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Thursday Jun 12, 2008
Double Standard Watch: Questions for Walt and Mearsheimer Posted by Alan Dershowitz
Comments: 56
Professors Stephen Walt and John Mearsheimer have been invited to speak at Hebrew University. They will continue to pedal their bigoted drivel about the iron grip, the Jewish lobby - which they call the "Israel Lobby," in capital letters - holds over American foreign policy. They will claim, as they did in their previous writings, that Israel's birth was an original sin and crime, that Israel holds the moral low ground, and that if the cause of Israel were in any way deserving of American support, it would not need a lobby. They don't make similar claims about the powerful Saudi lobby or the numerous other lobbies that have been part of America since the days of Thomas Jefferson. If just causes did not need lobbies, then it would follow that the causes of civil rights, civil liberties, gay rights, environmental rights, the rights of the elderly, etc. would all be unjust since each of them has high-powered and effective lobbies. They miss the point that the reason the Israel Lobby is influential is because the cause of Israel is popular among grass root Americans. This contrasts with the Saudi lobby, which buys influence for a cause that has no support among average Americans. Yet the Saudi lobby warrants almost no mention in their screed against Israel. Walt and Mearsheimer blame Israel for everything that is wrong with the world, ranging from the Iraq war to 9/11 to high oil prices. On the Iraq war, they claim that Prime Minister Sharon and the Israeli government and its AIPAC lobby drove the United States into a war that American officials did not want to fight. This is demonstrably false, as evidenced by the fact that the then Prime Minister of Israel, Ariel Sharon, counseled President Bush against invading and occupying Iraq. Sharon was concerned that such a misadventure would bog down the American military and divert attention from Iran, which posed a greater threat to the world, to the United States and to Israel. Nor did AIPAC push the United States into the Iraq war. That war was the brainchild of American conservatives such as Vice President Cheney, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld, and President Bush. But blame the Jews and blame the Jewish nation! How much easier that is. Professors Walt and Mearsheimer are described as distinguished academics, but their book is so riddled with simple factual mistakes that it could not pass peer review by an academic press or scientific journal. In my forthcoming book, The Case Against Israel's Enemies, I document dozens of factual errors, all of which - not coincidentally - are against Israel. (Israeli citizenship is based on "blood," they claim, thus ignoring Israel's million plus Arab citizens.) It's amazing that they never make a mistake in Israel's favor. I also document the out-of-context quotes - all against Israel - they lifted from anti-Semitic, neo-Nazi and radical Islamic hate sites. That is why so many of their own colleagues - Jewish and not Jewish - have trashed their work as "piss-poor" research (as one colleague put it). Distinguished academics? Not as evidenced by this book. Unscholarly propagandists? The proof is in the reading. They whine that they could not get their critique published in America, but now they are laughing all the way to the bank with a best-seller that is featured on virulently anti-Semitic hate sites all over the world. They are treated as rock stars by anti-Israel groups that invite them to say exactly what the groups want to hear. They travel all over the world pandering to their audiences, and yet they refused to debate me when I repeatedly challenged them to expose their fallacious theory to the marketplace of ideas. I wish I were in Israel and able to attend and respond to their presentation in public. I hope those who are in the audience will ask them the kind of probing questions they have thus far refused to entertain. And by the way, ask them why they won't debate me. I'm right across the street from Professor Walt.
1 |
Esteban (Argentina),
Thursday Jun 12, 2008
Mr Dershowitz, you will be remembered as a hero of the jewish people and also a hero of Humanity. God bless you Alan. Keep your hard work and also spread the word as much as you can. Shalom!
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joe smith boston,
Thursday Jun 12, 2008
Alan I remember when you and I stood outside a hotel in boston 25 years ago when the saudis were celebrating thieir victory when they got their AWAC planes. Theye were serving a wonderful buffet for all thier perverted folllowers. You stood ouside protesting. keep up the good fight and we both know those two miscreants just know how to make money by writng an anti israel book.
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Steven, Former South African,
Thursday Jun 12, 2008
Keep up the good work Mr Dershowitz. Much of the world hates you, and as a white south african, I know exactly why. Never give up and never surrender, because if you do, you'll pay for it for the next two thousand years.
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Manny, Chicago,
Thursday Jun 12, 2008
It is shameful for the Hebrew University to invite two anti-semites. Israel lost its way? Who is next? Carter? Ahminajad? I hope students will demonstrate at their talk, and donors will react. No more donations from me.
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Ruben Misrahi,
Thursday Jun 12, 2008
What I like about Mr. Dershowitz the most, is that he presents his cases with overwhelming reason. Even though these subjects peddle great emotions, he always counter-attacks with reason, the best or perhaps the only weapon Jews ever wield against Anti-Semites.
I wish he was even more active. We need 100 Dershowitz's.
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JJ Pawtucket, RI USA,
Thursday Jun 12, 2008
Kole Hacavode Dr. Dershowtiz.
Say it like it is.
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Ely Doron,
Thursday Jun 12, 2008
Dear Alan as you know ,it is part of the "Big lie" that is repeated over and over untill people start to believe in it. Nothing is New... Undear the sun,, as long as Israel exists there will be Anti Samitic,Anti Zionist,Jewish forces and Bigots (Some of them so called " Kind soles- Leftist Jews") that will say " It is Israel's fault ". can you imagin what will happen.... to the Jews, Including to the Leftist one ..if Israel was not here in this world as a Independent,strong Jewish State? G-d forbid!
None can challeng you.
Kol Hakavod to you.
Lechaim Israel.
Shalom,
Ely Doron
8 |
Jack, Florida,
Thursday Jun 12, 2008
I read their book. I have read your books. I also have read books by such Jewish individuals as Moshe Menuhin, Alfred M. Lilienthal, Norman Finkelstein, Israel Shahak, Ilan Pappe, et al. They, sir, are right and you are wrong. In fact, you are not only wrong, you are contemptibly wrong.
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Jo Ellen Davey Cohen Oak Park, Illinois USA,
Thursday Jun 12, 2008
Professor Dershowitz...The distinguished fellows and 'paleo-liberals,' Walt and Mearsheimer have joined with Patrick J. Buchanan in stirring the pot of anti-semitic messaging. As with Jimmy Carter,
'Peace Not Apartheid,' an indictment against Israel and the Jewish people plays well wth Palestinian-Hamas sympathizers (Professor Norman Finkelstein), and the 'left-wing radical' American Nakba churches such as the First United Methodist Church. Thank you for your steadfast defense of the State of Israel, and her people.
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emily david,Curacao N.A.,
Thursday Jun 12, 2008
Mr Dershowitz
You have been such an asset to Israel and the Jewish people!!
I wish we had many more like you!!!!
You are a light shining for the Nation!!!!!!
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jerrold, Florida,
Thursday Jun 12, 2008
Jack has read all the books that criticize Israel for every wrong in the world. Jack and I both seem to inhabit Florida, but Jack lives in his own little world of hatred and blame for Jews and Israel.
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Martin Slann - Macon, GA,
Thursday Jun 12, 2008
Walt and Mearsheimer have authored a book that is basically an unimaginative and plagiarized polemic based on nineteenth century anti-semitic tracts that were popular then in Europe (and still are) and are selling well in the Islamic world. They write that they are in favor of a sovereign Israel, but then recommend everything that would insure the destruction of this sovereignty. These two cannot be unaware of the 1400 year old war against the Judeo-Christian tradition by Islam, but they are either in denial or complicit.
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Daniel, Buenos Aires, Argentina,
Thursday Jun 12, 2008
Mr. Dershowitz, your work is very helpfull not only for the "media", a lot of International Relations students are learning from this kind of people and get biased from their writings. It will be very interesting to see a book giving specific answers to the IR and Political Science Alumni regarding all of this matters.
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Ely Doron ,Florida,,
Thursday Jun 12, 2008
Hit the road Jack... ( #9).... and never come back... Where is your " evidence" ? on whet merit you basing your " Findings " ? as Alan said:
"it is a fallacy to conclude that one side of a dispute must be right if some people who are ethnically identiied with" That " side support the "Other" side".
you sound like Noam Chomsky. and many others that called: "The
New Anti Semits" the one who are part of:Genocidal, political,theological, cultural, holocaust dinial. Racist terrorisem ,denial to Israel of equality (Int'l Law ) .
you are a Pet of "the Big lie "
Ely Doron
.
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Dan, Dallas TEXAS,
Thursday Jun 12, 2008
To Jack in Florida: Is it not amazing that two people can read the same thing and draw completely different conclusions. I too have read the fiction of M & W, Finkelstein and Pappe and have come to completely to opposite conclusion as you. Indeed onlly an ndividual with a profound Jew hatred could come to the conclusion that you came to. Even after these charlatans admit that facts are not as important as their own agendas do you proudly agree with their view point. My only question is did you get help answering the simple math question prior to you posting? Silly man. If the shoe fits...
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Mark,
Thursday Jun 12, 2008
Pro-Israel presenters on US campuses typically receive protests from the Arab, Muslim and left wing students. So will the Jewish students at Hebrew U protest against these two frauds. I hope so but I doubt it. If Israeli's can't get out in the street to protest against Olmert and his corrupt government, I doubt there will be much in the way of a protest against these clowns. I too hope that the attendees will counter their arguments and ask them the toughest questions.
It sure is interesting that these mouthpieces and the idiot Jimmy Carter will not debate you. FRAUDS!!!
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R. Feinstein,
Thursday Jun 12, 2008
To Jack from Florida: I've read Lilienthal, Finkelstein, Shahak, Pappe, et al. too...and they are wrong...very, very wrong, and so are you! Professor Dershowitz's critique of Walt & Mearsheimer's book is 100% on target. And why won't these two vicious Israel-bashers (it really goes beyond that...the simple fact is that they hate Jews) debate him?
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Keith Miller, Sherman Oaks, CA, USA,
Thursday Jun 12, 2008
Dear Professor Dershowitz,
I learned from your earlier text, The Case for Israel, and look forward to your new text, The Case Against Israel's Enemies. I am proud of you and the work you do on behalf of Israel and world-wide Jewry. Thank you for your efforts to expose the malicious lies perpetrated by enemies of Judaism and democracy.
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Ely Doron ,Florida,,
Thursday Jun 12, 2008
Alan is right.!
As T Fridman said" Criticizing Israel is NOT Anti Semtic and saying so is VILE.
but SINGLING OUT Israel of opprobrium and int'l sanctions out of all PROPORTION to any other patry in the Middle East- IS Anti Semtic, and NOT SAYING SO is dishonest. "
Bigots like Walts and Mearsheimer, Chomsky,and Micheal Massing who wrote that What AIPAC wants " is a powerful Israel free to occupy the territory it chooses, enfeebled Palestinians and unquestioning support for Israel by the U.S..."
Are Wrong !
Ely Doron
there are many group working hard to band U.S. foreign policy,
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Joe Hakimian,
Thursday Jun 12, 2008
Dear Professor Dershowitz. Keep up the amazing work. You are an inspiration for me and I love all your works. I am a student at the University of Wisconsin-Madison and am constantly surrounded by leftists and anti-zionists (anit-semites) and am trying my hardest to debate and protest these people. Your books and work give me hope. Thanks for everything you do.
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Raoul - Israel,
Thursday Jun 12, 2008
Professor Dershowitz, keep up the good work! Your arguments are always to the point and very clearly made. People like *Jack* are either in denial or have an abnormally low IQ. Let us be of good cheer. The tide will turn!
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Ruth Medina,
Thursday Jun 12, 2008
Dear Alan,
Thanks for be the voice of true...You are a defensor of Israel. We need more people like you!!!!
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Peter, Santa Fe, NM USA,
Thursday Jun 12, 2008
Rock on, Dershowitz. Thank you for speaking the truth and defending Israel!
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David,
Thursday Jun 12, 2008
"And by the way, ask them why they won't debate me"
They will not debate you becuase they are:
1. Dumb
2. Liars
3. They can't make money by telling the truth
4. anti-semites
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Eve - Jerusalem,
Thursday Jun 12, 2008
Col HaCavod, Me. Dershowitz. The Case For Israel was an excellent book and I am looking
forward to the Case Against Israels Enemies. You dont need to convince me but I do know some folks in America who need convinving. Its sad that the Israelis in Gush Shalom could be somisguided as to invite Walt and Mearsheimer. One doesnt have to be a big fan of AIPAC to recognize
their book for what it is.
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Raymond Pestalozzi San Francisco, CA,
Thursday Jun 12, 2008
Alan,
Even at times we were at odds, but you never gave up on your Yiddishkiet and Im delighted to say you have changed my opinion on you 180 degrees. Your liberals stances in the past have bothered me, yet your position on Israel and the world-wide Jewry has impressed me. Now we resist the new fashion of anti-Semitism whether its revisionism/ holocaust deniers the likes of David Irving and his cohorts, or the Stephen Walt and John Mearsheimer pedaling their odium toward Israel and the Jews at large, then also the self-hating bigoted Jews the likes of Norman Finkelstein and the disgraced Noam Chomsky who reminds of the 13th centuries renegades and apostates the likes of Pablo Christiani in Spain and Nicholas Donin of France the father of anti-Semitism or should I say the first to instigate the burning of Jewish holy books(the Talmud),
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truthseeker,
Thursday Jun 12, 2008
why does not anybody in this debate see that just because someone does not support israel and its terrorist tactics against palestinians, that it does not make them anti-semetic. my disgust for israel's uncontested violation of human rights has nothing to do with the fact it is inhabited by jews. i would damn any such country that steals the land of its natives.
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sid florida,
Thursday Jun 12, 2008
jack you are just a old fashioned jew hater . and if you were born jewish there were many jewish kapos . self hating jews are nothing new.
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Steve Fla.,
Thursday Jun 12, 2008
I just finished listening to Dershowitz's "Chutzpa," on audio. I listened to "The Case For Peace" earlier. Mearsheimer would agree with much in "The Case For Peace," especially chapter 15; "More Israeli than the Israelis." I found more in Chutzpa to agree with than "The Case For Peace, though the professor makes compelling arguments in each book. I could only wish Mr. Dershowitz were as much an advocate for my wonderful Jewish friends living in Judea, Samaria and formerly in Gaza as he is an advocate for the Jews against these vicious anti-Semites like Mearsheimer, Walt and Carter.
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Mike, Germany,
Thursday Jun 12, 2008
Seeing Obama cringe before the Lobby, after all its attempts to discredit and denounce him speacks louder than any book ever can.
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Pete Eriksen, Alaska,
Thursday Jun 12, 2008
Dershowitz needs to address the issues M&W raise. His tirade is just a long series of red-herrings.
[They don't make similar claims about the powerful Saudi lobby] - this is the "You-Too" logical fallacy.
[They will claim..Israel's birth was an original sin] - "Strawman" fallacy.
Israeli citizenship is based on "blood," they claim] - "Strawman". JEWISH NATIONALITY is inherited.
[I document dozens of factual errors] - he needs to present his evidence here, on a specific issue.
[a best-seller that is featured on virulently anti-Semitic hate sites]] - "Guilt by association" fallacy.
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Tony Boston, MA USA,
Friday Jun 13, 2008
Deterrence, perserverance and vigilance will someday lead us to peace.
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Stanford Newman USA,
Friday Jun 13, 2008
The facts are that as long as there have been Hebrews/Israelites/Jews, the rest of the world has feared us. And we have paid for that fear over the thousands of years by continuous massacres and all other forms of hatred. It is not Jesus who died for man's sins, but the Jewish people, over and over again - the world's scapegoat. And why - is it because we are the holy nation, the nation that has G-d's truth? " Hear Oh Israel, the Lord is our G-d, the Lord is One" is the most profound statement in human history but despite this, what is most appalling are the self hating Jews.
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Abraham Goldberg,
Friday Jun 13, 2008
Walt and Mearsheimer are not the only anti-Semites, and anti-Israelis. Israel does ignoring those enemies and doing the right thing. Allan keep doing the good work. Abraham
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Inyaki, Bilbao, Basque,
Friday Jun 13, 2008
To 8 and to 17. You are both wrong. Finkelstein, Shahak, Ilan Pappe, Chomsky etc. as well as Derschowitz are partially wrong and partially right. Derchowitz's "Case for Israel" is crap, actually Israel doesn't need this sort of defense. I reckon, however that Derschowitz is more right than the other's mentioned, with the ratio of something like 10 to 1, maybe 10 to 2. The "Israel Lobby" book is a very subtle antisemitism- maybe 20 times the authors write they are in favor of Israel existence blah blah, and then they explain why Israel should not exist. What a pair of evil minded antisemites.
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los angeles,
Friday Jun 13, 2008
number 8 , Mr. Jack
Yes Jack, I do undrestand you very well, you reached to this "conclusion" because of reading books of those "progressives", otherwise you are a "unbiased" and "inocent pure soul". As a matter of fact Adolph Hitler also reaced to almost same conclusion thru "reading books". My suggestion for you would be try not to read to many of those books "books".
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Inyaki, Bilbao, Basque,
Friday Jun 13, 2008
Their book "the Israel Lobby" is a piss poor research, andas well subtly antisemitic, I completely agree. Yet yours, "the case for Israel" ain't better, to be honest. The "Case for Israel" book is for Talansky- type undereducated, ignorant American Jews. I was quite disillusioned by its arguments.
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D. Cohen, St. Louis, MO,
Friday Jun 13, 2008
Those who hate Jews and Israel are virtually 100% impregnable when confronted with facts opposing their beliefs. Even so, it is the responsibility of people like Professor Dershowitz and all others who value truth and justice to continually speak out against ignorance and bigotry. If the haters have any doubts, let them desist completely from their actions and their writings for a period of, say, one year, and sit back and watch all the terrible things that will happen to the world because of the Jews. The truth is, of course, nothing - but they'll never admit that the possibility exists.
39 |
HAIM,
Friday Jun 13, 2008
I cannot understand why some people continue to refer to Norman Finkelstein as "professor". Where about is Norman a professor? He was kicked out of academia because his so-called scholarly work is either wrong , plagiarized, or both. Throw him into the garbage heap of academia.
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Sally, Chicago, Illinois,
Friday Jun 13, 2008
Dershowitz looked like a fool when he debated Norm Finkelstein relying on Joan Peters' discredited work. And, when he tried to disrupt President Carter's talk at Brandeis - everyone but two alta cockas left the room. Americans see Dershowitz and see one of O.J.'s dirty lawyers. My cat could wipe the floor with him in a debate and if you're thinking of calling her an "anti-Semite" - good luck. She eats matzoh brei and loves it!
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Jim, Minneapolis, MN,
Friday Jun 13, 2008
Firstly, how can the great Mr. Dershowitz mistake the State of Israel for the Jewish people? One is a sovereign nation, the other a diverse people. I believe Israel should exist, and should maintain a good, strong relationship with the US. I also believe Israel is partly at fault for the state of the Palestinian conflict. I'm offended that such simple criticisms are so quickly labeled anti-Semitic and Jew-hating. Criticism is not hatred. We all need criticism sometime. I read half "The Israel Lobby" and was merely bored. Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing. Peace to you all.
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Max Djemal Sao Paulo Brazil,
Friday Jun 13, 2008
congratulation Professor Dershowitz.
they lie continuously like all antisemite and bigot
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Steve USA,
Friday Jun 13, 2008
If you are reading this Prof Walt and Mearshimer (or their supporters) I wonder why you will not debate Dershowitz. Is that true? Just want to know the truth. No name calling but lets have that debate Professors. That will help us decide who is right. Dont' fear Prof Dershowitz. He won't hit you.
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Edward,
Friday Jun 13, 2008
The highest praise goes to you for your support of Israel, the Jewish people, and your stalwart positions against these rabid anti-semites, that use their twisted logic in an effort to foment a worldwide pogrom against us all.
Thank you for pushing back.
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david,
Friday Jun 13, 2008
I know that these two men are from the U.S. One the University of Chicago, Senator Obama lectured at this university and the other from Harvard where Obama graduated from Law School. It's odd to me how I keep researching information on him and continually come back to the same theme. He doesn't like Israel. I applaud a democratic country and university for letting them speak, they can't complain about being excluded. I do hope that those in attendance ask them the hard questions they deserved to be asked. To the people of Israel, don't be fooled. To Jews for Obama in the U.S., why?
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Vinegar Hill, Madrid, Spain.,
Friday Jun 13, 2008
Mr. Dershowitz you too are guilty of the accusations which you throw at Walt and Mearsheimer. You ride roughshod over the facts and comments that are made and give your own twisted view of what the authors argue. Why do you ignore surveys that state that less than 40% of American Jewry have little or no emotional relationship with Israel? Why do you ignore the fact that there are yawing social differences bet¡ween different ethnic groups in Israel where evidence of discrimination is obvious? Maybe more people should read and decide for themselves what the book is all about.
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Yves Miedzianogora,
Friday Jun 13, 2008
Hello Professor Dershowitz!As a US citizen currently based in Brussels,Belgium ,the heart of the criminally negligent so-called Europe and as an admiring LLM 79 HLS alumnus who attended your class I wish to thank you for all your efforts in favor of the State of Israel.As you may know Alain Finkielkraut, a French philosopher and a staunch advocate of Israel,is called "Melekh Israel" when he goes there.So should you!!!!Once again kind regards and as they say in yiddish :"Sei gebenshet".(May you be blessed)!All the best.
48 |
Al,
Saturday Jun 14, 2008
Professor Dershowitz is just anothe egomaniac trying to grab someone else's spotlight. The Prof. chooses to ignore that Israel is in violation of International law and United Nations Resolutions and has been for decades. Israel has attacked and threatened to attack other Sovereign States simply because it enjoys the proxy power of America. Israel developed Nuclear facilities with the "technical" assistance of America and imprisoned an Israeli citizen for disclosing it. The paranoia of Israel and and others, causes the the cry of "anti-Semite" to rise when any legitimate criticism is given.
49 |
Samuel R, Nottingham, U.K.,
Saturday Jun 14, 2008
Can anyone explain why so many people have hated us for the last 2000 years? What do we do that annoys them? I would love to know.
50 |
Rupa Shah Illinois USA,
Saturday Jun 14, 2008
Prof Dershowitz, you sound like a broken record with your constant refrain of "anti-semitism". In your view, criticism of Israeli govt policies is anti-semitic though Israelis themselves do not think so. You complain that people you disagree with, do not want to debate you. Unfortunately, you not only do not agree but are very disagreeable ( as the debate I watched between you and Prof Chomsky ), confrontational ( not acceptable ) and civility is missing.
51 |
Inyaki, Bilbao, Basque,
Monday Jun 16, 2008
To #46. While I agree on the first part of your argument, I completely disagree with the second. The social differences in Israel have nothing to do with ethnicity, but rather with the date of arrival of every group. First come first served. First are those who live 7-10 generations in Israel, then the Russians who came in the 19th century, then the Russians who came in the beginning of the 20th century, then the Poles, then the Moroccans, then the Yemenites, then the Russians again etc. Just look at Israeli Parliament and the cabinet Ministers. Now that Spain has become also a country of migrants, obvious social differences between the local population and the migrants from Rumania, South America etc.
52 |
tonylee73 st. louis,
Tuesday Jun 17, 2008
The reason they do not debate you is due to your childish temper. Grow up.
53 |
Luigi Gianola Italy,
Wednesday Jun 18, 2008
You are clear and strong to fight against falsehood and prejudice. Walt and Mearsheimer "blame Israel for every thing that is wrong inthe world...",and now they go to speak at Jerusalem University! It's absurd and it's good if you shall be there. Really it's happening very absurd things in Israel. Sharom makes an error to withdrawl from Gaza, but he didn't want make agreement tobe free to act if P.organizations arm or make violences. Now Olmert will go out from a bigpart of West End with two agreements! One for a truce with Hamas! Not for peace! A truce to legitimate Hamas tomake war after?!?
54 |
Bjarke Talamona Denmark,
Saturday Jun 21, 2008
I don't get it. I know many Jews and they are often very smart and peace loving people. But why haven't you put 2 and 2 together that the enemy is not from outside but from inside?
Why are you always ending up in trouble and why are most countries running anti Israeli propaganda to convince most people that the people of Israel are scum of the earth?
Now Israel is preparing for WW3. The media and the politicians go alone with this. This is not a war that will help the israeli soldier and his/her families and friends. This will only help the true enemies of Israel.
See more: radioilluminati.com
55 |
Vinegar Hill, Madrid, Spain.,
Wednesday Jun 25, 2008
# 51 Inyaki. Buenos dias! I think what you have offered is an explanation of the social system that deals with new immigrants into Israel. You are correct in that respect, for the social model exists in the new world countries (USA/Canada) etc. It does not , however, get rid of the fact that social discrimination consciously or not, based on ethnicity, exists.
56 |
Stanley Schrero, Northbrook, IL,
Monday Jun 30, 2008
Alan Dershowitz does not mention the influence of the neocons, among them Mr.Wolfowitz and Mr. Kristo and other Jews, who had been pushing for a U.S. invasion of Iraq for years. I am Jewish and these people anger me. I wonder why Mr. Dershowitz did not mention them.
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