentral message about the withdrawal of another counterpoint. Having had experience of the Irish Palestinian lobby group I jumped to conclusions. I am an Irish-American, married to a British Jew, and living in Carlow, Ireland for the past four years so I follow Irish coverage of Israel as closely as I can. As you say it is heavily biased in favor of the Arabs.
13 | Vinegar Hill, Madrid, Spain., Monday Sep 22, 2008
Vikram. There are times when one needs to stand up and be counted. The Israeli blockade of Gaza is inhuman at the very least and no wonder Hamas, who won democratically their position of power, react in the way they do. What does the EU do? The USA? What would you do if you were born in Gaza? Finally, Hamas has only been in power for a short period of time. Prior to that, Israeli forces continually entered Gaza causing untold suffering and misery.
14 | Ben Ami, Tel Aviv, Israel, Tuesday Sep 23, 2008
Vinegar Hill - you have no idea what you are talking about. The Gaza blockade was caused by Hamas. For Israel it was a necessity, but the Hamas rocket attacks on Israel were discretionary. If I was born in Gaza I would be organizing resistance to Hamas, - a radical Islamic hate-filled organization (and I certainly wouldn't have elected them). As for standing up and being counted, Vinegar, you've got to be careful where you stand up and with whom you are being counted. There are much better places to be counted than with Hamas who have brought nothing but misery to their people.
15 | Vinegar Hill, Madrid, Spain., Thursday Sep 25, 2008
Gabor Frankl. My comments, far from being "orbitally irrelevant...pseudo arguments" are pertinent and relevant. They are not apologetic towards anti-Semite or anti-Zionist views, especially when a relevancy is to be found, as in the article by O´Connor. Furthermore, what does it matter if I were to offer another name than Vinegar Hill. Does it matter if you know if I am male or female? What's wrong with you?
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