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Monday Feb 11, 2008
Ramallah for Real: What would Apple do Posted by Tom Kenis
Comments: 32
"Things are a lot more uh, uh...complex...I got certain information. Certain things have come to light...Uh... It might not be just such a simple... uh...you know?" Ask a Middle East expert to explain, clear and succinct, what in God's holy name is the thing with Israelis and Palestinians, and you'll often get no more than incoherent Lebowskian blather. "Lot of ins and outs", to use the parlance of our times. People however crave categorical beams of truth, clarity, and my very own boots on the ground are often unrealistically expected to purvey just that. "Who's right?" "Who's wrong?" or, to paraphrase my uncle; "Whos doing what to who now?" Condensing the megillah for outsiders, to 'Fox' it down most often portends an affront, both to accuracy and to one or other party. Leave it to the experts then, or on the far side of that spectrum, the kiddie news channels? If we answer "no" to that question, does the answer necessarily entail common denominator hogwash, a diplomatic gibberish that ends up saying nothing at all? Business schools and design gurus often entice students to dream up innovative ways to look at old problems. The exercise is called 'What Would Apple Do?' To apply it to a geopolitical conundrum in itself requires a contortionist's stretch of the imagination. Walkmans, phones and computers are machines. Not people. They were not handed down from a cloud. People invented them. Then after a while, other people took a long hard look, and invented them again. And better. Perhaps we can't reinvent human relations. But it just might be possible to un-clutter the analyzing bit. Whittle away the extraneous. Peer into the core and make it truly accessible to all but the mentally impaired. By means of a series of assertions and questions I will attempt to do just that; The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict For Dummies if you will. Don't try this at home. And if you do, wear lab-goggles and protective gloves at all times. Here we go; 1. What's the deal here? 2. How the hell did that happen? The survivors escaped to Palestine, an area run by the British at the heart of the Middle East where long ago a Jewish state existed. To reestablish a nation-state there was deemed the only way to prevent future persecution. Reasonably so. They called it a land without people for a people without a land. In reality however, the area was already populated. Concurrent with the Jewish desire for a homeland, there existed a Palestinian national movement led by a class of scholars and notables, desirous of emancipation from Turkish, and later British control. 3. Can we undo the past? Both parties need to keep in mind but a single phrase: "They're here, they ain't going nowhere, live with it." 4. Who fired the first shot? 5. The Israeli army acts in self-defense. Palestinians target civilians. It's a conflict, and both sides happily transgress into the murk where revenge and defense become indistinguishable. Here of course the media play a pivotal role in absolving oneself of blame, to color in the ambiguous blur according to the appropriate narrative. Remember, you are at war; the last place you will find objective information is your national TV station. Keep this in mind at all times. Exercise: A Palestinian youth who attacks a checkpoint soldier with a kitchen knife is a terrorist. An Israeli pilot who strafes a jeep carrying Kassam launchers in a crowded Gaza street killing an innocent bystander is still called a pilot. Now do the blindfold taste exercise. Which taste the saltiest, Israeli or Palestinian tears? 5. Do conflicts end by themselves? In the end only outside pressure or intervention can stop the bloodshed. There still is a conflict today because the world at large has had, for whatever reason, an interest in its continuation. The most optimistic interpretation here is indifference. Sadly. 6. How about this one though, is it unique? More intractable than others? 7. Why does the current situation not work? 8. How does religion fit into all this?
1 | Walter Sobchak, Tuesday Feb 12, 2008
I'm impressed!
Walter, converted when he married Cynthia
PS: Also Dude, Muslim terrorist is not the prefered nomenclature. Arab please.
2 | AMR from MA, USA, Tuesday Feb 12, 2008
Part 1
Errors, errors galor! You say that some middle east experts get it wrong, and yet you sitting in Ramallah think you can get it better?
2."The survivors [of WWII] escaped to [the] Palestine [Mandate]....
Concurrent with the Jewish desire for a homeland, there existed a Palestinian national movement led by a class of scholars and notables,"
First of all, ZIonism preceded WWII. There was no desire for a "Palestinian national movement" because at that time Palestinian primarily referred to Jews living in Palestine. Perhaps there was a national Arab movement.
3 | AMR from MA, USA, Tuesday Feb 12, 2008
Part 2
2. In reality however, the area was already populated.
Many of the Arabs today called Palestinians ancestors immigrated to the Mandate of Palestine or whatever-it-was-called-when-the-Turks-had-it only following the economic opportunities that were generated by the Jewish immigration as a result of Zionism. To be called a Palestinian according to the UN, one only had to have lived in the Mandate for 2 years prior to Israels creation.
3. Yes that is correct.
4 | AMR from MA, USA, Tuesday Feb 12, 2008
Part 3
4. You dont convince me. It is not only the tactics, it is the fact that Israel is trying to defend itself while the terrorists are trying to destroy it. It is not just that terrorists ignore moral standards of warfare, it is that their goal is genocide. People often overlook this. Targetting civilians is not the terrorists only offense.
Which taste the saltiest, Israeli or Palestinian tears?
Yes, anyone gets sad when someone they know dies and yes the sadness of both is legitimate.
5 | AMR from MA, USA, Tuesday Feb 12, 2008
Part 4
4. I fail to see how this fact makes Israel and Palestinians on par. Both being able to feel grief due to the others attacks doesnt mean that both sides goals or tactics in killing are equivalent.
7. Why does the current situation not work?
It is the fault of the Palestinian education system that even in the absence of anything to blame Israel for, the terrorists feel that they must attack Israel and kill Jews, or work towards that end.
6 | AMR from MA, USA, Tuesday Feb 12, 2008
Part 5
7. The bottom line is human dignity. Any situation where one group exercises control over another is bound to lead to instability, especially when that control, in whatever form, is not inspired by equality.
Perhaps occupation (lets not couch what you are talking about) does cause instability, but the fact is that there has never been a way for Israel to give up control of part of the territories without getting rockets in return. It has happened every time. EVERY territorial concession by Israel is followed by an increase in terrorism.
7 | AMR from MA, USA, Tuesday Feb 12, 2008
Part 6
After Israel captured the territories in 1967, it gave water, electicity, jobs. Yet with their terrorism the residents of tthe Palestinian territories have destroyed them or caused their destruction.The economy of the Palestinians was increasing until 1994 when partial control was given to Arafat.
I agree Israel cannot occupy the West Bank and control Gaza forever (well it has no control over Gaza anymore btw), but it cant give them up. Its in its interest to foster some sort of responsible and powerful peace-seeking Palestinian leadership, but there is only so much Israel can do.
8 | Shlomo, Tuesday Feb 12, 2008
Though too much babbling to be considered coherent, I agree wit the bottom line. One side has to just go, since there are no answers. Should it be the side that has pan nationalist interests and relative relatives in the surrounding 99% of the geographic area, making it easier for them to move on, or the few Jews who have been demonized by the surrounding areas, making it illegal to even be in some of the bordering states. Hopefully the resettlement of the Palestinians can be done humanely and with the support of the world, since they are so interested. Much like Pakistan was.
9 | Leigh Brady, oPt, Tuesday Feb 12, 2008
my last comment continued...
4) no mention of Israeli offensive attacks - implying all attacks are defensive - simply not true.
If you'd like me to help you integrate some ideas to make it more representative, I'd be happy to...in time for your next posting!
10 | naftali, efrat, Thursday Feb 14, 2008
Another exercise:
1) Old grandfather on life-support. Grandson stands to inherit big bucks upon his demise. Unplugs grandad in order to inherit money.
2)Old grandfather on life-support. Grandson sees suffering of grandfather and wants to end his misery. Unplugs life-support to spare his grandfather pain and agony.
Morally equivilant? The terrorist is just that because his intent is to target the innocent, not soldiers. In the Pali case, they also target their own civilians by operating out of civilian areas - a clear war-crime. They thrive on civilian death - that is their clear goal.
11 | Darren, London, UK, Thursday Feb 14, 2008
For almost two thousand years, Jews had been horribly persecuted in Christian Europe. FYI their lot in the Arab Islamic world was for the most part appalling too.
Also, using your logic, you would consider the 7/7 terrorist attacks in London to be perfectly justifiable as the terrorists consider themselves to be at war with the UK.
Jews didn't just suddenly arrive after WWII .For 2000 years there has been a Jewish population in what was Judea and renamed Palestine. European Jewry began emigrating to Palestine in the 1880s.
12 | Darren, London, UK, Thursday Feb 14, 2008
Exercise: A Palestinian youth who attacks a checkpoint soldier with a kitchen knife is a terrorist. An Israeli pilot who strafes a jeep carrying Kassam launchers in a crowded Gaza street killing an innocent bystander is still called a pilot.
An israeli pilot is still called a pilot because neither he, nor his colleagues, nor his countrymen will be singing and dancing and handing out sweets at the death of an innocent bystander. They would recognise it as a terrible accident.
13 | bat yam/bat yam, Thursday Feb 14, 2008
Try this mental (gedanken) experiment.
A spacious 6 mile high apartment complex on any arbitrary single square block in Tel Aviv is created capable of comfortablly containing 6 million "agreeable" Jews to this hypothetically new "Israel" in which life is fully "normal." Thus, there are no longer any Jews in "Greater Palestine."
Could Arab culture accept this situation? Could the Islamic accept this? Would Arabs accept this? Be honest (none of that- let the Jews do this then there definitely will be peace). An existential question then arises. No Jews allowed?
14 | Mica Amherst MA, Friday Feb 15, 2008
Wow, talk about inaccuracies. And to claim that this is pairing it down to essentials. Who fired first...doesn't matter, in crime or war it establishes the onus, or guilt. Unfortunately I would have to answer each error, and i have neither the patience nor interest to correct the distortions of which I am sure you are aware. This is just another poor attempt at leftist historical revisionism. not even an expert in that
15 | Mica Amherst MA, Friday Feb 15, 2008
p.s thaks for sharing your palestinian interpretation of events.
16 | salomon arya San diego, calif. usa, Friday Feb 15, 2008
Poor Israel dreaming of acceptance in the M.E.. The Arabs want Tel-Aviv, not the West Bank (they got it already). Surprise! Jews are
also "Palestinians" not accupiers.. The Arabs attacked & lost. Remember!
You want to be a nice guy? Move to America. Countries have interests not friends; we need another Begin. The victors in Europe took land and ejected the locals. Israel can assert itself, or give-up piece by piece its speck of a country in a sea of enemies.
What's after giving-up the West Bank? The Galil! you dummy. Just you wait.
17 | Erik, Sweden, Friday Feb 15, 2008
Concisively and well written! As a final point to the "Israeli-Palestinian conflict for dummies" I would add: Are there any examples of equivalently difficult national conflicts that have been successively solved recently? Yes, Northern Ireland and South Africa.
18 | Ari - Jakarta, Friday Feb 15, 2008
Dear Thomas,
I guess you have to be patient with different types of people and try to relax a bit. Take up yoga or something, and try not to listen to Abdoul or Jammal too seriously. Try the hash at that new Psagot joint -they are goooood..
19 | Uri,Texas, Friday Feb 15, 2008
So the Apple conclusion; unequivocal return to pre-'67 borders with Jerusalem either divided equally (?) or united as an International City, with the US or UN as an occupying force, having the Mandated power to maintain "peace". Somebody help me here please. Am I understanding Israeli-Palestinian-(Catholic) Conflict For Dummies properly?
20 | Andre, Canada, Friday Feb 15, 2008
Great courageous post.
We need people to stand up for humanity, stand up for compassion, and stand up with a vision of a glorious future of humanity.
A humanity that includes jews, palestinians, and all other wonderful and colourful cultures in our great human race.
I encourage you to keep the discussion alive!
21 | Tempest, Saturday Feb 16, 2008
100% right that we have to stop looking at the past hurts and start looking to improve our children's futures.
For me that boils down to this;
a) In an Israeli state, can a Palestinian legally buy land and set up a safe house in which to raise a family?
b) In a Palestinian state, can an Israeli legally buy land and set up a safe house in which to raise a family?
When one or the other of these becomes unequivocably true, we will have a victorious side.
22 | Gil, Sunday Feb 17, 2008
this had more errors in it than a low budget movie directed by a blind man, i can only hope that the people reading it are educated enough to see it's short comings in properly analysiing a complex situation from what seems to be pretty ignorant standpoint.
23 | John, Sunday Feb 17, 2008
You sound like Palestinian sympathizer. You can't compare an Israeli pilot taking out a truck with qassams to a kid who stabs an Israeli soldier. The Palestinians will willingly attack ANY israeli. They simply want the destruction of Israel. Israel does not openly target civilians or random people which is what the Palestinians are doing with their rocket attacks.
24 | David Miller, Toronto, Sunday Feb 17, 2008
If you think religion has no role to play in the Israeli/Arab (Palestinian) conflict, then you have no business reporting on the situation. Go home to Belgium and get a job.
25 | du yisa, Monday Feb 18, 2008
It reads like the Israeli-Arab Conflict By Dummies to me. You managed to be wrong on almost every single point. Let's try again:
1. In the late 19th Century, a long-distinct ethnic and religious group (the Jews) decided to return to its ancient homeland, where it still retained a majority population in its ancient capital. Its members did this by purchasing land from absentee landlords and developing it. They did not deprive the existing population of its property or engage in displacement.
26 | du yisa, Shenzhen, China, Monday Feb 18, 2008
2. The economic development created by the Jews also caused substantial Arab immigration. The immigration of both groups, which had started under the Ottoman Empire, increased under the British Mandate. It was at this time that active Arab pogroms began against the Jewish population. While there were occasional counter attacks, the vast majority of the violence was directed by the Arabs against the Jews. This trend continues up to the present.
27 | du yisa, Shenzhen, China, Monday Feb 18, 2008
3. Unwilling to accept an internationally sanctioned division of sovereignty, the Arabs decided to eliminate the Jews, and initiated an openly genocidal campaign against them. They failed, and as a result, some of their population was displaced. The modern state of Israel was born on a small section of what was then the British Mandate. The overwhelming majority of that mandate had been granted to the newly invented Transjordan, and the remainder was occupied by the Egyptians and Jordanians. During this period, Hebron and East Jerusalem were ethnically cleansed.
28 | du yisa, Shenzhen, China, Monday Feb 18, 2008
4. Unlike the Arab regimes, the new Israeli government did not expel the Arabs from the territory it acquired. Next came the invention of Palestinian nationalism. Since there had never been any such thing as a Palestinian nation (any more than there had been a Levantine, Middle Eastern or Oriental nation), this identity was fixed only in relation to the existence of Israel, which was argued to have been built on 'Palestinian' land. As it happened, Israel was also built on Eastern Mediterranean land, but Eastern Mediterranean nationalism never seemed to develop much momentum.
29 | du yisa, Shenzhen, China, Monday Feb 18, 2008
5. Simultaneous with the appearance of 'Palestinian' nationalism, Arab persecution of Middle Eastern and North African Jewish populations precipitated mass immigration to Israel, with the result being that the majority of the Jewish population became Levantine in origin. This is perhaps best exemplified by the expulsion of the Egyptian Jews and the seizure of their property by the Nasser regime in Egypt. This period also saw a ceaseless campaign of Arab violence against the Israeli state and its civilian population, which ranged from terror activity to open warfare.
30 | du yisa, Shenzhen, China, Monday Feb 18, 2008
6. One of these openly genocidal wars - all initiated by the Arabs - resulted in a loss of territory by Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. Israel became responsible for a hostile and violent population, but did not displace it. This population remains one of the fastest growing in the world. The Arabs refused any responsibility for the effects of their genocidal campaigns, so that the 'Palestinian' population became the world's only perpetual refugees, remaining welfare cases for the past half-century, consuming more aid money than any other group in history - money embezzled and invested in weapons.
31 | S McCosker Australia, Friday Mar 14, 2008
du yisa is right. For more info see Martha Gellhorn 'The Arabs of Palestine' 1961; Jacques Ellul, Un Chretien Pour Israel (1986) ch 1:3 - Antisemitism & antizionism; ch 2 - Propaganda (he deconstructs Arab/Muslim agitprop, warns "we are in a situation that Dufour calls 'pre-pogrom'"; ch 3: 2 - The PLO. History: Bat Yeor, The Dhimmi; James Parkes, Whose Land?; Bostom, Legacy of Jihad; Spencer, Truth About Muhammad. Muslims want Jews gone, dhimmi or DEAD. You're shilling for Jihad, Tom.
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