Thursday Oct 30, 2008

Koch's Comments: Who has more freedom?

Posted by Ed Koch
Comments: 16
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I was truly astonished to read the recent comments of two British experts who, in The New York Times of October 22nd, criticized the United States "for what they described as its overly militaristic approach to fighting terrorism and warned of a further erosion of civil liberties." 

 The two "experts" are Stella Rimington, former director general of Britain's domestic intelligence agency MI5. The other is Ken MacDonald, the top prosecutor for England and Wales who assails what he refers to as the "Guantanamo model, in which the rights of defendants are severely curtailed or eliminated by governments in search of a response to the terrorism threat." According to the Times, Ms. Rimington says "that she hoped the next president would stop using the phrase 'war on terror.' She also said there had been a huge overreaction to the attacks on September 11, 2001, explaining it 'got us off on the wrong foot because it made people think terrorism was something you could deal with by force of arms primarily.'"

I pretend no special expertise on how to deal with terror suspects, but I do believe there is a vast difference between criminal acts generally involving individuals or a small group engaged in a conspiracy to commit a crime, as opposed to terrorist acts. Criminals are attempting to make an illegal buck or engage in random or premeditated acts of violence. Terrorists, on the other hand, are seeking to impose their will on government and affect its foreign policy.

In the case of Islamic terrorists, they are part of a worldwide conspiracy aimed at bringing the West to its knees. For example, the 19 Muslim terrorists on 9/11 were really enemy soldiers on a mission to inflict terrible damage on America. In my view, terrorist suspects should not be afforded the same rights as ordinary criminals. But what about terror suspects who are US citizens?

The several Americans charged with terrorist acts have sought in various federal courts, including the United States Supreme Court, to be treated differently than non-Americans held under similar charges. To date, so far as I know, those attempts have not been successful. In the case of Jose Padilla, the Supreme Court refused to hear his appeal and made a decision that upheld the President's authority to designate him and detain him as an "enemy combatant." Padilla was subsequently convicted. In the case of John Walker Lindh, he pleaded guilty and did not pursue appeals, accepting a plea bargain. So the net affect is to keep open these constitutional issues. I have great confidence that the United States Supreme Court will try to apply common sense and justice when and if it takes up these matters.

The fanatical Islamists take as part of their religious obligation the forced conversion of the infidel. Christians and Jews who refuse to convert or pay tribute and recognize the superiority of Islam are to be killed. 

Last week, there were reports in both Iraq and India of attacks on Christians in both of those countries -- in Iraq by Muslims and in India apparently by fanatical Hindus.

I fear a lessening of support in the war on terror worldwide. We in the Western world, particularly in the US, lead a good life in comparison to much of the rest of the world.  But many are unwilling to pay the price for protecting that freedom. The Islamic terrorists look forward to death as martyrs as a result of their killing infidels, entitling them to be taken to heaven, where they will enjoy the services of 72 virgins.

It was shocking when Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury and head of the Anglican Church said that adoption of parts of sharia law were "unavoidable," and "certain conditions of sharia are already recognized in our society."

The two British experts say they are concerned about the way we pursue terrorists, endangering American rights of privacy. Yet, as The Times points out, "the intrusion on individual privacy here [Great Britain] is greater than in America. Surveillance cameras are ubiquitous - in subway stations, in residential neighborhoods, on highways - and their pervasiveness is one reason that the police were able to track within 24 hours the travels of the cars used in the failed bombing attempts in London and on the Glasgow airport in 2007. The surveillance has probably made the British citizenry the most watched in the world, outside of Singapore."

Our very lives and the survival of our civilization in the war against Islamic terrorism are at stake. This war will go on for many years. Do we have the intestinal fortitude and sufficient belief in our Western civilization to fight for it no matter how long the battle, I frankly am no longer sure. In Great Britain, there have been many more terrorist acts then in the US since 9-11. Is it because of our vigilance and war on terror and Britain's determination to treat the Islamic terrorist attacks as crimes, rather than as terror conducted by mortal enemies of freedom?

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1  |  James Burke, Canada, Thursday Oct 30, 2008
Ed " SARAH PALIN SCARES ME - THERE ARE OTHER ISSUES TOO LIKE THE ENVIRONMENT AND HOMOSEXUAL RIGHTS " Koch ( CNN aug 2008 ) Sorry Mr Mayor but if you feel that the USA is is determined to fight against terror and not appease it how can you support Barak Hussein Obama with his ties to Kalidi and Edward Said?? We will not forget your endorsement of Obama nor will we forget the endorsement of BO by Dersohowitz. That blocks out anything you will ever write in the future.
2  |  E. Bennatan, Ra'anana, Israel, Thursday Oct 30, 2008
Of course Ed Koch is right. Temporary curtailment of some liberties is not only occasionally justified, it is occasionally essential for a society to survive. It is what Israel's former chief justice Aharon Barak refers to as "defensive democracy". It describes, for example, the justification for the use of force against a terrorist who has buried a child alive with limited air supply, or who has hidden a ticking bomb in a school. Barak's book "The judge in a democracy" published by the Princeton University Press (2006), is well worth reading (there are some excellent excepts on the Internet).
3  |  J. Benjamin, New York, Thursday Oct 30, 2008
Astonishment at pacifist statements from British civil servants is a bit dramatic, don't you think, Mr. Mayor? These are the British, you will remember, they of the Neville Chamberlain stripe. The pacifist streak in the UK runs deeper than the Earth is wide. 1776 looks better and better all the time.
4  |  Said, London, Thursday Oct 30, 2008
You say: "Terrorists, on the other hand, are seeking to impose their will on government and affect its foreign policy." Well, the USA is involved in a world-wide conspiracy to bring every nation on the face of the Earth under its imperialist yoke, as explained by John Perkins and Greg Palast, among others. So who really has the moral highground? I think both parties have a bloody and immoral record. For one side to claim the moral highground over the other (as both sides tend to) shows how right Aeschylus was: there no longer is any truth, there's merely slogans and propaganda.
5  |  Shalom, Friday Oct 31, 2008
Mr. Koch, as the other gentleman noted , we won't forget your endorsment of Obama who is clearly pro arab. Theeadersa of this great newspaper are not interested in your rubbish. You should shame yourself!
6  |  Jered D., Friday Oct 31, 2008
I'm a U.S. citizen and I fully support Israel. I'm so thankful that that The Third Temple will be rebuilt, Jesus Christ's second coming is near. May God bless us through these terrible times ahead. Through this NWO agenda backed by the E.U., U.S. and the U.N. will have devastating consequences. The U.S. corrupt evil govt. is invoking a 2nd Revolution upon U.S. citizens. This govt. has turned into a fascist state, with all kinds of lucrative bills being passed under president bush.Colin Powell, Joe Biden and other politicians have warned the U.S. of a soon major crisis.Will Martial Law be here?
7  |  Jered U.S.,OK, Friday Oct 31, 2008
If the U.S. president signs Directive 51 Martial Law will be upon ever U.S. American citizen. This is so Unconstitutional, our lives are being threatened here and are rights. Check the facts there are 800 FEMA camps dispursed throughout the U.S. Are we about to see another holocaust? I'm very serious. If Americans are against the NWO will they call us terrorists? The world is about to see a 2nd Revolution.The NWO is the beast in Revelations 13 and the U.S. is Babylon the Great, Revelations 17 and 18, that will fall. Jeremiah50:15 ...She surrenders her TOWERS FALL, 9/11 her walls are torn down.
8  |  Dave, New York, USA, Friday Oct 31, 2008
The West has become so foolish and soft, that people like Koch have become confused. Koch is, obviously, correct here. But it should be apparent to any thinking person. However, America is (and the West in general) has been promoting the interests of causes detrimental to the success of democracy for so long, that it is rare to hear an honest word from a western political leader. Our own nonesense is clouding our ability to reason, and be honest. Koch, draws the line at the prosecution of terror (a euphemism for Islamis fundamentalism). Ha! He should vote with his convictions.
9  |  Mark, Boston, Friday Oct 31, 2008
Have you lost your mind? How can you disagree with Rimington and MacDonald and endorse Obama at the same time? He shares their views. He will make the US more vulnerable to terrorism as a result.
10  |  AmericanWoman, Friday Oct 31, 2008
By definition, Bill Ayers is a terrorist and a traitor. Obama has no intestinal fortitude, honest voters can't even ask him probing questions without intimidation. He threw 3 newspapers off his plane who don't cowtow to him blindly, they are being replaced by ones who will. The mainstream media has turned fascist, too, and covers up news if it reflects on their Chosen One poorly, including voter fraud in the primaries. What are you doing? Hypocrite. Your behavior toward Gov Palin was bigoted, sexist and you support the murder of unborn children who have no voice, but you never shut up!
11  |  Aaron Levy-Forsythe, Bethesda, MD, USA, Friday Oct 31, 2008
I think when discussing a criticism of US civil liberties by a the former MI5 Director and the former top prosecutor for England and Wales, it is worth pointing out the UK's awful domestic civil liberties record. The country has Orwellian security cameras watching every move. Irish people have been wrongly accused of terrorism (think of the Guildford Four). There is no guarantee of freedom of speech; authors who have rightly accused Saudis of funding terror have been sued into silence. What chutzpah for Brits to accuse the US of being wrong on civil liberties! The UK has a lot to learn!
12  |  Ted, California, Sunday Nov 02, 2008
The capacity of some people for self-deception is amazing. Think about it - we could have a crime-free country simply by legalizing all crime! UK is well on its way to reach that ideal: once Sharia law is accepted, all its barbaric practices become legal. We are about to elect a President whose thinking runs much in the same direction, if not worse. Once we are on that slippery slope it will be very difficult - if not impossible - to go back. Is Mr. Koch aware of the contradictions in his own thinking?
13  |   friday,NY, Wednesday Nov 05, 2008
Islamists have been promoting a way of life good only for male bedouins who will enjoy in paradise cool waters,shade,fruit and the services of 72 virgins.What will the moslem women enjoy?There is nothing for them in Paradise.In the Koran chapter the "Spoils" 8:41 says "one fifth of your spoils shall belong to God,the Apostle,THE APOSTLES KINFOLK.." If moslem women get their human rights ,Islam will collapse! The Koran is directly derived from the Old Testament.I urge every nonmoslem to spend ~10$ and 1 weekend to read it.Only thus we can understand the Islam 's aim for world domination
14  |  pappou,NY, Wednesday Nov 05, 2008
The muslims reading the Koran = recitation -recited by Angel Gabriel to Mohhamad ,but actually copied from the Old Testament- in a cave-learn that all other religions are heresies,and the heretics must either be converted to Islam or be conquered by Islam and pay taxes to Moslems. That is what will befall Mankind if we continue to be ignorant of the writings in the Koran.And remember :the many contradictory passages in the Koran are interpreted by the Ayatollahs as they please and accept no argument to the contrary! Islam=submission!
15  |  Odesa, Friday Nov 07, 2008
Who are the terrorists is the key question. I disagree, with the narrow definition used by the media. Would it help to consider as a terrorist, any individual, group of people,organization or the governament who engage willfully in killing innocents, for some gains including political, racial or religious. Who are those, who kill in thousends innocent villagers in Afganistan...freedom fighters?
16  |  Kevin Wallace USA, Wednesday Dec 03, 2008
Stella Rimington ,Ken MacDonald SORRY had to comment again doesnt the Bristish GOVT, recall why they lost the AMERICAN REVOULTIONARY WAR? It is tempid ideas like these two Intelligent human beigns, whom GOD loves, as well as he loves terrorists . But i think GOD has more mercy, and also knows when to step on the snakes head as well. I am going to get off this site as an AMERICAN I just cant stand to hear ignorance. What ever happend to a no crap type of mentality when it comes to defending those you love and the country you love as well. But wait that is just for the terrorists.
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Koch's Comments New York's legendary Jewish former mayor Ed Koch scopes out the scene in the US.

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Ginger C. Nevada: In the state of Oregon all gasoline stations are required to pump their customers gasoline. Oregon residents as well as people passing through Oregon are presented with and required to allow this attendant to pump their gas. It created many jobs for Oregon residents. I believe If we made this a United States wide requirement It would help the economy. Just imagine, if every gas station is required to have 1 attendant on staff during business hours for every 4-6 pumps. Now think how many jobs could be available If this gas pumping requirement was enforced.
Michael J Katz: You are precisely on the mark ( as usual ). TARP is providing funds to the banks, but the banks are hiding the funds in their " mattress" ie reserves. The damage is from lending shutting down, not depleted reserves. It is axiomatic that a program to reinvigorate the banks had to be coupled with a program to lend and to turn the money around to creditworthy borrowers. TARP is looking more like a program to guarantee year-end bonuses to chieftains of failed banking enterprises.
el elx: Ed, could you please give us the name of that pathetic little girl so worried about Daddy's job that she cries all the way to school? Does she live on the Upper West Side in Manhattan in a $7M home, or in Spanish Harlem? Do you trust her daddy to tell you such a story or are you creating straw babies? You've become a shameless shill, Ed, from being a respected voice. I think you should blame George Bush for that as you have for everything else in your so-called life. Goodbye Ed; go; fade away to Miami Beach! Nothing will so become New York as your fond farewell!