Tuesday Feb 19, 2008

Guest Blog: Talkbacks and the fear of peace

Posted by David Turner
Comments: 35
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Whenever the suggestion appears in print of an opportunity for Israel to explore possible peace with the Arabs, be they Saudis, Palestinians or Syrians, the majority of talkbacks, particularly from the Diaspora, dismiss the idea outright and brand the author as a Leftist, a luftmensch. As if Israel must always survive in a state of war, a permanent garrison state.

In a recent JPost article, David Kimche described meeting Prince Turki al-Faisal, intelligence chief of Saudi Arabia. In that meeting the prince again raised the Saudi peace initiative. Kimche observed in his article that not only the Saudi prince, but such prior Israeli intelligence chiefs as Avraham Achituv, Carmi Gillon, Ya'acov Peri and Amos Manor, each considered representing right-wingers while serving at their posts, eventually came to represent positions favoring peace with the Arabs. If today's critics found them acceptable in the past, should this at least suggest caution in dismissing them today because they appear to have changed their understanding of Israel's long-term needs?

Talkbackers seem to confuse Israeli willingness to talk peace as a prior acceptance of an outcome based on pre-conditions favorable to its adversaries. In fact the purpose of a negotiation is to provide a process of mutual testing of intentions, of exploring boundaries for compromise and resolution. It is the gradual building of trust and acceptance, a possibility for adversaries to grow accustomed to a changing, non-belligerent relationship. Perhaps talkbackers are uneasy that Israelis are not capable of protecting the interests of the Jewish state as negotiators? If so make that the base of your criticism, not a heated, emotional and visceral rejection of peace at any cost!

Peace with its Arab neighbors has been Israel's strategic goal since before statehood. The end to isolation, the shifting of capital from defense to infrastructure, this is but one benefit of stepping back from a state of belligerency. Does peace with the Arabs mean the end of war, the end of defense expenditures? Of course not. There is still Iran to contend with. But better to confront the self-proclaimed Persian enemy across the Gulf as part of an alliance with the Arabs than to do so alone.

From the earliest days Israel has seen her strategic interest not in winning endless wars; even the most hawkish among Israelis appreciates that "endless" eventually comes to an end. Israel's interest was never endless victories over its neighbors, but accommodation, peace and acceptance by the Arab world at large.

Israel today is a ghetto, larger and better able to defend itself than in the past and present western counterparts, but still only a ghetto. And a ghetto is by definition an isolated and self-isolating entity, surrounded by potentially hostile neighbors. Can Israel survive, flourish in such an environment, its mentality and economy distorted by a chronic state of war? And if so, what would distinguish such a state, our people, the Jews from those we brand Islamo-fascists today?

Israel's security today depends on a strong, respected and yes, feared military. But her future survival depends on ending the state of war. Regardless how painful the present-based-on-past, it is familiar and therefore comfortable. The ability to exchange the familiar, painful as it may be, for the uncertainty of a better future entails risk, demands flexibility and, yes faith. Change, be it personal or national demands courage.

I believe in Israel, that our people, courageous in war, can also be courageous in peace.

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1  |  Kenneth Besig, Wednesday Feb 20, 2008
The author of this blog seems to really believe that when the Palestinians or the other Arabs talk of peace, they mean the sort of compromise and give and take that the word peace means in English. What this blogger fails to understand is that when the Arabs use the word peace in relation to Israel, they really mean that Israel must fully agree to every demand they make, and fully capitulate to every grievance they claim, without even the possibility of the Arab side making one single concession. (Cont)
2  |  Kenneth Besig, Wednesday Feb 20, 2008
(cont) Indeed, when the Arabs talk of peace with Israel, they really mean that Israel as a state must be destroyed and her Jewish inhabitants forcefully expelled from the Middle East or simply killed. Thankfully, most of the Diaspora talkbackers and many Israeli talkbackers can see through the Arab ruse, that is, that for the Arabs peace diplomacy is simply another way to wage war on Israel.
3  |  Kenneth Besig, Wednesday Feb 20, 2008
That David Turner, who wrote this utter nonsense about peace is so badly misinformed, so completely ignorant of the Arab Israeli reality, and so absolutely naive regarding Arab intentions is shameful and only prolongs the Arab belief that they will eventually destroy Israel.
4  |  Said, London, Thursday Feb 21, 2008
To the first two talkbackers: you aim to keep your country safe and in peace by instilling fear in your neighbours. The end result is that you will have a completely paranoid outlook to the rest of the world, and it will show - it already does by the fact that most talkbackers call all who disagree with Israel, whether for good or ill, anti-semites. That kind of attitude will only end up in Israel imploding. You're a minority in the Middle East and yet you demand more respect than anyone else. You can't have it both ways!
5  |  Laurette, Thursday Feb 21, 2008
No point trying to argue with this guy. He will rebut your comments with more comments. He avoids the point and even makes things up to cover his butt. Me thinks- He is a self pronounced scholar imagining himself to have great wisdom and insight. Perhaps part of his opening statement is as close to the truth as you will get,....'dismiss the idea outright and brand the author as a Leftist, a luftmensch."
6  |  Y. Kreminsky, Thursday Feb 21, 2008
Why ***shouldn't*** Israel and supporters of Israel have a "fear of peace"? The only result of all these "peace processes" and "peace negotiations" has been increased hatred and disrespect for Israel, accompanied by death and destruction. It's time we realized that all this loose talk about "peace" -- how desperately we need "peace", and how brave and courageous we have to be to seek "peace" -- is nothing but manipulation, lies, and continual deception.
7  |  Nat, Thursday Feb 21, 2008
Talkbackers criticize mostly Jews like you who serve as one sided apologists for Israel's enemies. Haaretz is swamped with guys like you one sidedly casting aspersions on Israel the tiny successful defender. Like Joshua and Caleb who stood up to the majority of self-defeatists upon entrance into the Holyland of yore, talkbackers see no such Similar Joshua today, rrather Jewish never Arab apologists. Apologize for what? For evacuating Gaza and getting rocketed freely? For managing to breathe after ferocious wars impose on Israel?
8  |  Ben Menachem, Thursday Feb 21, 2008
Just for the record, those intelligence chiefs you mention e.g. Carmi Gillon were aligned with the left not the right as you incorrectly point out.
9  |  McQueen, Thursday Feb 21, 2008
To post #4. What exactly is "having it both ways" about demanding more respect in a region full of countries that deserve very little. There is nothing paranoid at all about correctly perceiving that you and many others want Israel destroyed.
10  |  Jack B. - USA, Thursday Feb 21, 2008
The so-called peace process has failed with the respect to Lebanon, Gaza, Syria, the Palestinians, etc. Israel's enemies want to destroy it, using any and all means - including a false peace process. Remember Olso? A "testing of intentions" is quite simple and requires no peace talks: after LEAVING Gaza, thousands of rockets have been fired against Israel FROM Gaza.
11  |  muslim, Thursday Feb 21, 2008
after more than 25 years of peace hebrew can't be taught in egyptian schools. BILLIONS OF DOLLARS HAVE BEEN SPENT BY SAUDI ARABIA TO PROPAGATE ITS WAHHABI FANATIC TREND OF ISLAM AROUND THE WORLD.ARAB "intellectuals" ARE TRYING TO MANIPULATE WESTERN PUBLIC OPINION AGAINST ISRAEL...PEACE?
12  |  Morton Friedman Lanham, MD USA, Thursday Feb 21, 2008
I would further suggest that 'fear of peace' is far more prevalent in the Arab world than in Israel or the West. For 'peace' means freedom od speech, exchange of views, freedom for commerce. And those are attributes of Western democracies and an anathema to monarchies and dictatorships. The geographic location of Israel, and its economic and cultural success causes it to be an intolerable 'sore thumb'. Just imagine if Israel's neighbors freely availed themselves of Israeli technological expertise, a possibility when there is 'peace'.
13  |  abe usa, Thursday Feb 21, 2008
We on the Right deal with reality, not fantasy. We see the situation is Israel as impossible for peace. Your friends among the Pals has no power; your enemies fling missiles at you daily while you do nothing. You have the weakest Jew ever to hold power as your PM and a dolting fool as your President. Most Israelis would rather be Europeans than Jews; the Haredim don't want to exist in this universe. Your best people are labeled "settlers" as if that a bad thing to do. You now lose wars and make excuses for it. Yes, anyone who talks peace now is a fool.
14  |  Ronald Shiffman USA, Thursday Feb 21, 2008
The author states, 'peace with its Arab neighbors has been Israel's strategic goal since before statehood.' That is correct. And the only reason that there is no peace today is that destruction of the Jewish state has been the Arab's goal since before statehood. Wishful thinking on the part of the Jewish people can not change Arab behavior.
15  |  Velvel silver spring, Friday Feb 22, 2008
David Turner US has a blog on jpost? Is this the same David Turner US who flooded jpost articles talkback boards with spam extolling the virtues of a release of Barghouti? If this is you, David Turner US, your fellow blogger last time (or the handlers of her blog) censored my response to your very disingenuous renunciation of your own position. Is this really you, the same David Turner US? Who'da thunk it. Then again, not surprising. And not surprising at all that you jump to Kimche's defense. His silly article was valiantly obliterated by the talkbacks.
16  |  steven peled, Friday Feb 22, 2008
peace negotiations occur between former enemies.the arabs, by their own accounts,still consider us enemies,sworn to our destruction.we are not adversaries as the author contends.adversaries have the same interests in mind,and will compete for it.neither seeks the others demise,they negotiate for better position.what the author advocates is negotiated surrender.to murderers!
17  |  Bracha M, Canada, Friday Feb 22, 2008
David Turner writes "It is the gradual building of trust and acceptance, a possibility for adversaries to grow accustomed to a changing, non-belligerent relationship" Ever since Oslo Israel has been giving the Palestinians opportunities for the above to happen, yet they have consistently beaten down the hand extended to them in friendship. Facts still remain facts, you show your true intent, not by what you say but by what you do. NO EXCUSES. The Palestinian leadership does not want true peace with Israel, that is fact. No amount of wishing will make it otherwise.
18  |  Neal, USA, Friday Feb 22, 2008
David, I agree with Ken Besig about Arab so-called negotiating, altho not with his attack on you. What bothers me most is people from 7 or 8 time zones away thinking they know better than Israelis what risks Israelis should take with their lives and the lives of their chidren. North American Jews won't pay in blood for unexpected bad consequences. They're also arrogant, suggesting that Israelis are too stupid to know what's in their best interest.
19  |  USA, Friday Feb 22, 2008
Right... After a number of failed Peace Negotiations, the talkbackers who are out of hope for "peace" are wrong. If the peace negotiations work, that's great. Why do these talkbackers bother you so much? I can think of a country that instills fear in their enemies and they don't have rockets coming down on their country maiming their children. Peace will happen when Israel loves her children more than the enemies.
20  |  Sharona Jerusalem Israel, Friday Feb 22, 2008
I lived much of my life on the US Canadian border near Buffalo NY. I KNOW what peace is. And it is not what the Arabs envision. For them peace means the destruction of Israel and death of all the Jews. One proof of this is the insistence that not one single Jew be allowed to live in the Palestinian state. I have asked and asked the lefties why they go along with this and call it peace and have never gotten an answer. Also this blogger apparently doesn't know that Israel is flourishing under extremely difficult circumstances. The first human right is life!
21  |  Danny Alexander, Friday Feb 22, 2008
To Said in London (#4)--UK Muslim demands for a preferentially exalted place have been accompanied by literal explosions against the surrounding community (as opposed to implosion). This seems of a piece with the approach taken by the Arab (and Muslim) world as a whole in relation to Israel. Namely, a negotiation is not one in the Western sense, but rather a prior and full acceptance by the inferior Jews of all Arab/Muslim positions in exchange for the privilege of conversation (about the dictates of Jewish submission and dispersal).
22  |  David Turner, Friday Feb 22, 2008
Ken, your response exemplifies, if not the tone of the anti-peace talkbackers (at least you are not shrill!) but certainly the rationale. That any enemy must be approached cautiously is a given. My point is not to go in blithely trusting the smile and handshake (if and when offered) but the substance of their positions (sometimes very different from what appears in public utterances). Negotiation is not capitulation but a process of testing, gradual conciliation and finally, if possible,
23  |  David Turner, Friday Feb 22, 2008
agreement with guarantees. Is there risk involved, of course. All change, personal as well as collective involves risk. Is change necessary, again obviously. Israel cannot indefinitely sustain an endless state of war. the distortions to economy and society already result in massive yerida. A recent JPost article pointed out that few higher education graduates can even find employment in Israel due, at least in part, to the focus on defense over infrastructure. To say nothing of the cost in
24  |  David Turner, Friday Feb 22, 2008
terms of income of reservists away from jobs, of the lost national productivity and income due to reserve duty. And thatÂ’s just for starts. Said, our talkbacker from the Arab side makes a just criticism. Name-calling among the various Jewish sides does not achieve dialogue, but dismissal. And Y is correct, so far as his comments go. But again dismissing a future peace based only on past experience locks Israel into place as a Garrison State facing endless warfare, something unsustainable
25  |  David Turner, Friday Feb 22, 2008
indefinitely for Israel, and resulting in a society, exemplified by the tone of many of our Diaspora talkbackers, unable to respect and accept the opinions of even one-another, much less the possibility that our adversaries might possibly be willing to dialogue with us! And as for Laurette, well I did try dialoguing rationally with her in my earlier blog.
26  |  Laurette Canada, Saturday Feb 23, 2008
#4-You got it backwards. Your comments are twisted. Israel is not trying to instill fear in their neighbours-the ranting and raving of Hamas, Hizbullah et al threatening anihilation, destruction and devastation on a daily basis in their attempt to instill fear in Israel-and paranoid is not the right term-you never know what these insane terrorists are going to do-whether its strapping a bomb on their mentally challenged or who knows? It's not paranoia its an attempt to watch their back .
27  |  Jack B., Saturday Feb 23, 2008
David Turner: The reality is no one can predict the future. Peace talks could have a decent or terrible result. This war could last for many more years or could be over in a single day. Israel's many enemies speak of their desire to complete destroy Israel; their (the enemies) words and actions show they are preparing for war. The rocket attacks in the South are acts of war. It's a mistake to be confused by the fact that the 'nice' words said in private peace talks are different from the 'vile' words spoke in public by Israel's enemies.
28  |  Jack B., Saturday Feb 23, 2008
I wonder why there is such hope and faith in peace talks that have repeatedly failed. Olso, for example, resulted in worse terror and a much more radical Palestinian culture. The Lebanon and Gaza "disengagements" resulted in more conflict, not less. Any wise person would hopefully learn from these (and many other) experiences and realize that a worldview which insists that only peace talks of a certain nature can resolve complex matters is a worldview not based on a complete understanding of reality or of human nature.
29  |  denny taylor, usa, sumnere, wa, Saturday Feb 23, 2008
Hizbulla should be wiped off the earth and all that think like them. Eventually the Lord will do that. In the meantime, The Jewish country has every right to exist. I support them. I honor them. They better not believe a word of what Hizbulla says or the Palistine governments. There will be no compromise. God himself has gathered the Hebrews from all parts of the world. It was prophecized in the old and new tesiment. I belive in the Lord and what he says. I also believe the Muslim faith ahs been taken over by radicals. The ones who truly believe will be spared possibly.
30  |  Scott, Leeds,Yorkshire UK, Saturday Feb 23, 2008
Isreal is a secular country ... where women are respected Here in Britain, there exists an ethnic Muslim population who flagrantly ... stick one finger up ... at British customs; and our way of life. However go do a ... "burka and hijab count" ... in Leeds ... or other Brit universities ... and it is alarming. If these young Muslim girls are not rebelling now ... when they are aged 18 to 22. ... when surrounded by other female undergradutes who are wearing mini-skirts ... whilst their Muslim counterparts ... hide in shame behing their headscarfs.
31  |  Scott, Leeds,Yorkshire UK, Saturday Feb 23, 2008
continued ... The article above states: Israel's security today depends on a strong, respected and yes, feared military. GOOD !!! Don't give that up in a hurry. The Islamists see Britain as a candidate for their first Muslim Caliphate in Europe. What's P.M. Brown doing? Throwing money at Islamic Studies courses.
32  |  Laurette-Canada, Saturday Feb 23, 2008
1. David you said you attempted to dialogue with me rationally in an earlier blog. Impossible-You are not rational. And you pawn yourself off as an expert vociferously arguing with belittlling and demeaning comments answering the bloggers who do not agree with you. A good writer will write an article that stands for itself where the author is not continually trying to justify his position and argue against the comments. And furthermore...
33  |  Laurette-Canada, Saturday Feb 23, 2008
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