Thursday Jan 08, 2009

Point / Counterpoint: Everybody's wrong (except Turkey)!

Posted by Edwin Bennatan
Comments: 23
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Counterpoint to:

 Looking past Gaza
"The short-sighted refusal to talk to the Hamas Islamists encouraged Israel to continue and intensify its blockade, provoked Hamas's subsequent increasingly violent response, victimised the population of Gaza, and has made it much harder to stop the fighting once it started."

Simon Tisdall
The Guardian (London)
December 7, 2008


Anyone who has been following the international press over the past two weeks is undoubtedly familiar with the downpour of news reports, opinion pieces, op-eds, editorials, and other commentaries on the war in Gaza that have been virtually dominating much of the world media. While this is certainly not unexpected in the Arab and Islamic press, it is a surprising phenomenon in the European media where it far surpassed the 2006 Lebanon war.

There have been some excellent analyses and opinion pieces both pro- and anti-Israel. Yes, Israel's opponents have on occasion challenged us skillfully, which in turn led to some excellent responses from pro-Israel columnists (one such particularly powerful response appeared in the London Times).

But there were also commentaries, even some from respected authors, that left much to be desired. Such is the opinion-piece from The Guardian's Simon Tisdall. I chose to respond to Mr. Tisdall in the second person.

Dear Simon,

I have really tried to sort out your article, (it was not easy), and I am summarizing what I understood. Please let me know if I have misunderstood you.

Apart from the fact that you don’t seem to like Israel, you also don’t like the "discredited" Condoleezza Rice, the "sulky and myopic" George Bush (I guess that one is understandable otherwise you'd be very lonely at The Guardian), the "self-serving and useless" Tony Blair, the EU, the "floundering" Czechs who now occupy the EU presidency, and Obama. 

You dislike Condy, Bush. Blair, the EU, and the Czechs, I assume, because they have all been rather understanding of Israel, and Obama, you explain, because he has refused to get involved in the Gaza conflict despite the fact that during the past two years he has spoken out against Bush's policies many times (apparently you see no difference between a presidential candidate and the president elect). And now, you are warning us, some people in the Middle East (it sounds like you might mean Hamas and their supporters) and in Europe who previously liked Obama, don't like him anymore (would it be because it looks as if he too might support Israel?).

You seem to like Sarkozy, although you have labeled him "hyperactive with a tendency to hog the limelight", you love Turkey (who earlier this week strongly condemned Israel but forgot to mention Hamas) "who has played an important role as an intermediary" (wasn't that Egypt?) and you are now rooting for Turkey to be accepted into the EU, - they'd make "a great addition", and, oh yes, you also like the idea of applying pressure ("leaning") on Israel "the way it has never been done before" since Bush took office, and apparently you don't think it necessary to "lean" on anyone else.

You expect Syria "to get tough with Hamas" (don't hold your breath on that one, Simon), Fatah and Hamas to reconciliate thus "marginalizing Iran" (wow!!! that's going to be a truly great accomplishment), and you expect that "Hamas will put its weapons beyond use" (and here again, Simon, you really don't want to hold your breath).

You believe that the US and the EU must reverse their definition of Hamas as a terror organization - you don't say so specifically, but that would be necessary if you expect the US and the EU to speak directly to Hamas's leaders (and this would happen without Hamas rejecting their charter of terror, and without them accepting the three provisions set by the Quartet). Your reasoning is that the position of the EU and the US towards Hamas "encouraged Israel's blockade" and "provoked Hamas's violence" and somehow "made it harder to stop the fighting in Gaza."

You believe that as a result of the Gaza war "the Gaza fundamentals were not changed" (are you sure?), and that Israel's siege of Gaza must end (without any mention of how Hamas's arms smuggling will be stopped, so obviously Israel's main civilian centers will come under fire again later this year from even longer range rockets, after which war will break out in Gaza again.)

Finally, you are worried about the danger that Obama will "come blundering in" on inauguration day on Jan 20, "upsetting Sarkozy's delicately balanced apple carts". (So, once again those Americans seem to have elected a nincompoop.)

To be honest, Simon, I really don't think that I need to say anything more. It looks like you've really got this whole Gaza mess sorted out for us. Where were you up to now?

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1  |   Jay Goldberg, Illinois, USA, Thursday Jan 08, 2009
Simon Tisdall... Isn't he the Guardian's "Foreign affairs specialist". (?) So if Tisdall's their specialist, are we to assume that the others at the Guardian understand even less than him?
2  |   Fergus Robson Dublin, Ireland, Thursday Jan 08, 2009
THis response does not qualify as an argument or an analysis or anything really, instead of attempting(pathetically) to mock someone with an opposing viewpoint to yourself why do you not try to enunciate your own analysis of the situation, or is it as simple as ''its ok for israel to massacre an impoverished people, because we cannot find any other resolution to a destructive situation of our own making'', call me a jew hater if you feel like it but that is no way to conduct a rational argument because i have many jewish friends who abhor what is happening
3  |   David J Feiger USA, Thursday Jan 08, 2009
Hypocrisy, immorality, antisemitism motivated by a deep seated hate that blames the ills of the world on Jews, has supposed progressive leftists championing a theocratic, reactionary, racist, sadistic terror dehumanizing fascist movement that wishes to enslave secular Palestinian Arabs under Sharia Law.Egypt that put the blame for the situation on Gaza is ignored. Israel is the blood thirsty monster that killed 600 in 12 days!! Now Turkey is the true voice of hypocrisy.Turkey surely has set an example for Israel. Kurdistan is a free State. Christian Armenia is a free state of 2 mil corpses.
4  |   Gail Wainer - Harvard University, Thursday Jan 08, 2009
I want to reiterate Jay Goldberg's sentiments. Tell me Simon, why does the world suddenly become so concerned about the plight of Palestinians only when Israel is involved with defending itself against its enemies? Why have the refugee camps been allowed to linger for more than 30 years? Why not take the money, used to buy rockets to aim at Israel, to improve the lives of those living in Gaza? What I have trouble understanding is how the people of Gaza continue to support Hamas when it is so obvious that Hamas does not care whether they live or die? I think they're afraid they'll be killed.
5  |   Dagoberto Mensch, Thursday Jan 08, 2009
Even Shakespeare recognized that Jews bleed (The Merchant of Venice, Act III, scene I)- a right we, Jews, don´t have today, after so many Human Rights Declarations. And - as a prove of media objectivity: (There aren´t enough jews dead etc). In Brazil, the biggest network (Globo) said: "It´s 700 palestinians dead and only 11 israelis - that´s awful". And now, people talk crazy things like, why don´t Israel and Hamas terrorists talk? Sure, why didn´t we have this idea before? Because, you know, Jews hate talking and convincing others, right? THAT´S THE PROBLEM! Oh, man, you make me laugh.
6  |   Canadian, Thursday Jan 08, 2009
I don't think the problem is that Jews don't know how to talk, or convince others, they are more than capable of doing both. I think the problem consists on the love of SOME Jews of taking what does not belong to them (namely land) settling it, placing the original inhabitants of it in blockaded jails with no rights or hopes, and then engaging on trying to convince the world that those blockaded victims came out of nowhere and dislike them for no reason. I don't think the regular bombing of everyone and anyone in the way of the settlements helps either, to be honest.
7  |   Patty Cee, St. Pete, Florida, Friday Jan 09, 2009
I'd like to say, as a complete outsider, that if you could just pull back and see your situation from the point of view, say, of a visitor from another planet, you would ask yourself, When, then, will these people be safe? The answer, of course, is never. It seems to me Israel will never be safe. It would have happened already. You folks are in a very bad neighborhood. If human beings were truly rational, you folks would pack up all your monuments, brick by brick, your sand, your everything, and move Israel to a more pleasant part of the world, an island, say, and create paradise.
8  |   Joel - Philippines, Friday Jan 09, 2009
To Mr. Fergus Robson Dublin, wether one is giving an opinion, analysis or anything pertaining Israel and Hamas, there are only two sides of the coin to view, the fair side and the biased side of it. the subjective view and the objective view. Only the terrorists love killing and violence but anybody who is under threat should react to defend itsel. If Israel kills terrorist I think no crime is committed but if it kills an innocent civillian, difinitely crime is committed.
9  |   B, Jerusalem, Friday Jan 09, 2009
I agree that a lot of foreign media coverage of Israel/Palestine is slanted but I'm tired of listening to Israelis complain about the way they are being misrepresented abroad, while they accept the misrepresentation of the Gaza conflict that they swallow from their own media at home. Coverage within Israel is all about the rockets falling in the south with a few pictures of Israeli soldiers moving from building to building within Gaza. Numbers of civilian casualties in Gaza may appear on screen but with little discussion about them, and commentators talk as if all Gazans were Hamas members.
10  |   David Keong, Malaysia., Friday Jan 09, 2009
Mankind was created to conform to LOGIC. The just would choose the logic of life but the wicked would choose the logic of destruction and death. It is perverse logic that started this war. It is simple logic that tells us how this war can be ended. Stop firing the rockets, and we have a ceasefire. It is not about who is right or wrong and who wins or loses. If we love life obey the logic of life. Stop destroying others first, and then no one will destroy you. It is wrong to take sides but it is right to speak for the Truth. However, politicians today no longer speak or stand for Truth.
11  |   Former Belgian, Greater Tel-Aviv, Friday Jan 09, 2009
Talking to defuse tension may be productive. Talking to somebody sworn to your destruction, just so he can gain time to be better prepared, is counterproductive. "Those who are meek to the cruel will end up having been cruel to the meek."
12  |   Jeff Cokenour - USA, Friday Jan 09, 2009
If Mexico began launching rockets across the border into El-Paso, Texas, the United States would invade Mexico, take control of its government and establish military bases along its southern border. Israel allows two seperate, hostile groups to hold land within its own border! (Gaza and the West Bank). Terrorists from Saudi Arabia killed 3,000 of our people and we invaded and took control of two entire countries and still haven't caught the person responsible. We in the west should be very reticent to condemn Israel for defending itself against enemies who have vowed her destruction.
13  |   Gábor Fränkl Budapest, Hungary, Friday Jan 09, 2009
Fergus Robson, your Jewish friends are profoundly ignorant just the same way as you my friend. These are immensely complex problems you cannot know anything about reading the Irish Times. Besides, you are ignorant, you are also a biased unobjective antagonist of Israel. Hamas started this war, more than 7, I repeat for you S-E-V-E-N years ago. Your ciountry in comparison would have bombed the hell out of Norther I if rockets were fired from there on a daily basis after probably a week, let alone 7 years. So shut up! Hamas uses human shields and you - apparently - approve their bloddy tactics!
14  |   nurullah guzel, Friday Jan 09, 2009
i can understand that israel want to defend itself against the inhuman rocket attacks from hamas to innocent jewish families but i cant understand why you are so inhuman against innocent palestenian families if you are cons?dering what is done by hamas is unfair? dont you think that is a massive confliction? WHAT would you expect TURKEY to do for you? TO Back up your killing more people? WHETHER YOU like it or not TURKEY is cautiously watching what you are doing and also TURKEY is disagree with iran due to their encouraging hamas to launch rockets against innocent jewish families.
15  |   Daniel Beaudoin Herzliya, Saturday Jan 10, 2009
Response to #2 Fergus, I also have Palestinian colleagues who understand that Hamas, a fundementalist Iranian backed terror movement is holding the impoverished Palestinian pop. hostage in the G.S. Don't skirt this complex issue with myopic analysis: Hamas and anti-western Jihad is not the making of the Jews nor of Israel. Sorry, they have been around for centuries, and now they are using the populations as human shields to fire rockets at Israel. I am curious what you would have done in your comfortable armchair, in Dublin, behind your Guinness if a 1000 missiles had landed in your area?
16  |   Frederick, Saturday Jan 10, 2009
Well Fergus, you may or may not be a Jew-hater (only you know that) but 1. Israel is not massacring any impoverished people, they are fighting Hamas; 2. opposing viewpoints need to be responded to in any discussion. Should Belfast protestants ever have lobbed missiles into Dublin I rather doubt you'd approve your government to sit back and let it happen.
17  |   Masha, Boston USA, Saturday Jan 10, 2009
Fergus, there are plenty of jews who would rather see Israel dissolve itself to please the world opinion; I'm sure some of them live in Dublin and have you for a friend. I'd be wary of them as friends: next they might tell you that Ireland needs to reach accomodation with the hated British monarchy and then where would you be? Israel is not killing civilians because it aims to kill them but because Hamas hides behind them. If Israel does'n fire in response to a rocket from UN school - Hamas wins. If Israel fires & kills kids - Hamas wins: they can now parade dead babies for the world opinion.
18  |   Steve, USA, Saturday Jan 10, 2009
Holding Jews to impossible standards is anti-semitism, plane & simple. Hard as it is to say with suffering from Jewish arms, unfortunately, it is not disproportionate. War is a horrible thing. US vs. Taliban: estimated first 3 Months AT LEAST 4000 deaths of Civilians (~ 660 per 15 days). Jordan kicked out PLO in 1970, over 10,000 civilian deaths. In Iraq, 2007 - 4 years after war start, 67 avg. civilian deaths/day (Iraq Body Count) = 1005 per 15 days). Israel fighting Hamas-hiding behind civilians in most dense are of world - civilian death toll lower-why Fergus & Nurullah is Israel shamed?
19  |   Benjamin, California, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
Ah, yes. Fergus Robson in the Dublin (#2) -- you know, the one who doesn't hate Jews -- has "many Jewish friends" who abhor what is happening. Not that tired old cliche again... Fergus, what the are names of some of your many Jewish friends?
20  |   Allen J USA, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
Turkey confuses me... whose side are they on anyway? They are Israels ally...? They are the USA friend...? They are Muslims but not Arabs.. I read where Turkey Muslims hate Arabs as history proves...OTTOMANS for example. ! Now they condemn Israel for the Gaza adventure...but in realty Hamas would bomb Istanbul in a minute. Turkey also hates the poor Kurds who need their own land..proving how peaceable things are in Kurdistan (IRAQ)! And the Armenians ..how about that genocide. Turkey..make up your mind...you blew it in WW1. Rememebr the Kaisor!
21  |   Michael, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
For Gods chosen people Isreal certainly knows how to make hell on earth. You are sowing the seeds for a thousand years of war . If you put the hand of friendship to the Palestinian people and treated them the way you would like to be treated they would help you defeat Hamas without having to murder children . You are doing to the Palestinians what has been done to you for years it will never end.
22  |   seemit, delhi, india, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
Interesting that the world never noticed "civilian casualties" in Sri Lanka or "excessive force" on the part of the Sri Lankan government. I guess when the "victims" are Muslims, they are somehow more special...
23  |   Jon, UK, Sunday Jan 11, 2009
These articles written press are clearly suffering from a lack of history. Wars have been fought by ‘Western’ states for far less then defence, i.e. Iraq. What sovereignty was breeched, in order to warrant the invasion? The British in recent history have little to be proud of in their handling of decolonisation, mass murder, & appeasement policies towards some of the world’s leading mass-murdering dictators. The Press have failed to apply this sort of pressure towards the 1000 plus people who have died of cholera, why is this? This is a sign that the supposed power that the press has is merely superficial and does in fact only highlight the inadequacies of factual non-based media that is supposedly available.
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Point / Counterpoint A response to selected commentary about Israel in the world press, from an up-close observer of the Middle East for more than fifty years.

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