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Thursday Jul 30, 2009
Human Rights or Human Life Posted by Seth Mandell
Comments: 35
Two summers ago, Camp Koby, the camp for children bereaved by Palestinian terror named after my 13-year-old son Koby Mandell, hosted then-foreign minister Tzipi Livni and the UN Special Rapporteur On The Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied Since 1967. The Special Reporteur had just returned from Sederot, where he had been introduced to the trauma of living under the reign of rocket terror perpetrated at that time and until Operation Cast Lead by the Hamas "government" in the Gaza Strip. The Foreign Ministry thought it would be appropriate to use Camp Koby as a backdrop for the meeting. In return, Livni and the UN representative addressed Camp Koby teens. At dinner I was surprised to see Tzipi reading from a script when addressing the Reporteur. I was less surprised to hear the Special Reporteur, who worked for the notoriously anti-Israel "UN Commission on Human Rights" talk about the alleged violation of human rights perpetrated by the Israelis. "But sir," I said, "The restrictions on the Palestinian population are a result of actions by the Palestinian terrorists who are trying to murder innocent Israelis like my 13-year-old son Koby. Sometimes it comes down to a choice between human rights and human life." Tzipi looked at me, a bit surprised. "Yes," she said "human rights or human life, that is the question." She seemed to like the phrase, as did I, and repeated it several times. But the Special Reporteur was unmoved, and Tzipi continued to her next point. I was reminded of this encounter when reading about an upcoming Rabbis for Human Rights conference that will, according to The Jerusalem Post, "scrutinize the moral, legal and religious dimensions of Operation Cast Lead." The Army quite rightly has decided not to participate in what will no doubt be an Israel Defense Force bashing festival of leftist de-legitimization by Breaking the Silence, B'Tzelem and others. According to the Post article, one member of Rabbis for Human Rights, who defines himself as a Conservative Jew, will argue that "According to Jewish law, every precaution should be taken to prevent the loss of civilian lives on the enemy side, even if it means that more of our soldiers get killed." This argument is patently false. According to the article, the source for this principle is a Talmudic text in the tractate Sanhedrin (7a). In the text, a Jew is being threatened with death if he does not agree to kill another Jew. The Amoraic sage Rava rules that it is forbidden to save one's own life by killing another Jew because "your blood is not redder than his." Thus, goes the argument, Jewish law forbids the army to risk the lives of noncombatants on the Palestinian side to protect the lives of IDF soldiers. The problem with this argument is first, the Talmudic passage talks explicitly about two Jewish lives, and, rightly or wrongly by today's liberal standards, the Talmud consistently draws halachic distinctions between a Jew's obligations toward Gentiles and his or her obligations to other Jews. More importantly, the Talmud here refers to a case of cold-blooded murder, not "risking the lives of non-combatants." But Jewish law aside, we are left with the broader question of whether the Israeli government can restrict the human rights of the Palestinians in Judea, Samaria and Gaza (by closing their borders, invading their territory etc.) to protect human life, i.e. the lives of Israeli citizens. More narrowly, the question is whether Israel has an obligation or even the moral right to risk the lives of its sons and daughters in the military by conducting a war against an enemy sworn to its destruction in a way that does not minimize soldiers' risk of death or injury? The members of Rabbis For Human Rights and the other organizers of the upcoming conference seem to believe that the human rights of the Palestinians are more important than the lives of Israelis. They seem willing to risk the lives of our children and even (through territorial compromise) the existence of the State of Israel to protect the human rights of the Palestinians. Our enemies in the Arab world, of course, pretend to agree, despite the fact they have no commitment to human rights in their own societies. Our friends in the West agree - as long as it's not their lives put at risk - and the so-called neutral agents of the UN agree because human rights has become their highest value, at least when it concerns Israel. But let it be clear that choosing Palestinian rights over Israeli lives endangers not only individual Israelis but the physical existence of the Jewish state. Those Jews who display their ignorance or deceit by misrepresenting the Talmud play into the hands of those who care about neither human life nor human rights.
1 |
Zvi Canada,
Thursday Jul 30, 2009
Terrible article Mr. Mandell. In the modern world we don't make distinctions on the value of lives by race or ethnicity. Your argument would have better fit 1952 Germany better than our supposedly democratic state.
Not only that, but you assert the false dichotomy that the only way to be safe is to deny others their rights, a dangerous one when you consider that that is an argument that the palestinians (the value of whose lives you don't believe in apparently) can easily use against us. Israel after all, has killed 10 times more of them than they have of us.
You should feel ashamed.
2 |
Aryeh (not the knuk) Tapuach,
Thursday Jul 30, 2009
Seth, This is a great article. It goes straight to the point.
3 |
Jen USA,
Thursday Jul 30, 2009
Mr. Mandell, Please don't tell me that you believe a Jewish life, Jewish liberty and Jewish happiness are more valid than all others. Your life is no more relevant, more important or more moral than that of a Palestinian father. Your son Koby was no better nor more innocent than a Palestinian child living in the terror that is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Your argument is just old-fashioned bigotry and racism. You should check yourself.
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Jan, Australia,
Friday Jul 31, 2009
As usual your observation is pertinent. All have a right to their life. Even today Abel's blood cries from the ground against Cain. Any person who lifts up their hand to take another's life in anger and hate for that person(s), is condemned. Thus, those who sent rockets to Sderot in hate, to kill- the blood is on their head and they will never have peace. For those who kill by accident, in defence, with no hate in their heart- there was the cities of refuge. It is Israel's tragedy that their value system of love, and value for life is faced daily by another value system of hate, doom & death.
5 |
Avrohom - Israel,
Friday Jul 31, 2009
Zvi #1, you would protect your family from attack before you would protect a stranger from attack, all things being equal. Jews are brethren, we are one family. If someone is threatening one of us it is our obligation to stop the threat even up to taking the life of the attacker. You call this racist. Yet you would protect your family first also. Are you a racist. What bothers you, Zvi? Is it the fact the all Jews are one family? Nobody is denying rights to tnayone. Nobody said anything about not believing in the life of a Palestinian. Arabs murder Jews as a principle. You should feel ashamed.
6 |
emmitt22,
Friday Jul 31, 2009
Seth,
perfect article.
7 |
Jean - Georgia,
Friday Jul 31, 2009
#1. I have to keep putting out the same information. Please feel ashamed for manipulating numbers for your purpose of insulting the auther. The number of Israelis and others civilians killed by Muslim/PA/Fatah terrorists compared to palestinian civilians killed by a lone Jewish or Christian terrorist, is about 2000 to 1. Now you can mention wars or military actions - the ratio is reversed. However, the Arabs gambled, harassed, attacked, and lost. So what? Too bad.
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phil australia,
Friday Jul 31, 2009
You are right on Seth. Since when is it ok for terrorists to kill innocent children and blow up adults. Zivi from the first comment is making your point for you. He is saying that Jewish life is worth less. How is it more ok to kill a kid doing his job as a soldier? If a country is not under attack, the soldiers are border protection and helping during natural disasters. Noone would die, Zivi does not seem to understand Israel is at war. Any other country on this planet would have acted when the first rocket was fired, not the six thousandth. And with enough force it would never happen again.
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bannister , USA,
Friday Jul 31, 2009
Your Innocent son lost his life because the Palestinians violently oppose your living on their land.
Since some Palestinians are violent in their opposition and kill innocents you in turn feel it is fair and right to punish the innocent Palestinians collectively for the sins of a few.
Tell us again why your punishing the innocent is more moral than the Violent Palestinians punishing your innocents?
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Sane Simon,
Friday Jul 31, 2009
to Zvi of Canada: FIrst give Canada back to the Native Canadian Indians. Then I will be able to listen to your talk about democracy and human rights. LEAVE CANADA or you live as a foreign genocidal colonial hypocrite.
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Bertie - Paris,
Friday Jul 31, 2009
It's not human rights vs. human life as you try to make us believe. It's in fact "palestinians lives vs. israelis lives", and you article is VERY clear about the respective price (and difference of price) between the two. Please remind us how many israelis where killed by rockets from Gaza... two, three? It seems the argument could be easily reverted : palestinian lives were taken to enforce the human right to live in sderot in security! So you're right, "human life vs. human rights" : the IDF choose "rights". Israelis rights, that is to say...
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Bertie - Paris,
Friday Jul 31, 2009
Another comment : operation "cast lead" was a question of "palestinian civilians lives vs. israelis soldiers lives". Is it better to protect soldiers at the possible expense of civilians lives, or should we accept some soldiers casualties because we try our best not to kill civilians. The Geneva convention says you should protect civilians even if it puts your soldiers at risk : in this article you admit the IDF and Israel in general goes for the other option!
13 |
Chris, Israel,
Friday Jul 31, 2009
to #1
Zvi, race and ethnicity put aside, it is the responsibility of any government to protect lives of its citizens. In fact, Western World takes it much farther in discriminating against foreign citizens - the tough immigration laws in Canada, US and EU are the obvious proof. Scholarships, unemployment and medical benefits are also usually very different for citizen and non-citizens of any country. Nobody seems to have a problem with a government treating its citizens in a preferential way, as long as they do not talk about Israel...
14 |
Meir, Jerusalem,
Friday Jul 31, 2009
Great Article. Of course we care more about our soldiers than about Palestinians. Every country cares more about it's soldiers and civilians that about those of an enemy population.
15 |
Gábor Fränkl,
Friday Jul 31, 2009
Zvi, CDN 1. the only problem with your comment is the unassailable fact that even the government and authorities of Canada can uphold the standards of "on the value of lives by race or ethinicity" as evidenced by the fact that naturally it still prefers its OWN citizens to the, say, Americans for example. In this way there is not a shred of difference between CDN or Israel. 2. In fact as Irhad Manji ex-Islam human rights activist noted: "even my own country don't raise the standards as high as Israel" - meaning that not even his own state provides in 3 different languages on road signs.
16 |
Matt,
Friday Jul 31, 2009
Seth, you are exactly right. Every "injustice" suffered by the Palestinians have been a direct result of their own actions.
17 |
David USA,
Friday Jul 31, 2009
"<<<
18 |
BigJew, Israel,
Friday Jul 31, 2009
to #1. you are clearly illiterate. His point was that some guy calling himself a Rabbi completely misinterpreted a Talmudic source and then used it to bolster his bs hippie human rights claims. He was just pointing out the guy's ignorance. If he wants to make some hippie claim then fine but don't use phoney baloney arguments.
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amsat,
Saturday Aug 01, 2009
Yes I agree with that,Human must know their rights..
Todd DiRoberto
[ Link to page ]
20 |
Jean - Georgia,
Saturday Aug 01, 2009
Jen-USA - of all the bloggers I've read, you are the one with absolutely no shame. You've dropped off the Ziad blog, so I guess he's not responding to you as you desire.
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Sally - U.S.A.,
Saturday Aug 01, 2009
The problem with the readers who oppose Mr. Mandell's article and his position is that they seem incapable of distinguishments, parse words and resort to ad hominem attacks. If their goal is honestly and truly to add a comment to make peace, perhaps they should take the same mechanisms with which they attack Mr. Mandell and shine it on themselves.
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Steven Davis-USA,
Saturday Aug 01, 2009
"Were all the human ideals to be given to me on the one hand and Israeli security on the other, I would choose Israeli sceurity, because while it is good that there be a world full of peace, fraternity, justice and honesty, it is even more important that we be in it." David Ben-Gurion
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Jean - Georgia,
Saturday Aug 01, 2009
#9 - oh, great helpful suggestion Bannister name or place. "Would the innocent palestinians line up over here and the not-so-innocent palestinians line up over there please - so we can tell you apart?"
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shalom Pollack jerusalem,
Sunday Aug 02, 2009
It is not about land Land was offered and given ad nauseum. The result - ever inresing kiling and hatred taught .. It is not about what Israel does, rather it is about what Israel is -
period.. Is it moral for a country to prefer having her mothers cry over their sons rather than the cruel enemy cry over theirs? Israel should indeed be a light unto the nation - but not a memorial light to her own destruction
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Adam Rockville, MD,
Sunday Aug 02, 2009
Israel and the IDF had every right to rip the band aid off and literally make Gaza uninhabitable if need be. Not one Israeli soldier should have died as the IDF had every right and responsibility to wage war against those hate mongering Arabs. If I were in charge those Arabs would have been without electricity, and fuel in 2000 when the rockets started. If they kept up I would have engaged in a massive noise pollution campaign against the populace, not letting them sleep or have a moments peace. If that did not work I would have flooded them with sea water and so on.
26 |
Adam Rockville, MDt,
Sunday Aug 02, 2009
As for the Jews and Israeli politicians who take our enemies side - they deserve to thrown out of the only Jewish country in the world and sent to live in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Iran or wherever. If Israel had one ounce of sense it would totally disengage from the UN and ban all members of the UN from entering the country under any circumstance. Call them what they are, archaic, monstrous, anti-Jews! Why do some Jews insist upon being treated as "normal"? Seth, do not invite the likes of the UN and Livni to your precious camp - the campers are traumatized enough!
27 |
Abe - USA,
Sunday Aug 02, 2009
Disappointing article because it ignores that killing in self defense is sanctioned by the Torah. The sugya used by the rabbis for human rights is simply not on point. Mr. Mandell fell into their trap by arguing for an unpopular distinction between Jews and Gentiles.
28 |
From New Holland,
Sunday Aug 02, 2009
Rellocation: Unwanted Human Cargo ... Well you have plenty of ships - use them with food supplied and portable toilets can be provided, for the Palestinian people to be placed far away from the Middle-East, Europe and Asia.
29 |
Roddy Frankel,
Sunday Aug 02, 2009
The UN Special Rapporteur, and many liberals, argue that by limiting Palestinians' freedom of movement with security checkpoints, the IDF infringes on their "human rights." This is silly and disingenuous. Using this logic, every time I pass through airport security, my human rights are violated. If the charge is that the IDF discriminates against Palestinians, then this is justified for two reasons: West Bank Palestinians are not Israeli citizens (by their own choice), and they are in a self declared state of war against Israel. Good faith security measures are not human rights violations.
30 |
KP Ryan UK,
Sunday Aug 02, 2009
As we painfully learnt from Northern Ireland the death of one child and the bereavement of one family in this conflict is one too many - period.
31 |
Avrohom - Israel,
Monday Aug 03, 2009
bannister , USA #9, so you equate murdering Jewish children by Arab terrorists with building security barriers that create some hardships for all people in our country in the name of defensive measures. You are a very sick person.
32 |
Navi Civoknot,
Monday Aug 03, 2009
Israely ocupation against all world protest of Palesina teritory is the clear provocation on palestinias people. Having violantly taken there homes and all pssesion confiscated of israely authorities and people comming from whole world in name of juish religion to humiliate palestinians. What is cruel of all of you supporting this rasistic behaviur of israleis and calling you gods people. So your god is only for israelis and palestinians have no historical rights to the Palestina/own state. Once resism aginst jews is today legitim for isral to be openly a rasist state.
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Lily, Ontario (Canada),
Tuesday Aug 04, 2009
If there was a bully in the schoolyard that pounced on my child, I would stop him without killing him. This is not to say that the IDF cannot engage in coordinated efforts toward self-defence of a nation. However, the line is unclear when considering that, in biblical times, most cases of violation might have been situations of hand-to-hand combat--not using weapons of destruction. I do not question the use of checkpoints to maintain security. My only hope is that Israel will not incur the wrath of a world that's unfortunately convinced that she is an aggressor, not indeed a peace-lover.
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Jean-Georgia,
Monday Aug 17, 2009
to 32 Navi. man get a bible and get educated from it so you have some background to know of what you're speaking. You do a disservice to your name.
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Avrohom - Israel,
Thursday Aug 20, 2009
Navi Civoknot #32, too bad you disregard facts in favir of your ignorance and racism. Clear provocation? Well, Navi, Arabs attacked us in 48, 56, 67, 73, the 80s, 90s and now. How is that for provocation? We accpeted Arabs having a country on half our indipsutable, eternal homeland. Arabs accept us on no land they claim is theirs. How is that for provocation? You are a fool and a racist.
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