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Monday Nov 10, 2008
Modesty Blasé: Promoting promiscuity? Posted by Modesty Blasé
Comments: 138
The perils of public transport are too much to bear for some of the delicate flowers of northwest London. Golders Green and Hendon have a seedy side and many anxious parents insist on driving their daughters to and from school to shield them from the sort of people they are likely to meet on the bus en route to one of the religious schools in the area. I have a different approach - stick our kids on the bus and let them see how the other half lives: girls with skirts up to their pupik [belly button], with pallid skin and multiple earlobe piercings, smoking nervously and looking pathetic hanging onto the shirttails of smelly, gangly and pimply boys. This has to be the most effective antidote to any frum girl's aspirations to be 'normal.' There is a climate of fear about teenage girls. Media reports suggest that girl gangs take pleasure in gratuitous violence and target defenceless victims. We don't know what to do about the young girls drinking alcohol to excess and starving themselves to death. The crowds will part in a shopping mall to let a group of prowling girls pass by. I know as I have done it myself - they can be very intimidating, even though underneath it all, they just want a young man to love them and look after them. This is why the UK has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in western Europe. One of the obvious implications of multiple sexual partners is the increased chances of sexually transmitted diseases, and recent news that the HPV (human papillomavirus) vaccination, designed to protect against 'the commonest causes of cervical cancer,' will soon be available to 12 and 13 year olds has confused religious parents. The government sponsored brochure explains that the
Community responses has varied: doctor-mothers have not blinked an eyelid and are signing the parental consent form without hesitation while fathers who don't like the innuendo implying that their religious daughters are sleeping around are wavering before signing on the dotted line. Most parents seem to have taken the 'better safe than sorry' route of agreeing to have their daughters vaccinated while in the same breath have expressed a wish that the Jewish schools would take more of an interest in coping with breast cancer and educating young women about proper self-checking as they get older. In the Jewish Tribune, one of the weekly charedi newspapers, a news article on the 30th October explained the vaccination and cited support by key members of the community including a prominent rabbi and a frum doctor. However, in this week's edition (6th November) the Office of the Rabbinate of the Union of Hebrew Orthodox Congregations issued a large advertisement saying that
Have the Rabbis advocated anything? Would it be too much to ask that they advocate seeking a medical opinion? This ambiguous proclamation, without citing medical evidence or consultation, is irresponsible and places families guided by rabbinical authority in an invidious position. The implicit message is that if parents allow their daughters to have these vaccinations, they are suggesting that their young maideles could be promiscuous and we, as a community, are condoning behaviour that is contrary to a religious lifestyle. This approach is so naive and endemic of the "hush hush" approach to relationships and a denial of the changing social mores that are trickling through to every part of the religious community. There will always be unblemished boys and girls from good families who will marry very young, however, there are sexual diseases in the religious community acquired in a number of unsavoury ways and we have a responsibility to the young girls of the community to protect them. The percentage of people affected may be much smaller than in the general community, but how can these medically unqualified leaders who intimidate their community into avoiding this vaccination carry the burden of potentially contributing to an unnecessary and devastating illness in the future? Check out Modesty's new blog: www.modestyblase.com where you can read more snippets and hear an occassional word from Mr. Blasé.
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Moshe,
Tuesday Nov 11, 2008
Thank you Rabbi Modesty Blase for your (worthless) opinion.....
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Rachel in Israel,
Tuesday Nov 11, 2008
Long ago the rabbi's ruled that single girls don't go to the mikvah even though that meant Karet (worse than HPV) for teens who sleep around. Gueass they should have consulted with modesty (not(.
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Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ,
Tuesday Nov 11, 2008
To Moshe, It's wonderful to see that the time that you spent doing tshuvah during the past Yamim Nora'im was so well spent. Clearly, you have internalized the concepts of 'dan lekaf zechut' and 've'ahavta le'reyacha ka'mocha' to such a degree that no one will be telling stories of the Chafetz Chaim; rather, we will all be looking at you for guidance in how to show kindness to others and humility. Yashar Koach! Shalom
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David, Manchester,
Tuesday Nov 11, 2008
Why do you call yourself Modesty. You should change your title to Arrogance. Who do you think you are to criticize the Rabbis. Why do you think your opinion is better than theirs. Jews through the ages have taken guidance from their Rabbis and accepted that they know better than the man in the street. You behave like a small child who critizes their parents because they don't know what they are talking about believing that parents know nothing. Also, taking up Shalom's post, why aren't you dan lekaf zechus that they have consulted extensively on the matter before making their views known.
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David, Manchester,
Tuesday Nov 11, 2008
Incidentally, children do not see the side of things that you see in the goyim on the bus. They only see the glamour and the care free life style which they seek to copy. That is what the whole world chases, although it is obvious to the thinking person that it is all emptiness. If most of the world is fooled by the glamour, how can you expect children to see through the veil.
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Jason,
Tuesday Nov 11, 2008
Modesty, please don't think that the Moshes and Davids of the world are representative of your readership. I am hopeful that they are not, for they are utterly hopeless and a true chillul hashem. Kudos to you for a post brilliantly crafted and a point very well taken. Some Charedim have adopted the untenable view that their gedolim cannot err. This Catholic-like notion is wholly inconsistent with our Mesorah and with all the historical evidence before us. Keep up the great work!
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Chaia, Israel, London,
Tuesday Nov 11, 2008
As an educator teaching Charedi girls I have dealt with many heartrending events. Many girls, get groped and molested, and WORSE, before age 12 or 13! I want to emphasize that these are very frum good girls who did not go searching for trouble and their parents and their schools try as much as they can to protect them. I'm all for driving your daughter to school, and keeping a close watch, but also be aware that these incidents are increasing in number and are kept very hushed up. If this vaccine prevents cancer, then why not? Daven your daughter will never have needed it!
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Jason,
Tuesday Nov 11, 2008
David, you state that "Jews through the ages have taken guidance from their Rabbis and accepted that they know better than the man in the street." Where is your evidence of this? My history books do not speak of unanimity & blind adherence to rabbinic leadership, but precisely the opposite. In fact, your rabbis were dead wrong in the Shoah, as several even Charedi texts attest to the fact that your leaders advised their community members that the war will not impact them (as some fled with the assistance of the Zionists!). R'Akiva also backed Bar Kochba & look at the devastating results!
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Marsha in Englewood, NJ, USA,
Tuesday Nov 11, 2008
I don't understand why people would even consult a rabbi about whether or not to avail themselves of a vaccine. This vaccine is being advertised in the US. It's PRIMARY purpose is to prevent cervical cancer. Instead of criticizing Ms. Blase or running to a rabbi, you should be getting your adolescent daughters to a doctor, and thank G-d science has yielded a vaccine, finally, that can eliminate a killer of women. When they finally have a vaccine for breast cancer are you going to ask a Rov?
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Ruby, NY,
Tuesday Nov 11, 2008
Bravo, Modesty! HPV (and cervical cancer) are horrible diseases; why wouldn't we want to do all we can to prevent them? The reality is that sometimes teens and young adults have sex (shocking, I know). Putting your head in the sand won't prevent the spread of disease, only education will. I would rather have my daughter protected to the best of my ability, which means education about disease, and prevention, communication of our morals and expectations, and the willingness to be supportive.
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Dov Rahmiel,
Tuesday Nov 11, 2008
How do you know David what children see? It is all based on the individual child, but not in the haredi community. People are supposed to behave there like zombies, and follow the authority of questionable rabbis who claim to be in direct communication with Hashem like many of the followers of the late Lubavitcher Rebbe who claimed that he was Moschiach.
I just love it. He and his followers couldn't hold their own during the Crown Heights Riots and at the same time he was held up as Moschiach. Face it many rabbis are downright scoundrels and their followers are made in their image.
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Kenny D USA,
Wednesday Nov 12, 2008
Why are you posters so tough on Modesty? Rabbi's aren't the end and be all of advise on Judasim and living in this wild, goofy world. Our Shuls are not teaching our kids how to live and behave in this sexually, overactive, dangerous planet. As for the bus...okay let em ride te bus, but go with them and then discuss. WE Jews are way behind in teaching our children the ways of this msehugee welt. And thats in the USA and London. It's madnees and chaos out there for our youths eyes. Rabbi's are only interested in Torah..I love Torah..but its the 21rst century!!
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Nortybits, Ur-th,
Wednesday Nov 12, 2008
I'm with you Modesty. An old (very old) village saying goes, "You can always stoop to pick up s--t." The age-old wisdom is in the difficulty of getting rid of it. Modern science offers protection from a modern world, using technical prowess extended to Mankind by a wise wise HaShem. The Rabbis need not have pap smears either, nor check their boobies. But the wisdom of the age is to look before you leap and if they deny this it must be clear their wisdom is not from HaShem nor Torah but merely their own hubris. We know why girls should preserve their chastity. Health is another good reason.
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DJStahl USA,
Wednesday Nov 12, 2008
Has idolizing of the rabbis increased in recent years? In many areas people have noted a rightward shift in Orthodoxy. This may be one aspect of it. Many blame the Hungarians. Perhaps also due to Torah uMesorah mvm't. The hostile comments here sound like they're from Jonestown Kool-Aid drinkers. In the World to Come, defending an error by saying "The rabbi said so" would seem of limited effect. Certainly the language of many sforim strongly suggests honoring the rabbis; but these often use hyperbole. Perhaps the dorm life of today's yeshivos has cut traditions, swapping literalism for sekhel.
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Leftist- USA,
Wednesday Nov 12, 2008
While the world is full of creeps and losers, quit trashing true modesty. Better yet- don't judge Judaism by Jews. People who look and act very "frum" and yet hurt others are clearly NOT internalizing key concepts of Torah. This does not excuse improper behavior. Nor does it incriminate all or most of Torah Jewry. I recommend that you read Rabbi Manis Friedman's book "Doesn't Anyone Blush Anymore". As a ba'al teshuvah, this book gave me a much clearer understanding of Torah modesty. Check it out; I assure you that you will not be disappointed.
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David Manchester,
Wednesday Nov 12, 2008
Jason: you can't find evidence that Jews were always guided by their Rabbis, your'e having laugh. History books? What's that got to do with it. They were right in the Shoah and are right always. There are some who are not genuine but that applies everywhere. Dov: Children see what everyone sees and why the world is in it's current state. If you abandon the Rabbis, does everyone just do as they please or see fit, guided by History books maybe. To the extent that communities follow their Rabbis' advice, they don't suffer from the above problems.
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David Manchester,
Wednesday Nov 12, 2008
DJStahl: In the world to come the ONLY defence will be that the Rabbis said so. What defence will you give when you are asked why you didn't follow the advice of your Rabbis. That you knew better? based on your own assessment, which in turn is based on your biased view of the world which does not have the benefit of deep knowledge of the Torah?
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chava, yerushalayim,
Wednesday Nov 12, 2008
I've read a number of negative things about the vaccine's safety. This needs to checked out thoroughly. It's not just a prick that will protect against one form of cancer, so why not? There are real downsides to it.
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Marsha in Englewood, NJ, USA,
Wednesday Nov 12, 2008
Chava, there are side effects to everything, even Tylenol. But if a drug is already on the market, especially here in the US, it means it's passed many years of testing by our FDA (Food and Drug Administration) and the benefits far outweigh the side effects.
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Daniel,
Wednesday Nov 12, 2008
Modesty, paragraph three doesn't follow paragraph 1 and 2. And what the first three paragraphs have to do with the rest of the article is anyone's guess. That being said, do you not agree that this is a very private decision that every family is entitled to make? Obviously, you couldn't give a hoot what the Rabbis have to say. Good for you! I guess you must have reasons for vaccinating your daughters.... For the rest of the chareidi community, I would asume they will follow their Rabbis and they could not give a hoot what you have to say. (Hi, Jason! I missed you!)
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Modesty Blase, London,
Wednesday Nov 12, 2008
Good to have you back - David, Jason and Shalom. And thanks to my new readers for your support and encouragement.
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Benjamin from New York,
Wednesday Nov 12, 2008
And furthermore, whatever happened to judging a statement by its merit, not by its utterer? If the Rabbi can back his statement up upon a basis of Torah, that is one thing. But if he just says it, how do we know he is right? To err is human, after all. Even Moshe Rabbeinu erred (by the stone and water), as did Rabbi Akiva (by Bar Kochba) Kal Vachomer and Kal Vachomer modern Rabbis. The solution? Investigate the issue and all the halachic ramifications. Decide based upon logic what is correct. The problem with logic is that sometimes emotions get in the way. But that could be true for him also.
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Benjamin from New York,
Wednesday Nov 12, 2008
And one last thing (boy am I making too many posts :)) you may defend yourself by saying the Gemara in Horayos says that only the Beis Din and not the people brings the Korban if they err and the people follow them. i.e. the people are not blamed for following the Beis din erroneously. But I answer that in that same Gemara it says someone who knows enough to offer a legal decision is indeed obligated if he follows the Beis din against his better judgement.How do you become Ra'uy le-hora'ah in this (or any other) matter? Investigate all the halachic issues involved.Tell me if and how I am wrong
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Benjamin from New York,
Wednesday Nov 12, 2008
And one final thing (ok this one is really final :)) the din of zakein mamrei (sp?) anly applies to the Sanhedrin. The Rabbi's guess is as good as yours. You only know he has investigated the issue thoroughly and unbiasedly because of your faith in him. Al tivtchu bindivim... Do so yourself and you will know for sure that the issue has been investigated thoroughly and unbiasedly. Find out the logic behind what he has said and his sources and investigate them. If they stand up to reason, wonderful. If not, not so wonderful.
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Daniel,
Wednesday Nov 12, 2008
Chava, why do you bore such a "medically qualified" woman like Miss Modesty with your detalis? Perhaps she should be dan lekaf zchus (see post 3 from Shalom) the Rabbis that there are reasons - medically, spiritually, and socially - for not advocating the vaccine which we are not privy to....did she ask them for their reasoning or is it more convenient to knock them in this silly article. Where is her ahavas yisroel? Hmmmm?
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Jason,
Wednesday Nov 12, 2008
Daniel (25), where in Jewish history do we have rabbis making wide sweeping pronouncements first, that dont pertain to halacha per se (what halacha would prohibit a girl from taking this vaccine?) and second, are not butressed by any reasons ("medically, spiritually, and socially") that we are privy to (i.e., that are not published for scrutiny by any of us)? I submit that it is only of late that your gedolim feel so powerful, so immune from criticism that they utter idiotic statements without any proof texts, thinking that we all will follow their lead nonetheless, as you have advocated.
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Daniel,
Wednesday Nov 12, 2008
Jason - If you like, I can send you the words of Rabbi Dr. JB Solovietichik on the matter. I don't know the reasoning of the Rabbis and I am not familiar with this issue or the facts. However, I trust and value them more than I do yourself (aka Yossi, Jason etc..from Boston) or Miss Blase who do not have the courage to identify themselves and stand behind their comments in a public forum. Words are cheap, my friend, if you are ready to dishonor our leaders, state your name and your position.
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Jason,
Wednesday Nov 12, 2008
Oh, Rabbi Dr. JB Solovietichik spoke on the matter of the HPV vaccination? He is much more erudite than I thought he was! Do share with us his words of wisdom. Also, perhaps people hide behind their online personas for a legitimate reason, like because of fear of being tarred and feathered by your zealous brethren? You are not familiar as to why the rabbis have disallowed the vacine but you are willing to support their idiotic verdict in this regard. Fine, but dont expect others to do the same without a rationale. FYI, R' Y S Elyashiv just recently banned sheitels. Whats next?
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David Manchester,
Wednesday Nov 12, 2008
So Benjamin, you think that every time the Rabbis make their opinion known, they must tell everyone exactly how they came to that conclusion. Since Rabbis have to deal with new concepts every day, there are obviously no precedents, and if there are similarities, people will always manage to disprove their reasoning and conclusions. As with children the best policy is not to try and give them reasons for every one of your decisions. cont.
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David, Manchester,
Wednesday Nov 12, 2008
Cont. Benjamin, you sound like someone who can appreciate the concept of knowledge simply on the basis of daas torah which cannot be explained. We are enjoined to accept the Rabbis rulings especially when it is the ruling as in this case of a whole Beis Din, not of an individual. As far as "Al tivtchu bindivim" this does not mean what you infer. It means that a person should not place his reliance for personal needs on humans even though they may be Ndivim (princes) who one might imagine can help a person in his times of hardship.
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Daniel,
Wednesday Nov 12, 2008
Jason - My comment was reponse to your comment "where in Jewish history do we have rabbis making wide sweeping pronouncements first, that dont pertain to halacha per se". You can look up igros hagrid in page 88 where he have to follow their verdict in all regards. Perhaps you would like to heap your scorn on him as well? From the tone of your comments, I think it's me that has to be afraid....you've become very angry since yom kippur. any reason? I don't expect anyone to follow the gedolim if they don't keep the other mitzvos. I was simply stating my position - if that's ok with you.
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Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ,
Thursday Nov 13, 2008
Hi, David, As I'm not familiar with what community Rabbis in the UK are saying about the vaccination, I am relying on this blog, and it seems that a big part of Modesty's question is why there isn't more clarity from the Rabbinate. She cites the newspaper which just says that the Rabbinate did not give it's approval to the program, which doesn't necessarity mean disapproval. Surely a comprehensive responsa would benefit the community? Shalom
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Yoni, New York,
Thursday Nov 13, 2008
David from Manchester, I highly recommend that you read the article "Rupture and Reconstruction" by Rabbi Dr. Hayim Soloveitchik of YU (just google it, it should be the first result, at lookstein.org). He shows how the idea of a "gadol" is a recent invention of the Haredi community. The idea of a "gadol" is not part of normative Torah Judaism, but a sectarian movement. The idea that you should submit your daas to theirs, that they're like a doctor or parents, etc. is all a recent invention. Jason is right about the Shoa, numerous "gedolim" said that the Jews should stay and wouldn't be harmed.
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DJStahl, USA,
Thursday Nov 13, 2008
Re #17, 22 I second what Benjamin said. David, if a Harvard math professor told you 2 + 2 = 5, are you obligated to believe him? Torah also should be seen as objective truth. Your version of Judaism demeans Torah to mere mysticism. Each Jew is obligated to fully engage his intellect. Your view sounds lazy, mental abdication. It sounds like a cultist's, interchangeable, except for minor details, with the cults others have built around Mao, Kim Jong Il, or Lyndon LaRouche. Nor has the real smichah existed for about 1,600 years.
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T, Denver,
Thursday Nov 13, 2008
I think one of The Jerusalem Post's favorite pastimes is rabbi-bashing. After all, if the rabbis don't know what they're talking about, why should we listen to them? It's the best excuse! For everyone's information, the Torah tells us explicitly to listen to the Chachamim (i.e. great rabbis!) and not to veer at all from what they say. I believe it is Rashi who comments that this is the case even if they tell us that left is right and right is left.
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NF, ISRAEL,
Thursday Nov 13, 2008
It seems you all have missed the most important point in this - including the author. That vaccine for hpv is immensely unsafe, causing many long term medical problems and in some countries carries an ingredient that causes a woman not to carry to full term when she becomes pregnant.....many years later. No one's daughter should EVER receive this vaccination. There are many many articles written about it. Check it out for yourself. No one has done their homework.
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DJStahl, USA,
Thursday Nov 13, 2008
David writes, "As with children the best policy is not to try and give them reasons for every one of your decisions." Every psak din I've read is carefully reasoned and cites an abundance of sources. David, are you sure it's Judaism you're talking about? It sounds like you're talking about some sort of cult. Can you cite any basis for what you say?
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David Manchester,
Thursday Nov 13, 2008
Yoni I didn't mention gadol. I spoke of listening to the Rabbis because they speak with daas torah. As T mentioned even if they say that right is left. Again the Rabbis were right in the Shoah. Harvard prof? who is he? In any case it is acceptable to challenge a statement, but it only makes sense if you have sufficient and/or equal knowledge and experience on the subject. If a child criticises their parent for preventing them from crossing a main road without looking because the parent cannot give them a full enough explanantion or because they think the parent is wrong it that justified?
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David Manchester,
Thursday Nov 13, 2008
The point is, we don't have the knowledge to asses and criticise. Basically; G-D gave the Torah by which we must live, whether we understand it or not. Without the Rabbis this Torah cannot be understood at all even if we think we understand it. We are told that Yiftach bedoro K'Moshe bedoro meaning we have to listen to our Rabbis. The more one learns, the more one understands. Without learning we cannot possibly understand it or know how to live our lives even with all the logic and secular knowledge in the world. A reasoned psak is given on matters of Halacha not ever on matters of Hadracha.
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Daniel,
Thursday Nov 13, 2008
Perhaps you can forward to Dr. Hayim Soloveitchik the words of the Ramban in Baba Basra 12a, and perhaps you should point out to him what his own ancestor Rav Chaim Volozhner writes in nefesh hachahim (shaar 4, 20), and while he's at it, he can look up what the Gra writes in berachos 61. When he's done with all that, come back to me and I'll give him some more homework until tomorrow. So I guess it's Modesty (a young lady with a few issues) against the rest of Chazal !!!!!
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Modesty Blase, London,
Thursday Nov 13, 2008
NF and Chava - thank you for raising concerns about the vaccine and if you have credible information, please use this forum to share it. I have not claimed any expertise in this area - rather I was expressing my concern about rabbis who use their authority to undermine medical opninon and assume too much responsibility for decision making in areas that are beyond their remit.
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Jason,
Thursday Nov 13, 2008
Well said Benjamin and DJStahl!!!
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DJStahl,
Friday Nov 14, 2008
Re #39 David writes, "A reasoned psak is given on matters of Halacha not ever on matters of Hadracha." David, can you define these two terms for us as you understand them, "Halacha" and "Hadracha," and show how they differ? In addition, can you furnish examples of each, to clarify the difference as you perceive it? And would you provide citations for this distinction, as you see it?
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DJStahl USA,
Friday Nov 14, 2008
Re #38 Not clear what David means, "Again the Rabbis were right in the Shoah." What do you mean, exactly? Can you explain what you mean? And why do you think the mashal of parents and children applies to rabbeim and baalabatim?
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