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Thursday Jul 09, 2009
Modesty Blasé: Blaming the world's tragedies on women's immodest dress
Posted by Modesty Blasé
Comments: 54
    
In Hendonistan, there's a new message that's been circulated via email and posted on relevant notice boards inside one particular shul [synagogue] (although by the time you read this, I understand the notice will have been taken down). In a paean to Mea Shearim typography, the black and red banner in this popular Orthodox London shul requests that girls and women maintain proper halachic [according to Jewish law] standards of dress in shul. They are to refrain from 'low necklines, see-through and short-sleeve tops and short skirts.' And finally, there is the classic plea 'Please help us to preserve the Kedushat Beit Haknesset.' [sanctity of the synagogue]. Yes, all that holiness resting on the errant elbow of Hendon housewife.
What is a woman meant to make of this? Holding women's actions accountable for the fate of these young men serves to abrogate the personal responsibility of those who committed the crime. How is a man meant to respond? Is he really meant to believe that his mother/wife/daughter/sister is the harbinger of all bad tidings pending her fashion sense? Has thousands of years of Jewish history and our complex relationship with the Divine been reduced to a schmutter [piece of cloth]?
1 |
sandra, UK,
Thursday Jul 09, 2009
What's wrong with asking women to dress modestly in Shul?
2 |
Elise,
Thursday Jul 09, 2009
I find it ironic that women listen to these men at all. Did it ever dawn on a haredi woman that she can assert her indepence and decide things for herself. That any form of religion, Judaism included, that blames evil or bad doings on female immodesty rather than peronal responsibility is devoid of moral authority and guilty of a form of female abuse. There are many forms of Judaism and even religous woman who have no problem with controlling their own future. Try the young orthodox movement.
3 |
Danny Hendon,
Thursday Jul 09, 2009
For women, mastering the attribute of modesty is equal to a man's learning of Talmud and codes. Modesty is a state of mind and an outlook as well as details of clothing. We see too many brides and Bat Mitzvah girls dressed immodestly and there is nothing wrong with reminding people about how to dress correctly. When did you last see men in shul in sleeveless shirts and short trousers?
4 |
Joe Golders Green, Ir HaKodesh,
Thursday Jul 09, 2009
If this same shul asked men to wear a jacket and tie and a cappel, would men go crazy and object? Some years back a major shul in Golders Green had a notice about the minmum size of a kosher cappel and requested men and boys to make sure their heads were considered 'covered'. Within a month the small size cappels disdappeared in shul -- with no protest. Why is she so upset about being reminded of minimal standards of proper modesty?
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Sherlock Holmes Golders Green,
Thursday Jul 09, 2009
If the shul has to remind its female members not to wear low cut tops or see throuigh fabrics or short skirts, it must be in a pretty sad state. Would any UK girls school allow low cut tops or short skirts etc? You don't have to be Jewish to have a sense of what is appropriate. In the Royal Enclosure at Ascot women are requested to wear proper hats and proper length skirts, Should a shul expect any less?
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Myron T. Friedman, Hillside, NJ,
Thursday Jul 09, 2009
It was not a lack of tznius that was responsible for the incarceration of the 3 bochrim in Japan. The tremendous reward of improving tznius can however be a merit for their release. It is positive, not negative. Where there is greater tznius there is greater kedusha (sanctity) and everyone benefits from that. Similarly we can also increase shalom between our fellow jews and refrain from machloches, bitul Torah and Loshon Horah. These acts will also increase kedusha in the world.
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Beth Jerusalem,
Thursday Jul 09, 2009
While I agree with blogger's point about emotional blackmail being inappropriate, it is no less inappropriate to make light of the woman who have dedicated themselves to tsniut. There are many beautiful, intelligent and honorable women who have conscienciously decided to dress modestly. They have chosen, not because they were manipulated by the rabbinate, but out of a genuine desire to serve HaShem.
I think that what you have neglected to appreciate is that devotion is not the same as fanaticism. And that obligation is not a dirty word.
8 |
Modesty Blase,
Thursday Jul 09, 2009
Thanks to my respected educational colleague who has pointed out to me that tzniut should also include consideration of the sourcing of the cloting. Cheap clothes made in sweat shops by young children across Asia, no matter how long the sleeves, should be considered immodest. What have our modesty police got to say about that?
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Shalom, Cherry Hill,
Thursday Jul 09, 2009
Welcome back, Modesty-- I hope that the parnassa issues that you alluded to in your last post
have resolved themselves. Regarding this post-- another gem, as usual. Shalom
10 |
Seymour R USA,
Thursday Jul 09, 2009
It bothers me as a Jew that we have among us such super "un" Orthodox (from those who think "Zionism is an abomination" written on walls is Mea Sherim) who remind me of the Mullahs who insist on Sharia Law that Islam demands. Covering up a women in 100% weather while men walk around in short sleeve shirts is rediculous! Of couse, we should all dress conservativly in Synagogue. And some women do dress immodestly, but its their choice. To equate the boys in Jail in Japan with modest dressing is nuts! Whats more important...can't Israel get them out? Japan is a friend...I thought.
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Barbara in Israel,
Thursday Jul 09, 2009
Don't you ever get tired of being bitter and cynical? Do you have anything doing on in your mind besides the victimhood of women in the Orthodox world. Most people outgrow that somewhere between 18 and 25.
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Shlomo Silverstein,
Thursday Jul 09, 2009
So to summarise your article, what you are saying is that Rabbis, who are steeped in the wisdom of Torah, are complete idiots as well as women haters who blame all the ills of the world on girls who don't dress modestly. What you are actually saying is that your street wise commonsense is far superior to "their" outdated, primitive, superstitious and sexist Torah. Have I got it about right madam?
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samuel t. warren in Toronto,
Thursday Jul 09, 2009
is it really necessary for the holy city of jerusalem to hold a gay pride parade
i do not particularly want it to appear in toronto(as it does) but definitely not in
Jerusalem, our holy city. make it illlegal-do not issue a permit for this unwelcome
spectacle called a gay pride parade. a parade of what?
terry Toronto
14 |
david manchester,
Thursday Jul 09, 2009
There you go again with your pet subject: imMODESTY and negating any advice of the Gedolim which in this post you refer to as foolish. You twist what they say and ridicule. They are not blaming the world's ills on immodesty, they are saying that the zechus of modesty can achieve great things. If you have a problem with Tzinius keep it to yourself don't try and denigrate it in public blogs. Incidentally it is not hendonistan, it is torah.
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Jan, Australia,
Friday Jul 10, 2009
Victorian literature showed excitement over a glimpse of ankle, and a lock of hair. So even a black tent in hiding much may be, 'exciting in what it reveals. Going to a beach in summer is a good turn off. Nothing like a bikini to reveal all the unexciting folds of flesh normal women have, and unless they hold themselves like a model nobody looks. I've seen a religious girl whistled at in the street by males from a passing car when she was wearing a frilly long sleeved top and a dark full skirted mid calf length skirt. Males need to think on higher things than women's clothes
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Rebekah in Salem,
Friday Jul 10, 2009
I love how it's on the WOMEN to cover up, not on the MEN to avert their eyes or control their own impluses. Sheesh. As a woman, I do choose modest clothes as defined my culture, and I understand that as cultures differ so the definition of "modest" clothing differs. However, attitude is far more effective than any dress code. Instead of just scolding the women for being "provocative", how about also encouraging the men to practice restraint in their thoughts and glances? A man's thoughts become his words, and his words become his actions, right? Stop the thoughts.
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Moises,
Friday Jul 10, 2009
Dear Modesty Blasé,
I can realize that some people don't like being told how to dress (or how to do anything for that matter), but I don't see how you come to the conclusion that "all bad tidings" are being blamed on lack of modesty. In the case of the jailed students, for example, the belief that increased modesty would help their situation does not presuppose that any lack thereof caused it. It would seem that your issue is not with "modest" dress, but with the core of Judaism itself: that the spiritual effects of our actions have physical repercussions.
18 |
Marsha in NJ, USA,
Friday Jul 10, 2009
Spot on, Mo. I didn't see the Five Towns paper (and I'm a lot closer to there than you are. How did YOU see it?) but I am shaking my head over that poor woman's solution. Here's a practical suggestion. How about educating naive yeshiva boys about the ways of the world? That you don't accept packages from strangers? That if something sounds "too good to be true", it probably is. Sorry, but there's no excuse for not recognizing the signs of something being illegal. These boys committed a punishable crime in a foreign country. And she thinks lowering our hemlines is going to get them out?
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Linda Kropp Illinois,
Friday Jul 10, 2009
I am not Jewish but I dress modestly. I do it for several reasons, the first being my love for G-d. My love for HIm has caused me to care about others, the men who may struggle with lust. I am married. I understand that a man 'may' be drawn into lust by the way a woman dresses, or yes, even 'runs/jogs' in public. I lived in India for several years. One day while 'running' (I was only 21... : ) for a train, a young Indian man rode up to me on his bicycle and stopped me. He told me, "that ladies do not run in India." It made an impression and I haven't 'run' in public since... : )
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bj,
Friday Jul 10, 2009
Very interesting, indeed. I tend to agree with the author that harsh garment guidelines will do little for society, but rather, will simply continue to imprison women. I do think a lady should be modest, by all means. But don't blame societal problems on men not being as discrete with their eyes and thoughts as they expect women to be with their dress.
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Ron Price,
Friday Jul 10, 2009
Virtuall all of the comments overlook the starting point of the blog, which was the serious offence allegedly committed by the three young men. If found guilty they deserve to be punished according the local (i.e. Japanese) laws. Beyond possibly providing them with legal defence there is no justification for Israel or any other Jewish entity to intervene.
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SoCal Mother, California,
Friday Jul 10, 2009
Welcome back Mod! How's the job search going? Keep writing!!
23 |
Shalom, Cherry Hill,
Friday Jul 10, 2009
To Sandra #1, Joe #4 & Sherlock #5--You're all right in that there's absolutely nothing wrong with a shul or other organization asking people to dress or act up to certain standards. The question is whether it's part of an unhealthy trend. I don't know about London, but in seeing the overemphasis on such externals in the US & Israel, there's a good point here. For example--did you read of the Aussie ABC reporter who was spat on by many Hareidim in J'lem while covering a rally, because she turned on a tape recorder? Because she doesn't understand their 'sensitivity' for kavod Shabbat?!!?
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sz,
Friday Jul 10, 2009
Modesty seems to have 'tude problems with her past and present.
self absorbed in a world of compromises &the lack of modesty,
she and out of orbit Jews continually look for ways to go to the left.
You can feel the tension & pull in the comments.
A jew steeped in Torah &Mizvahs has the sensitivity & can
see all the dots connecting to create the greater picture.
A Jew or Jewess who has never cultivated organic/educated
Judaism will never see connections..
until the kids intermarry, until the xray shows some masses
or the recent memory goes & ol Jewish memories return..
too late!
25 |
moshe chicago,
Friday Jul 10, 2009
I think you're missing the point, Blase. I don't read the Rabbis as blaming the women for the tragedy of the 3 boys. Tragedies befall us in order to drive us to improve in any of the countless areas that need improvement. The Rabbis don't say that deficient Tznius observance caused this tragedy- they just said that Tzinus observance is lacking and needs improvement. They could have said improvement in observance of Lashon Hara, or davening with kavanah, or tzedakah all need improvement without identifying a cause.
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Former Hendon Jew (via Toronto) now in Atlanta.,
Friday Jul 10, 2009
I'm shomer negia,
My body's divine,
I cover my elbows,
and knees all the time.
Torah Day School of Atlanta, playground song, girl's section.
For Tzinius
cover elbows and knee'es.
TDSA playground song.
I'm shomer negia
my body's divine
I'll go home alone
Til I'm eighty nine.
sarcasm by TDSA parent of girls.
27 |
Steve C USA,
Friday Jul 10, 2009
It gets down to the basic question. Do you want to show respect for Hashem or not?
28 |
Cember,
Friday Jul 10, 2009
If I remember correctly, Adam and Eve covered their pubenda with fig leaves to maintain tzniut. #12 hits the nail on the head when he writes "Rabbis, who are steeped in the wisdom of Torah, are complete idiots as well as women haters who blame all the ills of the world on girls who don't dress modestly." All of the Abrahamic religions are misogynistic, presumably out of fear of women and/or latent homosexuality among the founding "fathers". What I can't follow is why a seemingly intelligent young woman like our Modesty would put up with the sexual harrassment inherent in Orthodoxy.
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Shalom, Cherry Hill,
Friday Jul 10, 2009
To sz & Steve, Perhaps the question is whether the constant emphasis on ever stricter chumras in dress and kashrut are helpful or harmful. Why don't any of these 'geshrais' from these Chareidi rabbis deal with 'bein adam le'chaveiro'? How about strongly condemning the violence in Beit Shemesh & J'lem? Emulating Aharon and being as strongly 'rodef shalom' as they've been in demonstrating? Or do we only remember the churban due to sinat chinam on Tisha B'Av, and then ignore it until next year?
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Cember,
Friday Jul 10, 2009
Steve, #27 -- And just how does covering up haShem's creation show respect? It would seem to do the opposite, and a case could be made that hiding the result of G_d's work is, in fact, Khillul haShem.
31 |
joe,
Friday Jul 10, 2009
I would agree with the writer. WHile this particular notice may not lay the blame on the dress of woman, there seems to be a trend in many religious communities that when tragedy happens there is some amount of blame or connection made to the way women are dressing/ lack of tznius standars. I personally beleive, as is written in many places, that hashem is kind and would not bring tragedy on people simple because of the length of there skirt or sleeves. dont understand why emphasis is on the external ( style of dress), and not not encourage people to be more honest and caring between ourselves.
32 |
Jake USA,
Friday Jul 10, 2009
I'm no rabbi, and I believe that immodest dress causes tons of problems (insecurity among modest woman would be the biggest one). The feminist movement was created by immoral men who wanted the milk without the cow. Woman deserve every human right that a man is granted, but to say that men & women are equal is simply incorrect. Men & women are different in many ways. I guess in a "free" democratic society, theres a catch-22 where women & men cant have separate roles in society. This may be the biggest flaw of western civilization, and like I said - I am no rabbi, just a young man with morals.
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Amanda in green pastures,
Friday Jul 10, 2009
The problem is that in the effort to follow the Law we have forgotten to include the motives of the heart. God is most interested in weather or not the heart (of a man, woman or child) is for or against Him. God desires our hearts. If we are giving Him the affection of our hearts then all else will fall into place in due time. If my heart is not behind the desire to serve God out of love for Him in how I dress then I will respond in rebellion and do the act of modesty but it will be void of any meaning to God because my heart is not in the action.
Think about it...
34 |
Rafoil B,
Friday Jul 10, 2009
I believe that the lack of modesty is one of the basic factors in societies ills. How you phrase it may step on toes, primarily of apicorus. It doesn't come before or after, it is symtomatic, just as stealing cheating and lying are indicative of spiritual ailment. I have my own challenges, but I think when some one finds themselves far away from tsnuit, they sometimes lash out against against the whole system. The proper response for me, is to be machmir on myself, and pray for the best......
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LUDDY, Marion, USA,
Saturday Jul 11, 2009
Should we obey man , or The Lord God , should we follow the low, dity, immorality of the world or OBEY The Lord God,it is a simple question, that has a very simple answer ?
If the LOve of the Lord God is in your heart/soul , you will follow His every Word , if not you will go the way of the world.
Shalom
36 |
Elizabeth, London,
Saturday Jul 11, 2009
Some years ago, when I was walking down a street in Safed, I came across a leaflet posted on a wall by some revivalist group. The leaflet, addressing itself to the passing women, demanded that they cover up ('nothing too tight, nothing too short') not for reasons of modesty but in order... to prevent terrorist attacks. This lead me to wonder if the IDF has not wised up to the lethal potential of mini skirts and body suits. If it can cause a terrorist offense, surely a mini skirt can aid in legitimate military operations just as well? By stealth will you make war...
37 |
Star Girl, Israel,
Saturday Jul 11, 2009
I agree that girls & women should dress modestly and that we have an impact on the world. But surely it isn't fair to ask religious girls who are ALREADY very modestly dressed to rev up their modesty even further and not do fast walking as exercise and not eat in public. Are these things so bad? Why is fast walking considered immodest if a girl is correctly dressed? With all my good intentions, I would not prepared to limit my life in these ways. It is asking too much.
38 |
Davey, Scranton,
Sunday Jul 12, 2009
What does tznius have to do with a couple of yeshiva boys being dumb enough to get involved with drug smuggling? I fail to see the kesher.
If I go to a shul and if there are girls who are dressed a little too sexy for shul, I tip my hat and look away from them. Isn't that the proper thing to do?
39 |
Concerned Mom, Israel,
Sunday Jul 12, 2009
It's hard for me to see the connection between 3 boys smuggling drugs and the dress of Jewish women. The Rabbi's response should have focused on the dangers of drugs and alcohol among the youth in the religious/yeshiva system. There is a huge problem that exists and institutions and parents must be made aware of it and taught how to deal with it. Blaming Jewish women for every problem under the sun a pretty pathetic way to avoid dealing with real issues and allowing leaders and educators keep their heads in the sand.
40 |
esther,
Sunday Jul 12, 2009
Modesty Blase is as always spot on. Why is it that the immediate response of the male religous leadership is to blame the women and to demand women take on stringent (and not halachik) limitations upon themselves? Why is the immediate response of so many religous women to accept this blame and even initiate it? And of course as has already been commented the actual issues at hand are totally ignored which means that similar situations will occur in the future. But than again, when that happens, we know exactly who to blame.
41 |
david menachester,
Sunday Jul 12, 2009
#21 Ron.You say "If found guilty they deserve to be punished according the local (i.e. Japanese) laws" why do you belive that if found guilty, they are guilty. This is not necessarily true.
42 |
david manchester,
Sunday Jul 12, 2009
#26. Why do you send your kids to that school, if you think they are wrong, send them to a school which dosen't educate the children about tznius.
#29 & #31, Tznius is seen as being a very powerful weapon to help reduce Hashem's wrath, as you will note from the comments above how people fight to resist changing in this area.
#30 & #31, It is not for us to decide, either you want to be guided by Torah or by your own logic.
#39 focusing on education will not help the ones in jail
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david manchester,
Sunday Jul 12, 2009
#33 If you want to know whether Hashem is in your heart, see whether you follow his laws, irrespective of whether you do so even if you don't want to, or if you don't understand why. This shows love for Hashem in it's highest form and has the most meaning to Him. Think about it....
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Shalom, Cherry Hill,
Tuesday Jul 14, 2009
#42-- As I recall, David, the most commonly accepted reason for the destruction of the 2nd Beit HaMikdash was sinat chinam-- not tzniut. Therefore, it seems strange to me that the Rabbis today (who will say that they are on a much lesser level than those of previous generations) would focus so strongly on tzniut and not Sin'at Chinam. It seems that our own mesorah argues against that strong focus. Couldn't they at least try a 50 / 50 approach? With all the violence in Jlem & Beit Shemesh, for example, there certainly is plenty for them to talk about in that realm.
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David, Manchester,
Tuesday Jul 14, 2009
#44. Each generation has it's own evils, and particular trials & sins that play a major role in the success or otherwise of the Jewish people at any particulat time. We have to trust our Rabbis to advise and guide us in this area. Logic might suggest a 50/50 approach or some other approach, but we are not guided by logic
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Shalom, Cherry Hill,
Wednesday Jul 15, 2009
David-- "...but we are not guided by logic"-- that's obvious.
47 |
Cember,
Wednesday Jul 15, 2009
David Manchester:
If you promise not to try to enforce your religious fanaticism in my streets, I am willing to promise not to try to think in your yeshiva or shul. Also, please note (re # 41) that the Japanese court system has a far better reputation for fairness and honesty than does the Israeli Rabbinical court system. If found guilty by a Japanese court, the odds are overwhelmingly in favour of the accused being guilty. If they had been found guilty by a Rabbinical court, that would only mean that they didn't have the right yikhus to get them off.
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David, Manchester,
Thursday Jul 16, 2009
#47 Even if one was to accept that the Japanese court system has a good reputation, and to ignore your irrelevant snide remarks about the Israeli Rabbinate, my statement that if they are found guilty, does not necessarily mean they are guilty, still stands. This is especaily so, as the Japanese have no understanding of Religious Jews.
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Cember,
Friday Jul 17, 2009
#48 - What "understanding of Religious Jews" is required to determine if they entered the country with undeclared illegal drugs? If they didn't declare the drugs, then they clearly knew that their importation into Japan was illegal. If they didn't obtain the drugs from the chemist's, they also knew that the drugs themselves were illegal. How does being a religious Jew affect smuggling of illegal drugs? If proper evidence was presented that they entered Japan with undeclared illegal drugs, then they are guilty. As to my reemarks about the Israeli Rabbinate, see the Noga Zoraish case.
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David, Manchester,
Sunday Jul 19, 2009
#49 It is not disputed that they entered Japan with illegal drugs. The question that is being decided by the Japanese courts is whether they were aware that these drugs were unknowingly hidden in the false bottom of the cases or they were duped into taking the cases believing they were doing someone a chesed. This is not a matter that can be proven either way. Japanese courts do not understand the concept of Chesed, so automatically think that their story is false. Noga Zoraish wasn't dealt with by the Rabbinate, she was dealt with by the Israeli non (read anti) orthodox court system.
51 |
Bonnie Canada,
Sunday Aug 02, 2009
If we decide to abolish all minimal standards, what have we left?
52 |
Cember,
Thursday Aug 06, 2009
#50 - When one gets onto a plane, one of the questions asked is "Are you carrying anything that was given to you by someone else?". If they said "No", then they lied, and clearly were not acting out of chesed. If they answered "Yes", then the bag would have been carefully checked, particularly for false bottoms. As to Japanese courts not understanding the concept of chesed, you're making a broad anti-Japanese slur, as you are declaring that kindness to friends is foreign to Japanese culture. I know my translation isn't perfect, but even so, the concept exists in all cultures.
53 |
Jeanie - Texas,
Wednesday Oct 07, 2009
I'm late to the conversation & doubtful anyone will see this, but why so much legalism about physical appearance, particularly women? It's absurd and we all know it's used as a means of controlling others just for the hell of it. Yes, one should use common sense when going out in public, but let's face it - we all have our own interpretation of the word "modesty" and we're choking on gnats here. A dog is still a dog regardless of what the cat is wearing, so why blame the cat? I hereby declare all men are to wear orange & fushia polka-dot bowties until further notice. No exceptions!!
54 |
Cember,
Friday Oct 09, 2009
Jeanie: The problem is that the hyper-pious of any of the misogynistic Abrahamic religions seem to believe that all men are governed by their gonads, and therefore have strict rules that attempt to limit the pious horn-dogs. Since the rules are made by men, their method is precisely "blam[ing] the cat". That's why Orthodox women cover their hair, wear (usually) frumpy looking long skirts, and cover the skin on their upper bodies. Ditto for some Protestant sects. The Catholics used to put nuns into modified burkhas. Pious Moslems still do the burkha bit, or modify it with hijab and veil.
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