Wednesday Sep 17, 2008

Modesty Blasé: Language au pairs

Posted by Modesty Blasé
Comments: 63
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Q. How many Beis Yaakov girls does it take to change a light bulb?

A. 100. One and 99 to say Tehillim.

Women scuttle to each other's homes during the week to huddle and recite Tehillim (Psalms) in an attempt to ward off illness or death or entreat God's kindness for a good shidduch or income. Women are the corrections of a community: when disasters strike, the rabbis often blame the women for gossiping or immodest dress. (Gossiping while dressed immodestly is a double whammy and even worse)

 As if women don't have enough to do, now they are responsible for the spiritual well-being of a whole community and are instructed to say Tehillim as the remedy needed to avert further disaster. What was the Tehillim tipping point? How did these verses come to substitute serious learning and empowerment for women? Isn't is strange that while women's voices are accorded tremendous power to change the divinely ordained course of events, they have virtually no voice in the decision-making process of a religious community. Perhaps that is the real reason why communities start to go awry.

***

Overheard at the butcher the other day.

"I really want to organise a mother and baby morning that has a bit more substance to it. Some learning or something more interesting than just baby talk.'

'That sounds great. I'd love to come. Did you have any ideas in mind.'

'I was thinking about swapping recipes. I need a really good honey cake recipe."

I have never made a honey cake. I don't bake my own challah. My children don't eat home-made cookies. And I have never served strawberries hand dipped in chocolate.

And I am proud.

The race to prove one's domesticity is endemic in Golders Green and Hendon. Highly educated housewifes who have abandoned their career aspirations are channelling those energies into producing festive treats that come to define their role within the family. I argue that we must support  local businesses such as kosher bakeries if we want a sustainable community. I am also not convinced that it is cheaper to make one's own honeycake. Aside from the costs of eggs, honey, flour, electricity and water to clean up, there is the cost of a woman's time - a figure that many women don't value and never bother to calculate. In the run-up to Rosh Hashanah, we are exhorted to use our time to prepare spiritually for a new year of challenges. How did a woman's spiritual preparation get hijacked and transformed into baking the tastiest honey cake in town?

***

Ellul is a month of transition: young girls from the community leave their families and depart for 'sem' - be it Gateshead in northern England, Jerusalem or New York, while a new stream of Eastern European au pair fodder enter these families and can be found at the gates of every Jewish primary school as the new term begins. The experiences of these two groups of young women - roughly the same age - could not be any more different. Esti, Sara and Michal are leaving home with a credit card and a suitcase full of new clothes with sleeves just that bit longer than what they could get away with in London. Petra, Jana and Olga will arrive on a bus at Victoria station in London with a small amount of cash and a rucksack filled with workday jeans and plastic slippers.

Esti and her classmates know that they will be indulged for a year in what parents regard a 'reward' for their daughters' hard work during high school. Esti plans on meeting her friends in Emek Refaim, Jerusalem's trendy café strip, where they will demand latté and cake in condescending tones. Their parents will text several times a day and phone regularly and there will be constant monitoring of their activities by a cabal of mothers who fly out for the weekend to visit their daughters. If they could install an international baby monitor in their daughters' dorm room, they would be listening to it all day long from the comfort of their Hendon triple lounge.

In stark contrast, Petra and the new friends she has just met on the bus, have no idea what is waiting for them as they cross the threshold of  the religious Jewish family they have agreed to work for. Her parents can't afford to visit, she will spend Christmas alone in her bedroom and it's likely that she will work second or third jobs to supplement her au pair income. For many young girls the au pair experience is a wonderful time, but occasionally it is a disaster and the au pair finds herself in a dangerous position.

Every Jewish mother who sends her daughter to sem feels fairly confident that a relative, friend or yenta on the block will look after her daughter if she is in trouble. Every mother in Eastern Europe is also worried, but she is not so confident that there is a safe and supportive environment waiting for her in London.

It's easy to dismiss the au pairs that we have come to rely on. I have often heard women refer to their au pair as a 'peasant' or they make a joke about her family's role during the Holocaust - 'I'll bet her grandfather was raping my grandmother.' These "jokes" are borne of deep suspicion and internalized trauma that deeply damage the relationship between the au pair and her family. Sometimes I think that hiring these au pairs is an unconscious form of revenge: by regarding the au pairs negatively, they are defending their own family's honor.

Here's an Ellul thought: instead of imagining that the au pair's family were collaborators, perhaps they were actually righteous Gentiles.

Fortunately, there's still enough time to ask for forgiveness before Yom Kippur.

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1  |   David, Manchester, Wednesday Sep 17, 2008
Everyone is responsible for everyone else in Judaism and women should use their ability to do what they can. I am not sure why you feel that this must be recompensed in measure only by being able to make decisions in the community. Women have their vital role in Judaism even though it is not in communal decisions. You ask how did Tehilim come to substitute serious learning and empowerment for women. The question is when did serious learning and empowerment for women come to substitute Tehilim.
2  |   Lindsey, London, Thursday Sep 18, 2008
Absolutely spot on, Modesty!!!!!!! With respect, I think David of Manchester may well have missed the point here. If he investigated Jewish history and the frummest communities of old, he would find many differences from the minor role allocated to women by many haredi communities today, excluding them from learning and flattering them that they are too holy to 'need' it', which is actually a 19th-20th century innovation. Think of Deborah, Shalomzion Hamalka, Beruriah, Imma Shalom, Rebecca Tiktiner, Sarah bat Tovim, Hannah of Ludomir, etc. I hope I know you, Modesty, by the way!
3  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Thursday Sep 18, 2008
Great post--I recall a story of a rebbe (Satmar?) who was often seen pausing outside the door to his apartment. When asked why, he said that his gentile cleaning woman used to sing to herself, and he didn't want to embarass her by entering when she was singing. A nice bit of mussar, which seems to generally be ignored. Best wishes, Shalom
4  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Thursday Sep 18, 2008
Hi, David, If you look at the general theme of Modesty's posts, it seems to me that she isn't *just* refering to 'serious learning' and communal decisions; rather, it's the issue of being put in a small box and told that it's the only appropriate box for you. For example, a previous blog referred to a trend of 'dumbing down' girls in school--why shouldn't they pursue a career if they want to? Not every woman is made to stay home full time--just as not every man is made to learn full time. While men and women *are* different, many tend to denigrate the woman's role despite the PR. Shalom
5  |   Rachel, Tel Aviv, Israel, Friday Sep 19, 2008
Shalom, Cherry Hill: You actually compare learning full time with staying home full time? And you think that this is a valid comparison? Most Jewish women have a major problem with the way women are treated in orthodox Judaism and the really lame self-serving excuses that are offered by the men. Most of us cannot come to terms with "Baruch sheloh assani ishah" being prayed every morning by our male co-religionists. And the excuses and explanations that are offered by men only make things worse. My husband and I love Jewish tradition, but we are all urgently in need of a brave modern Rambam.
6  |   V usa, Friday Sep 19, 2008
Wow. You have issues...
7  |   David Frost, Friday Sep 19, 2008
Well said.
8  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Friday Sep 19, 2008
Hi, Rachel, first, please cite the study that demonstrates what 'most' Jewish women have problems with and cannot come to terms with, as opposed to your feelings and those of your acqaintances. Second, if you reread my post you'll note that I wrote that it seems to me that the issue is being put in a small box and told that it's the only appropriate one for you; women staying at home and men learning full time are two examples of such boxes. I never wrote about them being 'comparable'--though they are *in that* some feel that both are the best choices for men and women respectively. Shalom
9  |   Rachel, Tel Aviv, Israel, Saturday Sep 20, 2008
Shalom, Cherry Hill: You appear extremely defensive asking "cite the study that demonstrates what most Jewish women have problems [with the way they are treated in orthodoxy]". You cannot expect a serious debate when you demand a study for each statement made. Do you have a study to justify saying "they are [comparable] *in that* some feel that both are the best choices for men and women respectively". Of course you don't. All the same, I'll rephrase: In my experience, most Jewish women have a major problem with the way women are treated in orthodox Judaism. Are you okay with that?
10  |   David, Manchester, Saturday Sep 20, 2008
I think the problem Modesty and some of the commentators have, is that they want to be on both sides of the orthodox Jewish/Non Jewish liberated fence. This is the reason they are not happy in their roles in the Orthodox Jewish world. Truly orthodox women not only do not have a problem with what you term boxes, but are truly happy in their role as homemakers and bringing up their children. Modesty's problem is that she knows in her heart that Orthodox Judaism is the genuine article but does not want to give up what she perceives to be missing in the liberated world. Result unhappiness.
11  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Sunday Sep 21, 2008
Hi, Rachel, If you think about it, you'll (hopefully) realize that stating that things are 'comparable' is not a claim of some absolute fact, but generally used to describe opinions. However you rephrase your opinion of how women are treated in Orthodox Judaism, however, I still don't see how it relates it to what I wrote, as my point was that women are often relegated to certain roles that they may not wish to fulfill, and that men are as well. Please explain why that opinion seems to be offensive to you, as I simply don't see it, and would like to know what I am missing. Shalom
12  |   Dr. Batsheva, Sunday Sep 21, 2008
The issue here with the orthodox "place" for women has nothing to do with religion at all. It is cultural, based on the Jewish versions of keeping up with the Joneses, don't rock the boat, and be safe in being mediocre, and this is not at all Jewish!! The mistake is blaming all that is good in Yiddishkeit and the woman's role in particular, for the nonsense. Modesty should develop her own personal, frum niche in life while not being intimidated by (and condemning) those who choose the comfortable middle of the bell-shaped curve. With self-confidence and maturity, these issues vanish.
13  |   anna, Sunday Sep 21, 2008
"Ellul is a month of transition" I whole heartedly agree. These London communities, dont know how lucky they are, or is it unlucky. As their values are slightly...A heavy crash is needed to wake them up!! also without the marvellous, patience, gentle behavour of Philippinos, here in Israel where . 'most wanted and sort out' in the land. Our Philippino went to Edngeware, very bright and is studying in the U.K. We are still in contact via e mail. Each individual is different and should be treated as such. Dont judge a person until you have been i their place. a general judgement
14  |   Jason, Monday Sep 22, 2008
Modesty, well done! I too have for years wondered about this new phenomenon of women congregating in tehillim groups. The further we are from Sinai, the less likely we are to take matters into our own hands. We have essentially relegated all wordly matters to God in a hope that he will intervene. Yet, he will not. He has instructed us to take action ourselves in mandating that we engage in tikun olam. It reminds me of the famous joke where a person is drowning & he fervently prays to God to be saved.Yet, he ignores the passing boat & other means to be saved (sent by God himself!)...
15  |   David, Manchester, Monday Sep 22, 2008
new phenomenon ????
16  |   Daniel, Tuesday Sep 23, 2008
Right on David #10 ! Nicely put !
17  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Tuesday Sep 23, 2008
Hi, David, re #10: It seems to me that the frum acknowledge by their insistence on very strict dress codes and in Israel cell phones in which internet is blocked, that even they are subject to all manner of temptation. Hopefully these strategies help--but they have the temptation or else why bother? Therefore, isn't it a bit of a stretch to assert that "Truly orthodox women not only do not have a problem with what you term boxes, but are truly happy in their role as homemakers and bringing up their children"? Do you *truly* think that they are all so very truly happy? At all times? Shalom
18  |   David, Manchester, Tuesday Sep 23, 2008
Shalom #10. Temptation (Yezer HoRah) was placed in this world so that we can earn our Olam Haba by fighting against it. Strict dress code etc are part of our weaponry. I do not understand how that is any way connected with being happy in ones role in life. Women (and men for that matter) who feel that they are acheiving their true purpose in the world are by extension fulfilled and happy. The more they appreciate this fact the more happy they are. Truly great people - Tzaddikim and Tzidkonios - are the happiest people alive.
19  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Tuesday Sep 23, 2008
Hi, David, While truly great people may be the happiest people alive, they are by definition a very small minority of the population. Most people have their frustrations, and inner conflicts will arise. It seems presumptuous to proclaim that all women (or men) should fit a cookie cutter mold, and I don't recall the posuk in Tanach that fixes your standard to all women. G-d clearly decided to make us all different, and He must have had His reasons for doing so. Perhaps He meant for some women's true purpose to be fulfilled partially outside the home; if so they should be encouraged in it.
20  |   Jason, Tuesday Sep 23, 2008
David and Daniel: do you rely on any scientific studies that would demonstrate that "truly orthodox women" (read, they act like you men believe they should act) are happier than less than "truly orthodox women"? Do these women open up to you and express themselves freely to you or are they afraid of messing up their childrens' shidduchim and their reputation within their (intolerant) communities?
21  |   Daniel, Tuesday Sep 23, 2008
Shalom 17 - I guess the divorce rate among the orthodox compared to the rest of society will answer your question.
22  |   Daniel, Tuesday Sep 23, 2008
David 15 - Jason has asserted on another thread that tehillim was not written by Dovid Hamelech but rather by someone else later. So understandably he does not attach too much importance to this "new phenomenom". He seems to forget how I'm sure his own bubby's from Satmar from cry over their Tehillims so that there offspring would follow in the ways of Hash-m. Unfortuantly, he is right, he does not always intervene.....
23  |   David, Manchester, Tuesday Sep 23, 2008
Shalom. Overcoming frustrations and inner conflicts gives a person purpose and fulfillment - and happiness. I have not said that everyone should fit a mold, women should go to work if they wish but this alone won't make them happy, one has to have purpose in life. Modesty is frustrated with Judaism and has a problem with people "scuttling" to "huddle" and recite Tehilim. In other words anything she doesn't want to do is to be looked down at. She tries to rid herself of her unhappiness by putting down others, but this simply gives her a short respite from a frustrated and unhappy existence.
24  |   Jason, Tuesday Sep 23, 2008
Daniel (21), what precisely IS the divorce rate among the Orthodox? Do you have any statistics to back your claim or are you once again relying upon your Rosh Hayeshiva's opinion? (22) Yes, i challenge you to prove to me definitively that David Hamelech wrote Tehilim. My Bubby from Satmar whom i did not have the pleasure of ever meeting said her tehillim, but little good did it do for her & my Zayde & uncles and aunts, Auschwiz was His reply. Perhaps some histadlut may have been in order. The Satmarer rebbe prevented them from leaving to the then Palestine where they would have been saved.
25  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Tuesday Sep 23, 2008
Hi, David, while I don't have any statistics at hand, I have read that divorce in frum circles has grown a great deal- and I've seen it with people I know. Also, we don't know how many stay in unhappy marriages because they are subject to pressure regarding yichus and future shidduchim and fears of being unable to acquire a get. Once more, can you cite a posuk in tanach that supports your view of the proper women's role in society? By the way, the frum lifestyle itself is quite an evolution from Temple times as well. Shalom
26  |   Jason, Tuesday Sep 23, 2008
Daniel (21), besides, the lack of divorce rates does not necessarily prove that the Orthodox are happy in their marraiges; they may feel like they have no other alternatives but to stay within their unhappy marraiges.
27  |   daniel, Wednesday Sep 24, 2008
Jason - Do you have scientific studies that prove otherwise? All I know is that I personally know hundreds and hundreds of yeshivish families and I can count on one hand how many are divorced. Boruch Hashm, due to our lifestyles we do not share the same statistics as secular people do in terms of divorce. What are you guys up to? 2 out of 3? Am I correct? If you doubt my wife's happiness, I can provide you with my phone number and you can discuss with her if she is truly happy as a mother of my nine children and the wife of yours truly.....
28  |   David, Manchester, Wednesday Sep 24, 2008
mesage to moderator; why does it take 24 hours to have the comments reviewed and posted up?
29  |   Jason, Wednesday Sep 24, 2008
Daniel (27), you are the one making the allegation, so you should provide the statistics! You cant on the one say that frum people are less likely to divorce (which, once again, may be slightly true due to the fact that they may feel that they have no other alternative) & then challenge me to prove otherwise. I suspect that the divorce rate among the frum is quickly catching up to society at large. Besides, there IS statistics re the divorce rate among the Orthodox pre-war, & they demonstrate that close to 40% of all such marraiges ended in divorce. See Dr. Rivka Blau for evidence.
30  |   Daniel, Wednesday Sep 24, 2008
40% Divorce ? Ha! Send me link ! Another misquote which I am sure you will ignore when challenged. On my block lives 150 frum families - AND NOT ONE DIVORCE ! Try again, jason. I challenge anyone reading these words, to make a list of all the frum families they know and how many divroces vis a vis secular families. Case closed !
31  |   Daniel, Wednesday Sep 24, 2008
Jason 24 - Ok. First tell me if you believe in any holy scriptures and then prove their authorship. And if you don't believe in any holy scriptures, please explain to this new audience what exactly makes you orthodox? And Yes, Aushwitz is the reply as per the Tochacha in the Torah - as we have discussed before. Histadlus is in order ! The Jewish nation as a whole must keep his words or we all pay the price. Simple as that. And again, I'm sorry to hear about your family loss in the Holocaust. May their memory be a blessing.
32  |   Daniel, Wednesday Sep 24, 2008
David in Machester - Is that Manchester England?
33  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Wednesday Sep 24, 2008
Hi, David, re post 23, do you really feel that you are qualified to diagnose a person's feelings and 'issues'--especially from some blogs? If you feel that you are, do you then feel it appropriate to post your diagnosis? Shalom
34  |   David, Manchester, Thursday Sep 25, 2008
Daniel 32: Yes
35  |   David, Manchester, Thursday Sep 25, 2008
Shalom 33: My diagnosis is based on what I read screaming out of Modesty's blogs. Unhappy people find solace in putting down others without reason so as to thereby elevate themselves. She is proud that she doesn't bake for her kids! People I know are proud of achievements not of things they don't do. She rationalises this by saying that she is supporting the economy! and explaining that it is not cheaper. Even were this to be true, does she not understand that not everything is money. How about love for your kids. How can you be proud of not doing things for your kids. cont...
36  |   David, Manchester, Thursday Sep 25, 2008
Shalom 33 cont. Reading her blogs shows that she is not happy about woman's role in life, not happy that she cannot have a blackberry and seems to want to live the life of a man, she is not happy with her body etc etc. I am not "qualified" to diagnose her problems, and before you ask Jason, there is no scientific research into this matter as yet and no statistics, but just as one doesn't need such research to know that orthodox people and marriages are happier and more fulfilling than others, one doesn't need to be qualified to comment on Modesty's blogs. Appropriate? this is what she wants
37  |   A reader somewhere else in New Jersey, Thursday Sep 25, 2008
I would like to know why frum families are leaving their most precious commodity, their children, in the hands of young gentile women ?(to be politically correct, I had to use 3 words to substitute for the one word I REALLY wanted to use) The anecdote of the Satmar rebbe leaving the room while the cleaning lady was singing was amusing, but when the YGW is singing around the children and they pick up the tune and it turns out to be one of "theirs", are we going to be happy about it?
38  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Thursday Sep 25, 2008
Hi, David, While you may feel that your comments are a direct response to what is 'screaming' out of Modesty's blog, others might feel that unbecoming pride and self righteousness bellow out of yours. After all--look at the assumptions that you make based on the limited text that we have to read! Modesty's point about not baking and putting a value on her time can also refer to taking her small children to a park because she doesn't employ an au pair (priceless) versus baking the cake herself (a few pounds at the bakery). Doesn't 'dan lekaf zechus' apply here? If not, why not? Shalom
39  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Thursday Sep 25, 2008
To David (cont) Isnt there a well known story of R' Schwab seeing an acquaintance eatling seafood in a treyf restaurant, and concluding that he must have been suffering from a medical condition which required him to eat immediately--rather than assume that he was deliberately eating treyf? Shouldn't we try to emulate that story, especially in the days leading up to Yom HaDin, instead of assuming the worst and publicizing our assumptions? Shalom
40  |   David, Manchester, Thursday Sep 25, 2008
Shalom, What you view as pride & righteousness is not not SELF righteousness. It is the righteousness of orthodox Judaism which I am defending and promoting which I feel is important. Modesty puts forward controversial ideas as the ideal in a way that is not in line with orthodox Judaism's views. I therefore feel it necessary to show readers that her views are wrong and based on putting down others as opposed to standing on a solid base of it's own. As far as 'dan lekaf zechus' is concerned, I quote from her blog above "It's easy to dismiss the au pairs that we have come to rely on"
41  |   Modesty Blase, Thursday Sep 25, 2008
David : I will be at the bakery at 6 am on Friday buying challot as I have to go to work after I send the kids to school. You can call me on my blackberry if you would like to meet me there. Mr. Blase feeling a little hurt by your comments, but I find your assumptions about me so amusing that I cannot be bothered to get insulted. You'll recognise me because I look miserable and depressed. Shalom - are you sure you are not a woman posing as a man? Your sensitivity is a breath of fresh air - if you are a man, I have a few lovely single women you could meet.
42  |   David, Manchester, Friday Sep 26, 2008
Modesty, I am pleased that my comments have at least had some effect on you. If you are already posting comments, maybe you can tell us what you have against Tehilim and why you put down those who "scuttle" to recite "these verses". Maybe you can answer the question in my first post "when did serious learning and empowerment for women come to substitute Tehilim". Do you not believe that gossiping and immodest dress causes harm to the community? I wish you, Mr Blase, your kids and Klal Yisroel a Kesiva VeChsima Tova
43  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Friday Sep 26, 2008
Dear Modesty, Thank you for your kind words--my wife appreciates your ratifying the great deal of hard work that she has invested in civilizing me. B"H our 4 kids wouldn't understand my taking you up on your kind offer! (Neither would Mrs. Shalom, who just expressed the hope that those lovely young women find their bashert, as we did). Have a Shabbat Shalom and Shana Tovah U'Metukah, and best regards to Mr. Blase.
44  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Friday Sep 26, 2008
Hi, David, please find a moment to help me with my unanaswered question as to why you believe that the concept of 'dan lekaf zechus' does not apply here? By the way, while I don't have any studies at my fingertips to cite, based on many conversations that I have had, and articles that I've read, I believe that a great many non Frum are turned off, in fact disgusted, by the manner of 'kiruv' and 'promotion' that you enploy. As I am sure that you are sincere, I urge you to try to research this issue in order to be more successful in your efforts. Shalom
45  |   Reader in Jersey.., Friday Sep 26, 2008
I just want to wish Modesty and everyone here a Good Shabbos. Thanks for all the thought provoking posts!
46  |   David, Manchester, Friday Sep 26, 2008
Shalom, Dan Lekaf Zechus is the concept of judging someone favourably when the matter is IN DOUBT. You asked me to judge Modesty favourably in that maybe the reason she doesn't bake is because she takes the kids out because she doesn't have a Shiksa to do this for her. You considered not having a Shiksa as Priceless, so do I. I pointed out that Modesty states in her blog that she relies on her Shiksa, so there is no doubt about which one could judge favourably. What exactly in my posts do you find disgusting, the fact that I am pointing out failures in the non orthodox veiwpoint?
47  |   Daniel, Friday Sep 26, 2008
Shalom - Perhaps your questions should be directed towards Miss Modesty as well. Why is she not dan lekaf zchus the typical yiddishe mother that has endured for thousands of years before her feminist agenda evovled out of the sixties. Second, why do you assume David is involved in kiruv? He is successfully challenging Miss Modesty's absurd column. I for one am disgusted by her words and the method SHE employs. Why is it that we have to conform to a certain level of decorum etc...while the other side can swipe with impunity? Good Shabbos!
48  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Sunday Sep 28, 2008
Hi, Daniel, While Modesty may employ an au pair (I hadn’t paid that close attention) the ‘priceless’ comment is regarding the time spent with children instead of baking. Whether a person has an au pair and/or a career or not, they constantly make decisions on how to allocate time and resources--baking vs spending time in the park, or mindlessly watching a movie. If you have no doubt about how she spent her time, I’d like to ask you (relying on your honesty) to show her blog and your posts to a Rov that you trust, and ask if you’e as makpid on ‘dan lekaf zechus’ as you believe. (cont)
49  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Sunday Sep 28, 2008
(cont) Additionally, I wrote that “I believe that a great many non Frum are turned off, in fact disgusted, by the manner of 'kiruv' and 'promotion' that you employ”. ‘Disgusted’ is too strong a word for how I feel, because you weren’t as gratuitously insulting as some other frum posters, but turned off and disappointed would be accurate because the posts seem sound prideful and condescending. For example, # 23 writing that Modesty is frustrated with Judaism, when it is the close minded behavior of many in her community that seems to be the issue. (cont)
50  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Sunday Sep 28, 2008
(cont) She doesn’t complain about having to keep kashrut or Shabbat, but aspects of how people behave. Considering the fact that G-d told Avraham to listen to Sarah, is it really so ‘anti-Jewish’ to ask why women’s opinions aren’t accorded more respect? Also—you are implying that Modesty’s views are ‘the non-Orthodox’ viewpoint’—who made you the arbiter that her views are non-Orthodox? Pointing out that one might have more empathy for their gentile help is wrong? Why not address those real concerns--why are they non-Orthodox? (see Satmar Rebbe example post #3). Shalom
51  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Sunday Sep 28, 2008
Shavua Tov, Daniel, Might I point out that Modesty is not directing her post at any identifiable person--she is writing about general practices that frustrate her. Also, what about her 'agenda' is feminist from the 60s? Next, I don't assume Daniel is involved in kiruv; I was being ironic, and apologize if it wasn't well done. In fact, his posts seem designed to thwart it. Finally, how is Modesty pointing out specific issues to be addressed in her community a 'swipe w/impunity'? In any case, reason and good humor are more effective tools than sarcasm and put downs. Best wishes, Shalom
52  |   David, Manchester, Sunday Sep 28, 2008
Shalom cont. Women's opinions are very important, even more important that men's on ocassions, but that applies to matters in the home and in a woman's domain, not to communal matters. The Satmar Rebbe's house may have used a shiksa to clean the floors, but you can be sure that they had no contact with his kids.
53  |   Modesty Blase, Sunday Sep 28, 2008
For the record, I do not employ an aupair, hence I am ironing my own clothes for the chag and no time to reply at length. Mr. Blase bonding with the children as he takes them to the shop to buy honey cake. Shana Tova, Modesty B.
54  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Sunday Sep 28, 2008
correction to posts 48, 49, and 50--I apologize, but in my haste I addressed them to Daniel instead of David.
55  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Sunday Sep 28, 2008
Hi, David, Please refresh my memory as to where, exactly, one finds in the Torah a definitive guide for where one listens to a woman's opinion, and where one does not. I do notice that one finds ways to 'sell' chametz to someone who will never take possession despite the clear command to clear it out of our houses--but woe unto us for listening to a woman in 'communal matters'? Or for not insisting on home baked honey cake? Not to denigrate your beliefs, but surely you can acknowledge that it's not the *only* legitimate way of being 'Orthodox'. Shalom
56  |   David, Manchester, Sunday Sep 28, 2008
Shalom: No Rov has time to waste examining blogs. It's simply untrue that people are turned off by honest debate. I ask you again to point out what in my posts you find so objectionable. The definitive guide is specifically as per your reference to Avraham & Sarah, which related to sending Yishmael away from home as he was a bad influence on Yitzchok. We don't find such a directive regarding communal matters. The Torah points out it was seen as compliment that Sarah was "in the tent" not involved with matters outside the home. Lastly baking is not the issue, feeling proud that she dosen't is.
57  |   Jason, Sunday Sep 28, 2008
David, no one here is turned off by homest debate. Your beliefs however are wholly obnoxious. The sad thing is that you don't have a clue as to why this is the case.
58  |   Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ, Sunday Sep 28, 2008
Hi, David, perhaps our posts crossed due to the lag, but please note in posts 49 & 50 I pointed out examples of what is objectionable. Also, while a Rov may not have time to waste on blogs, surely in the context of helping you to determine whether your 'hashkafa' is correct would be important to him, especially as you are trying to defend 'Orthodoxy'. While I'm not turned off by honest debate, I would be turned off by a Gentile calling me a 'Hebe', or commenting how 'careful' we are with money--because of the context. Again, your idea on a women's place is only a point of view. Shalom
59  |   David, Manchester, Sunday Sep 28, 2008
Jason: How can one have a clue as to what you are suggesting, when your posts do not actually say anything. Why don't you tell us all what you find obnoxious.
60  |   Daniel, Sunday Sep 28, 2008
Jason - they are only obnoxious to all who abhor everything holy. The sad thing is that you DO have a clue as to why this is the case. David, let me introduce you to Jason. Read some of his comments the past year on the Jpost Reform Blog. No futher comment necessary.
61  |   Jason, Monday Sep 29, 2008
Yes Daniel, I abhor much of what you call "holy". That is, the banning of books and of divergent opinion, the banning of music, the rejection of science, history and of scholarly approaches to Judaism, the homophobic and misogynistic tendencies of Charedi Judaism, the abandonment of the holy concept of work, the obnoxious rise in fundraising by yeshiovot and kollelim too numerous to count, the silence of the so called gedolim in response to the sex abuse crisis within Charedi Judaism and much, much more too enumerate. On the other hand, i find Modesty's postings to be utterly refreshing!
62  |   Daniel, Thursday Oct 02, 2008
No, my friend. You abhor anything that will stand in the way of your desires. You can continue to hide behind this blog, but on these high holy days, Hashm knows exactly who you are and where you are headed. I truly feel bad for you and believe it or not, I thought about you during davening today and prayed for all of Israel to do a complete teshuva. May you be zocheh !!
63  |   Jason, Thursday Oct 02, 2008
Daniel (62), its intriguing how Charedim like yourself play God when you claim to understand what motivates me, and this immediately after Rosh Hashana! None of my secular friends would ever make such assumptions. My “desires” do not guide me to be critical of many aspects of your community, rather its pure reason and common sense. For example, there is an ancient segula for parnassa, and you and I know it. It’s called work. What does desire have anything to do with such a critique? Yet, you will defend your untenable lifestyle to the end of the world. I too prayed for you and yours.
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Modesty Blasé

And G-d created Modesty. And Modesty grew up to be an Orthodox Jewish housewife and mother in London. She has a Pesach kitchen and a Polish cleaner. Her skirts are long and she often sports a trendy baseball cap with a fake ponytail. But lately, Modesty has been having some doubts. This is her commentary.

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Devorah: Throughout the world, thousands of Jews assemble peacefully for pro-Israel rallies, and the mainstream media don't bother to report on it. A few dozen hateful Islamic fanatics behave obnoxiously and/or illegally while protesting against Israel or some perceived insult to Islam, and it's all over the media.
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Jeanie - Texas: I'm late to the conversation & doubtful anyone will see this, but why so much legalism about physical appearance, particularly women? It's absurd and we all know it's used as a means of controlling others just for the hell of it. Yes, one should use common sense when going out in public, but let's face it - we all have our own interpretation of the word "modesty" and we're choking on gnats here. A dog is still a dog regardless of what the cat is wearing, so why blame the cat? I hereby declare all men are to wear orange & fushia polka-dot bowties until further notice. No exceptions!!