Sunday Apr 19, 2009

Modesty Blasé: Recession in a failing religious system

Posted by Modesty Blasé
Comments: 89
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In my real life, I am about to lose my job. Furious networking and frantic emailing have left me little time to write anything other than job applications and embellishments on my resumé (all job offers welcome). However, I have had a lot of time to think about what the recession means for Orthodox women, and how paid employment differentiates the role of women across various segments of the Orthodox community.

In the charedi community, especially in those sections where the men are in full-time learning, women are childbearing and bringing home the proverbial bacon. They generally have relatively low-paid jobs such as teachers, secretaries, beauty therapists or shop assistants that provide the basic infrastructure for a community to function. Rarely are they in business (unless it's sheitels [wigs] or housecoats) and even the recent Israeli initiatives to provide computer training and jobs found that many women were willing to take lower pay for working in an all-female work environment with flexible hours.

Men in full time learning, teaching in yeshivot or managing religious communal organizations have already started to feel the impact of the increasing numbers of American and European businessmen who can no longer afford to support these institutions across the Jewish world. Even in a good economic climate, most of these men have very few skills that would enable them to get a decent paying job outside the community. By minimizing the value of a secular education, their rabbis have failed to enable these men to provide adequately for their families and have perpetuated their dependency on the tzedakah [charity] of  their neighbours (or in England, on the munificence of the welfare state).

The better-educated and savvy women in the charedi community are going to manage this recession by taking second jobs or piecemeal work, while the single working women in the charedi community with no husband or children to support are going to be the most financially secure. Is it too optimistic to think that this economic crisis will force rabbis and educators to re-evaluate the sort of life skills and training they are giving their young boys?

In the modern Orthodox community, there isn't a minyan where a man hasn't lost his job - bankers, lawyers, computer specialists and accountants  have had their role as family provider snatched from under their tallis [prayer shawl], leaving many of them feeling emasculated and depressed. For women, the implications of the recession are still evolving - while a few women complained that their husbands had cancelled this year's Pesach holiday to a five-star resort at the Dead Sea, most are being much more careful about what goes in the their shopping trolley. Mothers are distraught as they start cutting back on extra-curricular activities for their children - ju-jitsu, folk guitar and tap dancing are under threat, and in a community that heavily guards the phone number of a good Polish cleaner, a few have taken to cleaning their own bathrooms and ironing their own husband's shirts.

Many of these women are highly-educated professionals who can afford to be full time homemakers while others are underemployed in mildly interesting jobs for a couple of days a week with their earnings reserved for little treats. After relying on their husbands for years, are these women willing to work full-time to support their families? More significantly, after so many years out of the work force, do they have the requisite skills and confidence to find the increasingly scarce jobs that are out there? When things get tough, what sort of role-modelling will these couples provide for their children? Will young girls finally realise that they need to train for careers with serious financial rewards so that they can support themselves in the future?

There is of course the other group of single, divorced or married women who are already working full time, often as the sole breadwinners in their family or as part of couple where two middling incomes are needed to create one almost decent Jewish salary that will enable them to live in the Jewish area, eat overpriced kosher food and send their kids to summer camp. For these women, it's business as usual, juggling work and home, with the sceptre of redundancy hanging over their heads, even though fortunately, many are in teaching, nursing, local council and other public sector jobs where there is greater job security. 

Rabbis in every community are tackling the economic crisis according to their community's need - it might be facilitating introductions to potential employers, setting up a discrete emergency fund, calling for simpler simchas or providing some spiritual sustenance during these challenging times. There is much talk of lowering expectations, especially amongst children, and recognising this crisis as a corrective for previous greed and excess (which is extremely annoying as those struggling the most are not those who created nor benefited from this excess or greed).

In what might appear to be unrelated, there is also increasing concern about the number of young people who are going 'off the derech,' and rejecting the Orthodoxy of their parents. Some are motivated by the poverty of their own families and want to escape the inevitable consequences of a poor education and limited contact with the secular world. It strikes me that the fallout from the religious system is less about the big theological questions and more about overcoming deprivation. As long as desire, and not doubt, continues to fuel religious disquiet, the recession will only exacerbate the feelings of hopelessness and cynicism in a failing religious system. And if anyone tries to tell me that the recession is due to the immodest dress of women... well, I may just have to throw my sheitel to the wind.  

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1  |   Marsha Brooklyn, Sunday Apr 19, 2009
A generation ago the majority of men worked to provide for their families - that did not mean that they stopped learning - they just did not do it as an occupation. Yeshiva boys regularly went to college at night to be able to join the worki force. How and when this change occurred that it became a "boosha" to leave Yeshiva to work or to get a secular education and took over our whole generation leaves many of us dumbfounded. We were not raised in this but yet our children are the products of it. Don't get me wrong learning is a beautiful thing but if "ein kemach ein torah" -
2  |   Orthodox man, east coast US, Sunday Apr 19, 2009
Well written and accurate. Message is important. My wife is a highly paid professional and i run a business; after spending Pesach in Brooklyn we agree that all previous assumptions are off. Need good leadership from the rabbis now. Young men expecting to hang about in kollel while their wife works are in dream land. They need to be men, act like men, support their family, behave responsibly.
3  |   nada, TA, Sunday Apr 19, 2009
these so-called men in so-called "full time learning" would actually learn a lot more about the tenets of religion if they got off their ass and practiced what they had read
4  |   tooclose2detroit oak park michigan, Sunday Apr 19, 2009
shaitel to the wind???????
5  |   tooclose2detroit, Sunday Apr 19, 2009
There are prolems-there are really big problems-but there have always been really big problems-in europe, in america, and they need to be addressed-but i am so tryly dissapointed by the writers final comments regarding her potential future plans for her shaitel-although, if it comes to that, throw it my direction-my wife could use a new shaitel-to flippantly reject the role of potential lackings in tzniyus, as a contributing factor in the prolems the Jewish people shows me that, perhaps, her physically tossing her shaitel would just be the conclusion of an act which has already taken place.
6  |   Joe Bloom, Sunday Apr 19, 2009
Full time learning? yeh right -- lazy men
7  |   Jewish grandmother - Israel, Sunday Apr 19, 2009
All Jewish weddings include the signing of a Ketuba in which the new husband right at the beginning undertakes to support his new wife. A man who studies full time and lets his wife struggle with providing the family parnassa in the middle of undertaking childbearing and domestic labour is breaking the commitment he made publicly under the Hupa. Why has nobody in the frum community noticed this travesty?
8  |   Rnaud, Po America, Sunday Apr 19, 2009
4 & 5 re: Shaitel... Ever hear of a tichel? Cheaper& lighter than a shaitel. In addition, blaming the worlds recession on the immodesty of women presupposes that the accusers absolutely know the Creators will. I don't think so! Perhaps it is the will of the Diety that men fulfill the biblical dictums to WORK 6 days a week and supporting their wives. Perhaps the recession is an incentive to "return the crown of the breadwinner to its past splendor" in the spirit that "Torah is good with Derech Erets (an occupation)"?? Help society and get your wife a tsnius economical tichel, not a handout.
9  |   Joseph, New York City, USA, Sunday Apr 19, 2009
I was raised secular and spent time in the Orthodox community in college. Growing up, my parent's two income lifestyle was the norm. Both my parents faced job losses at different times over the years, but we could always manage, because at least one of them would be employed at any given time. I can understand how it makes sense to have a parent in the home when there are so many children to look after. Perhaps both the mother and father should pursue felexible careers and share homemaking. That gives the economic security benefits of two incomes with the practical benefits of a house spouse.
10  |   Abe, Sunday Apr 19, 2009
I had a son in Israel for over 10 years with his mother my ex attending yeshiva for the past 6 years there..The kid realized that he needed to get a skill inorder to live. He was tired of seeing married men goto the yeshiva dinining hall taking snitzels in their pockets for their families. It freaked him out and so he return to his working dad in frozen Canada to learn how to work..Oh he learned very very quickly..In frozen Canada, where its a cold country with cold people. You work or you steal or you're on welfare..The jails are full and the inmates dont have gemarah classes. He got the idea
11  |   Frugal Ortho Renovator in Atlanta., Sunday Apr 19, 2009
Last summer, I hired two 10th grade level young men from the community to assist with renovation tasks in a house. They are graduates of the local torah primary and middle school. I was happy to put wages back into the community. They were unskilled and were paid "a man's wage" for excellent work. These two -- both returnees this year I hope -- attend the local ortho Jewish high school (mixed genders). So far, I have been unable to recruit any of their fellow graduates from that torah day school who went on to attend at the local yeshiva. Too bad.
12  |   Nani, Jerusalem, Monday Apr 20, 2009
When I grow up, I want ot be a professional tzadik. When asked to fill in "occupation" on official forms, I will write "Kadosh". I will only buy eggs from henhouses, that have a masgiach who will certify that the hen has been chased away before the eggs are collected... Somehow, we have become technocratic simpletons, turning pages like brainless bureaucrats.
13  |   Atlanta -- Frugal Renovator, Monday Apr 20, 2009
From May 2009 HARPER'S: Rank of the Hasidic community of Kiryas Joel, NY among the poorest municipalities in the United States: 1st. Percentage of its residents who live below the poverty line: 68%.
14  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Monday Apr 20, 2009
Dear Modesty, Good luck with finding a new job-- who among us doesn't have that concern? I'm sure that Mr. Modesty appreciates that you are a full partner in the financial life of your family. You're on target with your post, as usual; for an excellent blog on the specific issue of financial practices and expectations in the Jewish world, you might enjoy looking at: [ Link to page ] /. Shalom
15  |   dov epstein Efrat, Monday Apr 20, 2009
Okay , I spent 18 years in Kollel, learning,etc, and getting ordination. The cult of learning is two-edged. It provides a raison d'etre for the kollels, to propagate that dynamic, and it provides a source of income for the heads. I once heard the son of our kollel head say to another member, that the way to make your own steady income was to start a kollel, and bring in kids from America. (i'm writing from Israel).Being a member of a community of kollel members is very enticing. There's so much camaraderie, and group love that you'd never want to leave it. Pure economics are going to end this.
16  |   Shlomo Silverstein, Maale Adumim, Monday Apr 20, 2009
Immodesty Blasé writes "cynicism in a failing religious system"? Her cynicism was well established during times of plenty. She measures the religious response by what the Rabbi says. How pathetic. It shows she really has no idea. The heart of Torah Judaism is in the strength and closeness of the community, not the Rabbi.
17  |   Shlomo Silverstein, Maale Adumim, Monday Apr 20, 2009
The North London "orthodox" community always was a loose collection of snobbish, more English than the English, overindulgent and selfish people. Volvos, Expensive sheitals and Italian suits don’t make a Torah kehillah. Befriending and taking a sincere interest in others within the community, irrespective of social position or income, caring for others less fortunate in the community, welcoming and inviting strangers and visitors to your community, all these things produces a less selfish and cynical society and encourages Torah values.
18  |   Shlomo Silverstein, Maale Adumim, Monday Apr 20, 2009
When a man loses his job it is all too easy to stop going to the regular early minyan and instead to start getting up later and later. Then one starts to feel sorry for oneself. His wife, under stress from the sudden lack of financial income and the shame of loss of social standing, turns on the husband instead of giving him love, understanding and support. This leads to, as the author writes a lowering of self esteem.
19  |   Shlomo Silverstein, Maale Adumim, Monday Apr 20, 2009
In our community there are morning and afternoon shiurim. Those who were always too busy working to really sit and learn, now have time for some spiritual nourishment. This raises ones self worth. Others find that they really make very good teachers. Many have the kind of skills that enable them to do private jobs within the community. In a community where Torah learning, Chesed and Derech Eretz are most highly prized, there are always opportunities but a community where wealth and social standing are envied, the fall is hard indeed. (Scene: Slow motion close up of sheital hitting the dust…)
20  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Monday Apr 20, 2009
Re Shlomo #16 & 17: "The heart of Torah Judaism is in the strength and closeness of the community, not the Rabbi." & "The North London "orthodox" community always was a loose collection of snobbish..." Perhaps if you paid some attention to what you read, you would have noticed that those are among the points that Modesty has been making, in a far more elegant way. Also, thank you for demonstrating your 'Derech Eretz' in calling her names--what an excellent way to show how Chesed works.
21  |   nuchem, Monday Apr 20, 2009
I admire the Hareidim who settle for very little. They take good care of their own what with Gemachim etc. On the other hand the Israel ashkenazim hareidim only have this built-in dogma that an apartment must be bought for the young couple or no marriage and the bride's parents must put up two thirds. Their rabbis must be reigned in and not allowed to get away with everything they please. They openly declare they're interested in government monies only when it comes to politics.
22  |   Maverick US, Monday Apr 20, 2009
Have you heard of the Amish, the Menonites and the Breuderhof? They share their resources as communities formed by their religious beliefs. They certainly have little to do with Judaism but their example, inspired by our common Judeo-Christian heritage, may serve as a paradigm for these hard tmes. Working common lands for its produce and barn raisings that are a community affair remind one of the importance of mutual aid. Pool your resources together and barter for goods rather than rely exclusively on money as part of the solution. It is not about employment but community building.
23  |   Maverick US, Monday Apr 20, 2009
My point is that communities can strive for self- sufficiency without becoming dependent on the government dole. Farmers have worked the commons successfully for thousands of years. Families can pool their resources to form revolving credit societies to fund construction of homes and even invest in farm machinery. The possession of dunams or acres of arable land is the best insurance against malnutrition. This has nothing to do with maintaining a monoculture (cash crop) on hectares of land for export such as in citrus fruits but sustaining family homesteads through subsistance farming.
24  |   Maverick US, Monday Apr 20, 2009
To Shlomo # 17 You write, "caring for others less fortunate..." In a real community, no one should be more or less fortunate since resources and skills are pooled together for the benefit of all. The notion of charity is one that derogates individuals and families into the status of receiver and of one who is "less fortunate" and therfore in disgrace. Rabbis handing envelopes with money to individuals discretely to spare embarassment as if there is any shame in requiring sustenance rub salt into the wound.
25  |   Maverick US, Monday Apr 20, 2009
To #19 Shlomo, Here, your point is well taken. Communities must provide opportunities for their members to contribute their value and not rely exclusively on the outer world (i.e., the monetary and credit driven economy) for their sustinence. But when the skill is lacking perhaps it should be the priority of the community to teach a man how to fish.
26  |   Avrohom - Israel, Monday Apr 20, 2009
nada, #3, you have a lot of hatred for a nada. You also have no idea about what you write. These are not "so-called men", they are actual people. Next, your misunderstanding about "so-called 'full time learning'" is clear. You must mean Jews who study Torah as Torah obligates them. By defintion these people are adhering to the exact obligation from Torah as it applies th o them. You say theu would learn more about "the tenets of religion if they got off their ass and practiced what they had read". You do not know the meaning of the 'tenet', nor would they 'learn' more by actions.
27  |   Atlanta -- Frugal renovator, Monday Apr 20, 2009
I am reminded of a family I know in Canada. Zehdy, went from Jo'berg to Canada with nothing but his secular & Torah education and founded a successful business which paid for his house and the houses of his sons in a posh area. #1 son is outreach rabbi. #2 works in the business. #3 is a bocher. Zehdy's grandsons -- now in their teens -- daven yeshivish and appear to know little math, science and have little interest / ambition in learning anything of economic value in the wider world. So -- what happens when Zehdy (in his 70's, may he live to 120) passes? Rags to riches to rags?
28  |   David Manchester, Monday Apr 20, 2009
When the world is in economic crisis, the Jews are blamed, and the "modern orthodox" Jews blame the Chareidim and Rabbis. Why is everyone all of a sudden so worried about how the charedim will manage to earn a living. They don't need your worries, they have Bitochon that Hashem provides irrespective of qualifications (often earned at a heavy spiritual cost). At least if they don't have a job they have the skills to sit and learn making their wives and families proud as opposed to "emasculated and depressed" and "distraught"
29  |   It's my life and i'll learn if i want to!, Monday Apr 20, 2009
I went to work 30 yrs ago to support my husband who learns fulltime, as do my children-Yes, there is an economic meltdown - but I don't think their learning is what causes the hard times- remember, it is a privilege to support this way of life - they do more for the world then any workers do for them! Ultimately G-d distributes the wealth- and the 'learners' are much more willing to tighten their belts and live economically- then the sophisticated work force - lazy?no way!-I live here-I see it-&more than 600 words are needed to describe the beauty & sacrifice of these talmudic scholars lives!
30  |   Jason, Tuesday Apr 21, 2009
Avrohom (26), I appreciate nada's sentiments. The Torah also instructs us (or at the very least acknowledges) that men and women should work for 6 days a week, not simply learn Torah all week long and expect to be supported by society at large. We dont need more kollelim and yeshivot at this time, we need more people leading productive lives so as to alleviate the poverty that characterizes much of Charedi society today.
31  |   yehudi, Tuesday Apr 21, 2009
read: eretz yisrael in the parashah of the week (devora publishing) to explain the reasons for this economic situation
32  |   Chaya Gilburt - Brasil, Tuesday Apr 21, 2009
I am all for creating more women-only Orthodox colleges (Stern just is not segregated enough to interest most Charedi families) to give religious women a fighting chance.
33  |   Avrohom - Israel, Tuesday Apr 21, 2009
Jason, actually Torah does no such thing. It does not instruct us to abandon learning Torah excpet where required. That requirement is applicable on days other than Shabbat. There is nothing in Torah that claims or instructs that the best way to go through life is by working 6 days a week. Of course we need more kollels and more yeshivot. There are millions of Jews with no connection to Judaism, Torah and their obligations in this world. The truth is each person needs to find their place in Torah. To claim that one learns more at work than while learning is foolish.
34  |   Jason, Tuesday Apr 21, 2009
Avrohom (33), the Torah instructs us in Vayikra 23: "Six days shall work be done; but on the seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest". Are you now suggesting that work was never contemplated by God? Its right in the text, black and white, pashut peshat! The "millions of Jews" without a connection to Judaism" will not get closer to Judaism by increasing the number of kollelim and yeshivot. To the contrary, this is a chillul hashem of the greatest magnitude.
35  |   Avrohom - Israel, Wednesday Apr 22, 2009
Jason, if you think that the directive is to work 6 days you really need to go learn Torah from some authentic Rabbanim. Torah allows for work six days & prohibits it on Shabbat - the prohibition is the meaning of the pasuk you quoted. Not one single gadol ever listed as one the mitzvot in Torah that we are commanded to work 6 days. You make up what you want Torah to say. Even if the majority of Jews are not worthy of learning all day every day, for whatever reason, Torah never commands us to work 6 days. This is pashut pashat and supported by all Rabbanim. Ashreiunu for kollels & yeshivos!
36  |   Avrohom - Israel, Wednesday Apr 22, 2009
Jason, if you think that the directive is to work 6 days you really need to go learn Torah from some authentic Rabbanim. Torah allows for work six days & prohibits it on Shabbat - the prohibition is the meaning of the pasuk you quoted. Not one single gadol ever listed as one the mitzvot in Torah that we are commanded to work 6 days. You make up what you want Torah to say. Even if the majority of Jews are not worthy of learning all day every day, for whatever reason, Torah never commands us to work 6 days. This is pashut pashat and supported by all Rabbanim. Ashreiunu for kollels & yeshivos!
37  |   Jason, Thursday Apr 23, 2009
Avrohom (36), blah, blah, blah, blah. The plain peshat is as it is written. If you cant see it, then you are blind and fooling yourself. I was just reading up on the Rivash, i.e., Isaac ben Sheshet Perfet (1326 – 1408) (???? ?? ???) , ya know, a great talmudic authority. He earned a livlihood until later in his life. Look at all of the tannaim and amoraim that worked for a living. But, no! You and yours believe that you need not work and that God has instructed to learn all day and solicit financial support from other hard working people. This is disgraceful, an utter shame!
38  |   Avrohom - Israel, Sunday Apr 26, 2009
Jason, you do not know what plain peshat means. Nowhere in Torah is man commanded to work 6 days. I feel sorry for you that you spend so much time making up your own Torah when Hashem already created the wrold from the real Torah and you choose to ignore it. You try to bring proof that we are commanded to work 6 days form incidents where people worked. You have misunderstood the entire discussion because you choose not to listen. Is this a world where people work. Yes. Is man commended to work, no. You cannot find a Torah Rav who lists working as a commandment. You re simply wrong.
39  |   Jason, Sunday Apr 26, 2009
Avrohom, you have it all backwards. "Incidents where people worked"?! This was always the norm. God need not oblige man to work, because it is a given for most people, save and except for such "frum" people like you, who believe that God thinks kindly of you leading unproductive and parasitic lives by learning all day long and not giving back to the communities in which you live. "Sheshet yamin taavod veasita kol melachtecha". I guess this means that one should check one's mezuzah twice every seven years?!
40  |   Daniel, Monday Apr 27, 2009
Jason, I see you are back. But, I can't believe you are recycling the same worn out comments from your Marmur days. What an obsession! You didn't answer me then, perhaps now you can. According to you, if a person is rich and has no need to work, does he desecrate this commandment? What about the college and medical student who only studies with no work? Has he descrated this commandment? And please explain according to your comments, is retirement forbidden in the torah? THOU SHALT WORK, after all.....heh?
41  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, Monday Apr 27, 2009
To Jason and Avrohom: Wouldn't it be fair to say that the truth is somewhere in between your posted positions? While 'sheshet yamim ta'avod' has traditionally been understood to mean 'avodat Hashem' (if memory serves) so 'work' is not a mitzvah-- the norm HAS always been for almost everyone to work for a living, including the times of the writing of the Talmud. Therefore, the idea that society has gotten so bad that widespread full time learning is necessaary is a recent innovation--we can disagree on whether it's a good or bad one, but it IS a recent innovations--no? Shalom
42  |   Daniel, Monday Apr 27, 2009
Shalom, IMelacha is defined as a constructive act which is defined as 39 melachot that were done to erect the tabernacle. Chazal only discuss the great value of work which saves one from sin, tikun olam, etc....People learning full time has been around forever. Started with Jews coming out of mitzrayim with the man, Chazal end of kidushin "I will only teach my son Torah" etc..., Rambam end of hil. smitah veyovel. Both paths are correct and both are valid. The truth is somewhere in between and that's what the Torah world which has both espouses.
43  |   Jason, Monday Apr 27, 2009
Daniel (40). I will "recycle" my arguments for so long as there are batlanim who think that they are entitled to lead unproductive lives and expect others to pay for them and in the case of Israel, to fight for them. I canot tell you how many letters I recieve daily from yeshivot and kollelim seeking funds. This is a disgrace. As for your hypotheticals, i dont honestly know the answer to your questions. But God clearly envisioned a world where people worked, even were this not a clear injuction to do so. The kollel system is a profound departure from reality and our historical tradition.
44  |   Jason, Monday Apr 27, 2009
Shalom (41), you are certainly a rodef shalom, your name is well suited for you. The truth need not always be a middle position. If you believe in earnest that 'sheshet yamim ta'avod' has traditionally been understood to mean 'avodat Hashem', then you have respectfully speaking been reading too much Artscroll. :) My proof? It is simply illogical. Why would God ask us to serve God for 6 days and then rest on the seventh? Rest from what? Avodat Hashem?! It certainly is a recent innovation. The European yeshivot, for instance, were few and far between and designed for the best & brightest.
45  |   Daniel, Tuesday Apr 28, 2009
Jason 43 - I appreciate your honesty that this is not the true explanation of the Torah. As for us leading unproductive lives, that is your opinion. Unfortunately for you, Chazal teach us differently. I have been in the system for over 25 years with great sacrifice. If you doubt my intentions and those of my colleagues and you believe us to be lazy, you are entitled. But before you pass judgment on tens of thousands of students who toil in Torah day and night, please let me give you a tour of Lakewood - and then preach to us about laziness. Invitation open to all !!!
46  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, Tuesday Apr 28, 2009
Hi, Daniel, My point is that however you want to understand 'avodah', certainly almost all of the Rabbis of the Talmud, as well as everyone else, worked in order to support themselves. You cited the Rambam--for a few years his brother supported him, then for most of his adult life he worked and wrote his commentaries around that work. Shalom
47  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, Tuesday Apr 28, 2009
Hi, Jason, I'd say that the pshat seems to be that you will work the other 6 days (not a command, just an acknowledgement of how the world works for 99.99% of us) and on Shabbat will refrain from all melacha. As Daniel points out, I don't think Hashem is commanding a retired person to keep on working. I think that one can understand it to also mean that if your work is 'avodat Hashem', you will stop the aspects of it that are melacha on Shabbat--like you won't drive to the Beit Midrash as you would on Sunday. Best wishes, Shalom
48  |   Daniel, Tuesday Apr 28, 2009
Shalom, some of the Rabbis of the Talmud worked inorder to enable themselves to learn. If they had other means of support, they would have learned. We work to live - not live to work. Again, nobody said NOT to work. Most Kollel men have alternate means and eventually all work in some way. It is a system made for those who can handle it so that they can continue their studies and gain knowledge of the Torah. It's simple is that ! I don't see what the fuss is about! See Rambam end of shmita veyovel regarding the kollel system!
49  |   Daniel, Tuesday Apr 28, 2009
Jason and Shalom -consider this: There are about 16,000,000 Jews in the world with less than 20,000 learning (roughly). That's .00125% of population! Why criticize this tiny minority who are ready to sacrifice their lives and dedicate themselves to Torah? After all, they will be the Pulpit Rabbis, the shochtim, the mohelim, the sofrim, the teachers, educators, authors, mashgichim, etc etc etc....and everything else you take for granted today for the rest of the 99.999% of world Jewry. Without us, you would have a Jewish society devoid of religion.
50  |   Jason, Tuesday Apr 28, 2009
Shalom (47), of course Shalom, you could interpret this injunction as you suggest, but why pray tell would the first part of the pasuk/pesukim be an acknowledgment while the latter (lo taasu melacha), an obligation? This seems like an odd interpretation, respectfully speaking.
51  |   Jason, Tuesday Apr 28, 2009
Daniel (45), you argue that my interpretation is not "true". How self serving dont you think? Of course you and your Roshei Yeshivot will do whatever it thinks necessary to help justify the existing untenable structure. That is why we Jews have been blessed by a written text in addition to the oral law. It is designed to keep us honest. Your colleagues "toil day and night"?! What a joke. I would love to sit day and night learning Torah, but then reality hits. Tuition fees., food, mortgage payments. This is reality. You and yours however live in a fantasy world not worthy of praise.
52  |   Daniel, Tuesday Apr 28, 2009
Jason 51 - You yourself admitted that you have no answers to your interpertation. I seriously thought you saw how silly your interpertation is. As for you, you have proven that you don't accept the oral or written law so there is no sense in arguing with you to the true meaning of the text which is meaningless to you - as it has no meaning to Sacks and Marmur. Btw, I learn in kollel and I pay my taxes, tuition, mortgage, etc...like everyone else. SURPRISE ! What do you think? We don't have bills? What a really silly comment. Your losing it, Jason. No challenge whatsover !
53  |   Jason, Wednesday Apr 29, 2009
Daniel (52), just because I did not wish to respond to your challenges to my interpretation does not mean that i have no responses. I simply dont enjoy the pilpulistic arguments that you engage in. They bore me. But if you wish, here is my reply. One could easily argue that a wealthy person or retiree need engage in work as well, as being idle inevitably leads to sin. As for a student, I would argue that the need to work would be suspended for the period of time that s/he is studying, as the end result and goal is to engage in work. So many kollel men dont pay taxes & live on food stamps.
54  |   Jason, Wednesday Apr 29, 2009
Damiel (52), you argue that the meaning of the text is meaningless to me simply because i dont agree with your interpretation of the text. How conveinent an argument! Its either my way or the highway as they say. Lehepech, i have more respect for the text than you do.
55  |   Jason, Wednesday Apr 29, 2009
Daniel (52), one final point. You really need to get out a bit more often. Listen to the ordinary Jew on the street (from fully educated Jewishly to minimally connected). From my experience, which is quite extensive, they have very little respect for what you and your colleagues are doing. You could try to employ all kinds of pilpulistic interpretations to justify your existence, but at the end of the day, you are perceived as living a pariah-like existence. You are a chilul hashem and you and your so called leaders will one day be held accountable for this treachery.
56  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, Thursday Apr 30, 2009
Hi, Daniel, It seems to me that in Israel the Dati Leumi produce many people who serve in the army, learn for a time, and then work as Rabbis and so on. In the US, most Modern Orthodox follow market principals and after college, go into professions that pay more. If the Chareidi didn't teach and otherwise work for so little, then the financial model would change, and pay would be higher, and more MO would go into it. Best Wishes, Shalom
57  |   Jason, Thursday Apr 30, 2009
Daniel (49): "Without us, you would have a Jewish society devoid of religion." Rubbish! We would have a Jewish society that is more adaptable to the modern world, a society in which Jews make an even greater, appreciable contribution to the World, not to some esoteric gemorrah that has no relevance to how we lead our lives today. We need a Judaism that is not misogynistic, intolerant of others, ethnocentric and uncritical of itself. Your Judaism only speaks to a very small percentage of the Jewish people and while that may be fine, please don’t assume that yours is the only or right way.
58  |   Avrohom - Israel, Thursday Apr 30, 2009
Jason #57, without halacha, your Judaism is not Judaism.
59  |   Daniel, Thursday Apr 30, 2009
Jason 5 3 - Wow what a change of heart. You first write #43 "i dont honestly know the answer to your questions". than you write #53 "just because I did not wish to respond to your challenges etc does not mean that i have no responses". Which is it? When you decide, let me know and I will respond further. Thank goodness for honesty.....
60  |   Daniel, Thursday Apr 30, 2009
Jason 54 - You have stated on many occassions that you do not believe in the written law (reader, please see Marmur's blog over the past year and a half - enjoy). Now you claim that you have more respect for the written text !!! Which is it, Jason? Or are you waffling on this one as you did in #43 and #53 above? Do you believe in the written torah yes or no ? The audience is waiting !
61  |   Daniel, Thursday Apr 30, 2009
Jason 55 - The hatred displayed by some of them is borne out of sheer ignorance of who we are and what we are all about. I challenge all Jewish brothers to come to my house for shabbos, let me explain to them all of the above and then let them tell me how much they hate me. Let me give them a tour of Lakewood which houses the biggest Yeshiva in the world and then let them tell me how lazy we are. As Morty Zuckerman said after spending a day in Lakewood, "What we do in Harvard is kids play compared to what you guys do here!" I can be reached for above invitation at SHIVISI AT YESHIVANET.COM
62  |   Daniel, Thursday Apr 30, 2009
Jason 57 - To what Jewish contributions to you allude to? Science? Agriculture etc..? That's all great, no doubt. But, I am discussing a society "devoid of religion" which is really what modern day secular Israeli society is all about! Decadant and falling apart ! Read Jpost everyday and reap the fruits of your dreams, Jason. Read about the crime, the drugs, the rapes, murder, faliling schools, failing families etc...Enjoy it, Jason. Your dream has come true....When are you moving?
63  |   Jason, Thursday Apr 30, 2009
Daniel, I think you amuse yourself, because I am sure that you are not convincing anyone who is not already charedi (read brainwashed) viewing this site. Simply "come on over to my house for shabbas". How lovely, you have a nice shabbas table, beautiful zemiros, an appetizing cholent, that should convince an intellectually minded person! In fact, i know of some Buddhists and Hindus who similarly have lovely dinners at their homes, perhaps you should visit them and see for yourself just what you are in fact missing. I see no crime, murders, falling schools & families in my neighbourhood.
64  |   Jason, Friday May 01, 2009
Avrohom (58), who said that i dont respect halacha?!