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Tuesday Jul 24, 2007
West of Delancey: Hamas, Iran and the Holocaust Posted by Marvin Hier
Comments: 29
Even though the Second World War ended more than 62 years ago, new secrets keep coming out. One of them, in a new book to be published in August, Taping Hitler’s Generals, tells the amazing story of how the British Secret Service taped the conversations of high-ranking Nazi generals that were captured and in British custody during WWII. The transcripts of the conversations go to the heart of the question – Was the German Army – the Wehrmacht complicit with Hitler’s war crimes against the Jews? At Nuremberg, an historic distinction was made on the question of culpability. The judges decided that those who were members of the SS, Gestapo, and SD were automatically adjudicated as belonging to criminal organizations, while the Wehrmacht escaped such general classification. While a few high-ranking German generals such as Alfred Jodl, Chief of Operations of the German Army and Wilhelm Keitel, Chief of Staff of the Wehrmacht were convicted of war crimes and hanged at Nuremberg, they were the exceptions to the rule. Most of the leadership of the German Army escaped charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity. The premise being that the “Final Solution” against the Jews was carried out by police organizations under secret orders from Hitler, Himmler, and Senior SS leaders, without the knowledge of the Army command. But the new British intercepts of high-ranking German generals, that were held in Trent Park in North London, blur that distinction. For example, General Dietrich von Choltitz, famous for having refused Hitler’s orders to burn Paris, is heard on the transcripts as saying that when he was in the Crimea in 1941, he was told by the CO of the airfield where he was flying, “Good Lord, I’m not supposed to tell, but they’ve been shooting Jews for days now.” General von Thoma is heard saying, “I am actually ashamed to be an officer,” explaining that he had protested to the Army Chief of Staff, General Franz Halder about the atrocities, only to be told “that’s a political matter and nothing to do with me.” When he protested to the Army Commander Chief, General Walther von Brauchitz, he was told, “do you want me to take it further – if you do, anything might happen.” More horrifying, is the conversation of Lieutenant General Heinrich Kittel, who was overheard telling Major General Paul von Felbert, “the things I’ve experienced in Latvia near Dvinsk – there were mass executions of Jews – there were about 15 SS and 60 Latvians known to be the most brutal people in the world. When I was lying in bed, I kept hearing shots.” He then investigated and found “men, women and children counted and stripped naked. The executioners laid the clothes in one pile, then 20 women had to take up their positions naked on the edge of the trench – they were then shot and fell down into it.” “How was it done?” asks General Felbert. “They faced the trench and then 20 Latvians came up behind and simply fired through the back of the heads.” Kittel then says he gave orders forbidding such executions where people can look on. “If you shoot people in the woods, or somewhere where no one can see,” he said to the SS men, “then that’s your own affair, but no shooting here. We’re drinking water from the springs and we’re getting nothing but corpse water here.” “What did they do to the children?,” General Felbert asks him. Sounding excited according to the transcriber, Kittel answers, “they seized 3 year old children by the hair, held them up, shot them with a pistol and then threw them in. I saw that myself.” Another General, Hans Schaeffer, asks General Kittel, “Did they weep? Did they have any idea what was in store for them?” “They knew perfectly well,” was the reply. Later on Kittel muses, “If one were to destroy all the Jews of the world simultaneously, there wouldn’t remain a single accuser. Those Jews are the pests of the East.” “What happened to the young, pretty girls,” General Felbert asks, as the conversation turns to the concentration camps. “Were they formed into a harem?” “I didn’t bother about that,” Kittel answers. “I only found they did become more reasonable. You have no idea what mean and stupid things are done.” Later on, that day, General Kittel tells Schaeffer about Auschwitz. He says, “In upper Silesia, they simply slaughtered the people systematically. They were gassed in a big hall –there’s the greatest secrecy about all those things.” Later, he adds, “I’m going to hold my tongue about what I know about these things.” What a desecration to the memory of the victims that British Intelligence held on to these intercepts for so long, and for no reason. And what a lesson for our contemporary world, particularly those in Europe, who like making similar distinctions, like distinguishing between the military wing of Hamas and the political leadership perpetuating the myth that Hamas government leaders are not informed and do not approve of terrorist operations. The lesson of these intercepts teaches us that genocide cannot be carried out by a few people – it takes a village and a mindset of a whole nation to create an Auschwitz. At the very least, the British government should send these intercepts by special courier to President Ahmadinijad and Khaled Mashaal, the notorious Holocaust deniers of our time. For more information on this issue, go to www.wiesenthal.com
1 | Mike, Tuesday Jul 24, 2007
This is missuse of the Holocaust for political gains, mixing historical facts and assumptions .
2 | Samantha, Tuesday Jul 24, 2007
This makes me weep. To think the British kept these transcripts secret when the opportunity for justice of so many tutured and lost lives during the Holocaust. As the article articulates, these transcripts could have been useful during the Nuremburg trials. I think this is just a reminder that we, as jews, need to remember our history and truly live our mantra for the future, "Never Again!"
3 | schnerra, Tuesday Jul 24, 2007
now that we know all this - shouldnt we lay off the Polish government, as far as reparations go...and focus on the German govt?
4 | Chuck Quackenbush, Tuesday Jul 24, 2007
It is not news that many German officers knew about the Holocaust as it was occurring. Their reactions are not surprising: Voice a protest to higher-ups and then be firmly told to "stay in your lane." Their obedience to these orders is also not surprising. As soldiers, they felt they had done what was required of them and would now return to the all-consuming task of fighting battles against enemy armies. Hamas adherants all believe in the goal of extermination for the Jews. You will never find recorded conversations between them expressing shock at the killing of Jews.
5 | kia, Tuesday Jul 24, 2007
This is horrible story and those who deny Holocaust are irrisponsible ppl but dont forget that you can not punish people for crimes they have not commited. There is a big difference between those who kill people and those who wish or threathen to kill. You can not and should not try people for their mentality. There are many jews who say Iran should be nuked. I have read it many times in these postings. They are not different from Ahmadinejad who says Israel should be wiped off the map. But as long as one has not commited crime he should not be punished. This pre-emptive accusations are nonsense. Even in case of Ahmadi nejad who personally I hate him, you can not compare him with hitler. Hitler killed fifty million people. Ahmadi nejad has not killed even a single human being although he may do that if he had power. But you cant try him for what he has not commited yet. Judiciary system of the majority of developed countries are based on this principle. Only repressive regimes kill people for their beliefs and opinions. So you had better stop misusing Holocaust for you political ulterior motives.
6 | Gil Borman, Tuesday Jul 24, 2007
How does this misuse the Holocaust, Mike? The part in which the full story has never been let out until sixty years after the fact or the part that shows, the more scholars dig, the more they find that ordinary Germans knew and went right along with the single greatest murder in history?
There is no political "gain" from the holocaust. 1/3 of the Jewish people were annihilated by Germany.
To the extent this is just part of the overwhelming need for the Jewish people to have a state but you are wrong there too- Israel is reparations for two millenia of abuse by people with hatred of the Jews. Some of whom accuse the Jews of "misusing" the Holocaust, some of whom even live in Germany, and some of whom are even named Mike.
7 | David Katcoff, Tuesday Jul 24, 2007
I'm not surprised that the British held on to these transcripts; it's consistent with the overall allied effort to concentrate on war strategy and ignore the civilian side. It is also consistent with British attitudes even today, as the House of Lords voted to soften their stance on Hamas.
Also, showing this evidence to Borat Ahmedinejad would be useless, as he would approve of the Holocaust, even if it didn't take place.
8 | Mike, Tuesday Jul 24, 2007
Any Germany with an open mind knew this all along. The controversy about the "Wehrmachr" exepition that was exibited all over Germany proved that beyond a doubt years ago. But what does all of this have to do with the people of Iran who have always had a large Jewish community? The Holocaust was commited only by Christian nations. Heir is missusing the theme in an attempt to shift the blame and in the long run gain political support for the Stae of Israel. This is nothing new. Read Glick, Steyn or Pipes. Arafat was Hitler. Saddam was Goebels. The Palestinians are the Nazis and 2007 is 1938. The Arabs and Islam are being taken hostage for Christian crimes.
9 | Sy Dill, Tuesday Jul 24, 2007
It's laughable and pathetic that we now find Israelis rushing to live in Germany and renounce their Israeli citizenship. We came together as a people with a hard fought struggle to create the new Israel and now we seem to be on the verge of giving it all back.
10 | AbeL, Tuesday Jul 24, 2007
It is not surprising. There is no doubt, that the Axis powers got an UNDESERVED pass from the Allies after WWII. What is incomprehensible, though, is, that Jews nowadays travel in droves to all places in Europe as if, everything is forgiven AND FORGOTTEN! WHEN JEWISH SELF-RESPECT AND HONOR BE RESTORED???!!!
11 | Albert Reingewirtz, Tuesday Jul 24, 2007
Anyone surprised by British silence about Nazi murder of Jews doesn't know history. Refusal to bomb rail roads leading to extermination camps, the camps themselves, Bevin and his monstrous effort to close Palestine to survivors of the camps, Cyprus British concentration camps and the latest: British boycott of Israel. And now we have Blair sticking his British nose to do what exactly to Jews?
12 | Adam, Tuesday Jul 24, 2007
Mike in Germany is dead wrong AGAIN! As Jews in Germany were packing up and fleeing the Reich in the mid 30's going the other way were wealthy Arabs coming into Germany. Muslims made up there own SS unit -EAGERLY, I might add - in Bosnia. The grand mufti of Jerusalem was pals with Himmler and got his own private tour of Auschwitz and gave the master of murder great compliments. The Grand Mufti Al Husseini taught Eichmann how to create a war against the Jews in stages. I am only scratching the surface of the crimes that the collective Arab population committed against the Jewish people during WWII.
Taking the argument one further, WWII is a euphamism for the War Against the Jews which is what that war in the European theater was really about. And we all know which side of the War Against the Jews the Arabs are on and have been on since the beginning of recorded history.
At this point I do not advocate the use of Nuclear bomb(s) on Iran. That said Ahmedinijahd has entered the Iranian people into a world of deep jeopardy. Israel does have every right to Nuke him right now for what he has threatened. Others, throughout history of threatened us Jewish people and kept their promises so I (and most good people today) believe his intentions. The time is not right, but...
13 | paul david swinford Christian truck driver, Tuesday Jul 24, 2007
Reading this leaves me speachless.
14 | Arthur Rosen, Tuesday Jul 24, 2007
A few Nazis were prosecuted after the war. But if you think that philosphy or the blood or their power is washed away, the world is sadly mistaken. They have regrouped as the power brokers of the world. Why do you think the mid-east was so important to Rommel. The definition of Fascism is what we are living today in the west. Big industry and money controlling all aspects of life. The labels we cannot hang on people, the trail is blurred, but the signature is there and humanity had better deal with it now. My vote, regretably means just about nothing somehow and without JPost I think many things, that I wrote, may never have been communicated anywhere else in the so called free world.
15 | James, Tuesday Jul 24, 2007
To Kia #5. How do you account for the murdered Baha'is and Christians in Iran? Just in the last 3 months. Mr. Amahdinnerjacket is a Thug of the Worst kind..A Messianic Thug. Open your eyes! The Mullah's are just a Murderous Crime Family and Justice is Coming.
16 | kia, Tuesday Jul 24, 2007
To#12 What you are doing is distortion of history. Majority of middle east countries sided with germany, not because they wanted extermination of jews. Take Iran for example. If Iranians wanted to exterminate jews they did not need to get help from germany. There were hundreds of thousands of jews living inside Iran then. Moreover, allies and even german people themselves did not know what was going on in Aushwitz, so how it is possible that mid easterners knew that. We sided with germany simply cus we wanted to get rid off british colonialism. Britons colonized, enslaved and humilliated mid easterners for 200 years and it is very natural that people of the region had sympathy for german. In fact not only Iraninans sympatized with germans but Indians also did it. How come it is bad to enslave jews but it is acceptable to colonize and enslave people of middle east?
17 | Dan, Wednesday Jul 25, 2007
Some of these interpretations are warped. Of course, SS members and soldiers knew what was going on in the death and work camps. The Iranian leader is just spewing rhetoric. The IDF could take out the Iranian nuclear capability in two hours.
18 | art, Wednesday Jul 25, 2007
Britain's covering up the slaughter of Jews seems quite consistent with a mentality that singles out the Jewish state for a boycott
19 | Adam, Wednesday Jul 25, 2007
Oh and I forgot to add this for #16. The Baathist party that ruled in Iraq - Sadaam studied Adolph Hitler, his personal hero and modelled his government after this Nazi Party. And Yasser Arafat also deeply admired Hitler.
Currently their is strife in the Jewish community because Jews like me want the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum to get over their preposterous position of moral correctness and properly address memory. This would be to bare witness to the Muslim and Arab complicity and aiding and abbeting of the Holocaust!
20 | kia, Wednesday Jul 25, 2007
To#19.Adam I dont know where you are from but I guess u might be an American jew. You mentioned Saddam as an example of a Nazi supporter. You are absolutely right but it seems you have forgotten that your government armed and supported Saddam when he invaded Iran. So dont put all the blame on Iranians. Second, Holocaust was a crime commited by YOU westerners and not us so I dont know why WE should learn lessons from it. Europeans and Americans dont like jews not because of palestininas or their love of muslims. They hate jews simply because they are innately racist. And irronically jews who have been victims of racism are one of the most racist people in the entire world themselves.
This is personal experience of many of my secular friends who are living among jews in america. As soon as they realize that you are from a mid east country, they do their best to make a hell of your life no matter what you think or who u are.
21 | Steven Kohn, Wednesday Jul 25, 2007
This all should come as no surprise. A whole country/people were more or less involved and naturally many had to know what was going on, Especially those in high positions.
22 | Sandy, Wednesday Jul 25, 2007
When push comes to shove we Jews will always have to fend for ourselves. In good times most people are decent, but when times get tough people fall into "survival mode" and it is every man for himself...unfortunately. Mike from Germany shouldn't talk about Jews using the Holocaust for political gain. What an outrageous statement from somebody who still cannot accept responsibility for the most heinous act every committed against an innocent people.
23 | kia, Wednesday Jul 25, 2007
To#22 avrohom. I noticed u called me racist. Just take a look at ur posting, read it again and then decide who is racist.I also notice u called me jealous. Jealous of who? jealous of what? Jealous of not being chosen people? Of course I am not chosen people and dont want to be. I am a proud secular citizin like everybody else. I also dont care about ur holy torah which entitles u to being chosen people. It seems refering to Torah is a common theme in ur community. That is why u always refer to Torah to prove legitimacy of state of israel while u dont understand that torah is sacred for u and not for gentiles. This is the same argument that some muslim bring forward to justify their Jihad. They say it is written in Qoran. You are pathetic Avrohom. Although i am not very fond of Israel but I dont hate her as well. I had a jewish friend. how could I be anti semitic? But if your defenition of anti-semitism is any criticism of jews, then you might be right. if you equate criticism with racism then u should take a look at postings in Jpost by your fellow jews and then decide who is racist.
24 | Laine Frajberg, Wednesday Jul 25, 2007
Kia,your statement that only European
and American gentiles-unlike Arabs and
Persians-hate Jews is nonsense.It was one of your own people,Haman vizer to
Shah Xerxes,who sought to ANNIHILATE all
Jews in the Persian Empire.(circa 480 B.C.)He was the first person in history
to advocate genocide of Jews.Your current leadership are still hankering
after this "solution".
25 | kia, Thursday Jul 26, 2007
To#25Laine. Haman was not persian and it is exactely what i read in JPost. He tried to sound persian the same way that Ahmadi nejad tries to sound Arab. So he was not representative of iranian people. Moreover, Xrex's wife was jewish which again proves that persians were not anti-semitic. I dont like to speak for arab cus they are certainly racist. But in iran only those who are religious are racist and not rest of the people which makes a big difference with europe and west in which racism in intrinsic and integral to their culture. Racism in iran is religious based like anywhere else in the world. Orthodox christians are racist too but they cant express it. It is the same among jews. It is the same in all cultures who are religious. There is one way u can avoid religious based racism which is showing that u like their religion. But there is another type of racism that u can not scape it which is ethnic recism, existing among SOME europians and many jews. There is no way to escape it. u can not change ur skin colour or ur ethnicity. In europe and jewish communities both type of racism exist. Read articles in Jpost. One of the concerns of Israelis is why palestinian birth rate in israel is higher than jews in israel. Many people have concern that why mid easterners are emigrating to europe and hide their racism behind a veil that they are afraid of islamic fundamentalism there. In reality they are afraid of mixinig wiht people of different ethnic origin. This is what I have experienced myself during my residence in europe. Many people thought I was french but as soon as they realized I was Iranian they steered clear of me. Religous racism also exist among christians and jews. Right now there is an article in Jpost that evangelicals and orthodox jews should form an alliance against one billion muslims as if all those who live in muslim countries are muslim extremisits! They again are hiding their racistic intentions behind the rhetoric that they should fight terrorism. Who believes that evangelicals and haredim jews care about democracy and human right? They are potential terrorist themselves. To make it short, racism in jewish and western countires is a fact that can not be denied.
26 | Laine Frajberg, Friday Jul 27, 2007
Kia,if Haman was not Persian,then what
was his ethnicity?French or Greek maybe?
You are also wrong when you say only the religious fanatics in your country hate Jews.Remember Shah Reza Pahlevi(senior) who admired the Nazis-fellow Aryans in his view-and was deposed by
the allies for that reason in 1941.Shah
Reza hated the mullahs.Also maybe you
didn't kill Jews in WW2 because your country was occupied by English and Russians.
27 | Jonas Graversgaard, Friday Jul 27, 2007
Everybody can enjoy the same rights, but today they blame somebody other than the jews, namely the people, who are regarded as mentally ill or nuts.
I think the Iranians have more need for all this 'medicine' and 'experts'. Maybe then they will stop laughing. We got a good case!
28 | kia, Saturday Jul 28, 2007
Laine, the first time that I heard about Haman was in jerusalm post. In fact before that I knew nothing about him and exactely it was here that I read he was not iranian but wanted to sound more iranina than iranians themselves. Althopugh i dont know where he was from. U can look it up in archives of Jpost. Second he wanted to do genocide but his attempt was foiled. Third, it seems u did not read my first posting in this page about iranians stance in WW2. We sided with germany cus we had experienced 200 years of colonialism and wanted to get rid of the British. Iran was ocuupied by britons in ww2 only for 3 years so Reza Shah could harras jews if wished to do so cus he ruled for 20 years but he never discriminated jews, christians or zorostrians cus he was not racist. finally, Iranians love of their origin or Aryanness is not a reason to prove we are racist. In fact u proved u are racist by equating aryanism with nazim. We are aryan and we are proud of that and we wont deny it to appease u. Although some people belive that aryan or semitic terms are linguistic terms rather than ethnic but whatever it is, persian language is categorized among Aryn languages. It is the case about Indians and their language. You only mention one part of iranian history out of context. Nobody denies that Reza Shah was a dictator but he was not antisemitic. He also did not know about Holocaust. He thought Germans whould be the winner of the war which was a miscalculation. Iran for 200 years was a centre of struggle between russians and britons to colonize it. Reza Shah and all iranian people hated both britons and russians and were looking for a savior.
29 | Midas Helling, Monday Jul 30, 2007
looking for a savior?
Maybe we all are.
I think its naive to say that the Ayrian fell for the nazi propagandic arian.(which even could be associated with starsign aries etc).
many things are left unsaid on WW2, e.g. the Spanish civil war just before. People tend to team up with who ever, who assure them of the largest gain,thus beeing blinded by the large horns of fortuna overflowing with goods. Let holocaust stand for its horror, to avoid it from happening again, we must begin with ourselves and free us from every predudice thought of any other, breathing, person.
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