Thursday Oct 29, 2009

Separate but equal: can 'Mehadrin' buses be OK?

Posted by Rabbi Andrew Sacks
Comments: 39
BOOKMARK or SHARE: technorati digg del.icio.us reddit newsvine facebook What's this?
Print  |  
Decrease text sizeDecrease text size
Increase text sizeIncrease text size

There was a time, not so long ago, that "separate but equal" was an acceptable practice in the United States. The concept is quite simple: Communities would establish "colored only" facilities or services for blacks, with the quality of each group's public facilities were (supposedly) equal.
 
Of course the concept never worked, and the facilities of minorities were rarely equal. And even where the facility may have been identical, morality dictates that there be no discrimination based on color.
 
Now, here in Israel, it is women who are being told to go to the back of the bus - literally! Egged, the national/public bus company, has several lines where women must enter from the rear of the bus. Women pulling a "Rosa Parks" risk scorn, if not violence.
 
These so called "Mehadrin lines" (a term usually intended to convey strict adherence to Jewish law) are intended to serve a fervently Orthodox public that would prefer to ride in segregated seating.
 
Is this OK? Well, maybe it is. 
 
Jewish law does not demand segregation. The illustrious Rav Moshe Feinstein ruled that there is no Halachic requirement to have segregation of the sexes on  public transportation. But this does not necessarily mean that it has no place.
 
I believe that a public bus company may seek to meet the needs of a specific segment of its customers - as long as it does not come at a significant cost to others. This means that there may be room for segregated buses. The preferred solution, I believe, is a private bus line that would serve the specific religious demands of the user. But the Egged question made it to the courts yesterday - so it is an issue which needs to be addressed.
 
A Transportation Ministry committee made the following suggestion: Voluntary segregation is OK (at least for a trial period). Passengers riding on these delineated buses may not impose the segregation in any coercive manner, and the bus drivers would have to take responsibility for acting to prevent coercion if it arose.
 
The Jerusalem Post reported that "the committee explained that the underlying principle determining its recommendation was that all passenger buses serving the general public belonged to the public sphere, and every member of the public had the right to use each bus in accordance with basic human rights such as equality and freedom of movement."
 
In the past, it seemed as though the fervently Orthodox would claim an absolute right to set the rules, as though these were private bus lines. Women were to enter only from the rear. They were to sit only in the back of the bus. Some of these bus lines charged a lower fee than the non-segregated parallel lines. The women's sections were often over-crowded while there were seats aplenty in the so-called men's sections. Compliance was enforced by the riders, and the drivers stayed clear of involvement.
 
The Transportation Ministry committee also demanded that "no passenger is obliged to accept this arrangement, and anyone can sit wherever he or she wants. Furthermore, there will be no restrictions on the type of clothing women may wear on these buses."
 
This may be seen as a partial victory for those who seek equality while respecting the rights of each minority (including the Orthodox). Israel is not a theocracy, yet it is a place where Jewish values (and let me be clear that I, personally, do not see separation of the sexes as a Jewish value) stand side by side with democratic ideals.
 
As a person with views that tend to be liberal, and who stands strongly in support of human dignity and freedom, I feel a bit queasy about this blog.
 
Yet riding at the back of the bus may be OK - as long as it is by choice.

BOOKMARK or SHARE: technorati digg del.icio.us reddit newsvine facebook What's this?
Print  |  
1  |   Shlomo, Israel, Thursday Oct 29, 2009 1) The MOT's stance has always been that the segregation of the sexes on buses in voluntary and anyone may use the meharin lines. 2) Egged operates the lines and no private company can provide transportation services without a license from the MOT, which can only be granted wither through a tender or by administrative measures by the MOT. 3) Th real issue is preventing violence against non conformists. The police are responsible for protecting women's rights here and they are sometimes negligant. 4) Segregation in buses isn't a religous issue, but a cultural issue.
2  |   Ilan Israel, Thursday Oct 29, 2009 To #1: Dream on.Regarding 1:The Ministry of Transportation has only now made a recomendation.It has yet to even be accepted by the Minister.Egged has prevented its drivers from enfocing the right of a passenger to disregard the segregation.Regarding 2:There already are some prive Harderdi lines (e.g. Jerusalem-Tzfat/Meron).Reagrding 3:The Haredi rabbis are negligent for not putting in Herem those who use violence.This is a society that allows this behavior. Regarding 4:If it is not a religious issue then why have so many rabbis weighed in on it and insisted that it is required by Halacha?
3  |   JD NY, Thursday Oct 29, 2009 Egged initiated the segregated bus lines in response to the Charedi public's indication that they would support a private bus line that met their needs. Egged was not willing to risk losing revenue from a market sector they considered valuable. If Egged is willing to forgo these lines, I'm sure that there are a number of private companies more than willing to fill the gap.
4  |   Jerusalem Jewess, Thursday Oct 29, 2009 It seems the author has no idea how these buses run, nor the buslinee history. I ride this type a bus at least once a day, I am a women and enjoy the quiet (no radio, no screaming teenagers, and people are basically "dressed" and sober). As comment no. 3 wrote, the only reason Egged agreed to this was because the Charedi public had started running such lines (even over 10 yrs ago, i rode on a bus line from Jerusalem to Recahsim and back), and Egged wanted the income. I wanted to add that there is always an additional way of bus line that is not Mehadtrin, so what is the whole fuss about?
5  |   AR, Jerusalem, Thursday Oct 29, 2009 Let me guess, Rabbi Sacks, you're a man. Right?
6  |   duddy, CANADA, Thursday Oct 29, 2009 "mehadrin" buses are a disgrace and illustrate the truth of the feminist claim that one of the main points of religion is to institutionalize male domination of women. It's because people accept these kinds of empty religious justifications for oppressing women that humanity--for most of its existence--has been deprived of the benefit of women's voices and leadership. Full equality is the only ethical way!
7  |   Dave Nelberg, Thursday Oct 29, 2009 The entire concern of the Frum community is not that men and women are not equal but it is more modest to separate the sexes on buses. Ask any woman where she would rather be on a very crowded bus- with only other women or with men and women. At a time where everyone spends part of their day in front of the internet, perhaps the separation is good FOR WOMEN.
8  |   Shel Zahav in Jerusalem, Thursday Oct 29, 2009 I was wondering if we put all the masorti Jews in Israel in a bus, would it be full? Probably not, but they would get some rich Americans to buy the bus for them so they could play pretend Judaism for free.
9  |   Paul Philadelphia, Thursday Oct 29, 2009 You are all missing the point. The Israeli government is in real danger of surrendering a little, than a lot, then large elements of its sovereignty to these black hatted lunatics. "It's purely a domestic problem! Its a delicate balance! We have to respect internal local........." Nonsense- If me and my wife don't feel safe in every part of Israel (1) We won't come to visit and (2)We wont send you any more of this American money Paul Philadelphia USA
10  |   Jan, Australia, Thursday Oct 29, 2009 The family may consist of a 16year old male and a 7year old girl, a 3 year old boy and a mother. Does the 16 year old male sit with his mother and help her with her parcels and minding his brother, or does he sit with the men? How does an 11 year old boy feel with women? If you can solve how a family survives segregation in day to day life, how a man can help a woman who might be his mother or his grandmother or his wife or sister, while being separate, then bus may be segregated this way without harming family life. A bus is a journey as is life, a bus is not a school or a place of worship.
11  |   faith, New York, USA, Friday Oct 30, 2009 This bus problem is really silly. If Orthodox men don't like riding with women, let them establish their own "PRIVATE "bus company. There is nothing in the Torah that says men and women cannot ride together in a public bus. Public transportation is for all. If anything should be changed, let the men sit in the back of the bus and have the "derek eretz" to get up and let the lady have his seat ! Then the Orthodox would show themselves to be real "mench".
12  |   GP Los Angeles, Friday Oct 30, 2009 Put the men in the back.
13  |   David Zarmi, Friday Oct 30, 2009 Shel Zahav's comment was unnecessarily hostile, but I post here with no support for the masorti movement. One idea that might make some happy is women in the front of the bus, men in back. That way women are getting the preferred seats and the men have that "back of the bus" taint (if there is one - in high school the cool kids sat in the back of the bus). How do they handle fare collection for the people in back, by the way? I'm assuming there's a curtain between the two sexes so that no kharedi can complain about having to look at a woman. How much longer need one wait for a regular bus?
14  |   Baruch Lee, Friday Oct 30, 2009 Queasy or not,Rabbi Sacks,you make a good point.It should be a matter of choice.To # 5,what's your point?You have not made one,And # 8,this is not about Masorti.It's about freedom and equal positions of men and women.Get off the hate thing for a more liberal perpective.You are only showing your bigotry.By the way,would you make your grandmother or mother go to the back of a bus?And if it was full in the back and seats in the front were available,would you not allow her on? By the way #8,tell us how you realyy feel about women?
15  |   Lloyd, Tel Aviv, Friday Oct 30, 2009 Why is it that the women must sit in the back? Why not designate the back of the bus as a men's only? The front could be for anyone, including families wishing to be together.
16  |   Diana Barshaw, Haifa, Israel, Friday Oct 30, 2009 number 8, where does your hostility come from? We are Masorti Jews living in Israel. Our sons went though the Noam Youth movement where my youngest son is now a Madrich and my oldest is just finishing his service in the Army. We are proud, fervent Jews. Don't you think we have enough enemies without having this kind of hostility from within. For a different, totally happy view of the Land of Israel visit my website: www.DianaBarshaw.com
17  |   Marc Jlem, Friday Oct 30, 2009 All of the opinions stressed are valid, I question why was this article written, out of concern for women or despise for the Ultra Orthodox.
18  |   koach, jerusalem, Friday Oct 30, 2009 to Shel Zahav - comment #8 - I'm a dati Jew, I have issues wi Rabbi Sacks' comments, but I have even more of an issue with sinat chinam. Shame on you.
19  |   Jen USA, Friday Oct 30, 2009 One more reason to NOT visit Israel... (sigh).
20  |   MF, Patent Attorney, Friday Oct 30, 2009 Personally, I'd rather sit next to my wife on a bus, but why not put the women in the front of the bus to avoid the 'black on the back of the bus' connotation?
21  |   Sharona Israel, Saturday Oct 31, 2009 #19 Jen NO one MORE reason TO visit Israel, the issue has gone to the Supreme Court also. Come to Israel & make your voice heard instead of using a side issue as an excuse NOT to come. That is a cowardly cop-out. I have no problem with private bus lines. But Egged is PUBLICLY financed or at least subsidised corporation. Egged could run private bus lines if totally financed by the revenues & without public monetary support. And LOWER FARES, subsidised by me? NO! # 9 Paul from Philly, no one is safe in every part of Philly so your comments are idiotic. Philly's crime rate is thru the roof!!!
22  |   Sharona Israel, Saturday Oct 31, 2009 To the Haredim-you are all hypocritical in the extreme. Most Israelis are "masorti" with a small "m". You blackmail El Al into not flying on Shabbat but continue to ride Egged buses which violate Shabbat every single week by departing from the north to Tel Aviv and other destinations well before Shabbat ends. And I am not talking about Haifa. But your personal need for public transportation provided by Egged overrides any real concern about "hilul Shabbat" by Egged. El Al should not have caved either. Will women soon have to sit at the back of El Al planes too?
23  |   Profco, Miami, Saturday Oct 31, 2009 According to Jerusalem Councilwoman Rachel Azariah said, “I am a religious woman myself, and I know that there is no Halakhic [Jewish legal] requirement to separate between men and women on buses. In addition, this is a slippery slope: Will separate stores and sidewalks be next?” YES! The other day, police charged Yoel Kreus of the Eda Haredit, was charged with ordering a woman walking in Meah Shearim to cross the street. When she refused, he assaulted her, spraying her with mace. Giving in to gynophobia doesn't placate religious fanatics. It only makes them more demanding.
24  |   Michael, Saturday Oct 31, 2009 You are correct.... the orthodox have a right to their heathenous barbarism. That is liberty, a right to make mistakes.
25  |   Adam Jerusalem, Sunday Nov 01, 2009 If the ultra-orthodox fanatics would agree to sit in the back or have their own private buses that would be OK, Right? Wrong! The so-called public bus company Egged is a monopoly that does not want to cater for its own public, yet stifles all possible forms of competition. So I have no choice, even if I want to travel separately I must squash in with everyone else on the overcrowded buses to increase their profits. Some new form of freedom and democracy that I have yet to understand.
26  |   faith, New York, USA, Sunday Nov 01, 2009 To #9: Philly is not such a safe place to talk about. There is more crime there than in all of Israel. Your remarks are really not in good taste and not worthy of an American citizen !
27  |   faith, New York, USA, Sunday Nov 01, 2009 Post# 25 - Adam Jerusalem: Catering to the the minority ultra Orthodox wishes is not democracy. If it was up to the ultra orthodox there would be no state of Israel !
28  |   Robert, NY, NY, USA, Sunday Nov 01, 2009 So much nonsense in all these male dominated religions. It is time for Judaism to be more progressive than the other male dominated religions in this world. Men and women are equal in the eyes of G-d and so should they be in the Jewish religion !
29  |   David, Sunday Nov 01, 2009 Rather than threatening to withhold money for Israel, why not direct it toward those organizations that represent your values?
30  |   Kishkeman, Sunday Nov 01, 2009 Can a Conservative rabbi that hijacks his/her shul by demanding a six figure salary while week after week after week so many of the synagogues pews are empty be OK? When will you talk about that?
31  |   faith, New York, USA, Sunday Nov 01, 2009 Judaism is just another male dominated religion. It is run no different then the way the other religions are. What the men determine become the law. Why women go along with this is not known. If the women would just protest, and not follow the rulings of men, the man made religions would quickly change for the better ! WOMEN: RISE UP AGAINST MEN DETERMINING YOUR LIFE WITHOUT YOUR CONSENT ! Do the will of Hashem as you interpret the Torah. Hashem gave you a brain use it !
32  |   Klara Israel, Monday Nov 02, 2009 I am a religious woman, but when I was told by a haredi man to sit in the back O refused. I assume bu the discussion here, tha tI was lucky because I was not attacked or humiliated. I just stood my ground and told him that the bus driver has to tell me that this is Egged policy. This did not happen. I do not see any reson for segregted buses. I do agree that if andortodox jew does not want to sit next to a woman, and there is nowhere else to sit, he/she can sstand. I have seen this happen many times and applaud these people for their principles without abusing other people.
33  |   Marsha in NJ, USA, Monday Nov 02, 2009 What I find most interesting about this article is the author quoting Reb Moshe Feinstein at his convenience. The author represents a movement that sanctions driving on Shabbat and gay rabbis. I would imagine that no one in the movement looked to Reb Feinstein before taking their "votes" on these matters of Jewish law. Chutzpa.
34  |   Cember, Monday Nov 02, 2009 It seems to me that, in a democracy, there must be a COMPLETE separation between religion and state. Democracy is the use of law to mediate among various interests. It does this through finding compromise that all can live with. Religion is a matter of acting according to a god's will. One may not compromise re that which is perceived as G_d's will. Halakha shares this view with Sha'aria. Both are by nature anti-democratic, and should not be tolerated in the sphere of PUBLIC law or policy in a democracy. Private observence of either is a PRIVATE right, not to be imposed on the PUBLIC.
35  |   Jen USA, Tuesday Nov 03, 2009 Sharona Israel, Only Israelis can change this. Israelis should boycott the bus! Tell your political leaders that public funding for discrimination is unacceptable. Hit them where it hurts-the pocketbook and the polls. Never let a group of thugs ("religious" or not) push any woman to the back of a bus or from one side of the street to another. You say that I should come to Israel to make my opinions heard. Hmm... do you think I could get a gross of tazers past customs? Perhaps, these men would finally have a reason to be afraid of women.
36  |   David, Tuesday Nov 03, 2009 To #33. It is clear that Rabbi Sacks does not accept Rav Feinstein as his posek. But Haredim see him as Gadol HaDor. If he said that separate seating was not required, it diminishes their claim for its need. In addition, he is writing from Israel where the Masorti Movement does NOT sanction driving on Shabbat and does not (although I hope this changes) ordain Gay rabbis
37  |   Hadassah, Wednesday Nov 04, 2009 Women who are disabled or elderly, find it impossible to board the bus from the back. They have the right to have accessibility and I believe the elderly or disabled take much more precedence than men who can't see a woman. Why not put the men in the back, a huge curtain up (terrorists will love that heter) and that way these men won't have to see a single female, until they marry and scream each time they see their wife. Accessibility is the right of all in our democratic society.
38  |   Kishkeman, Wednesday Nov 04, 2009 To #36 The next time (Rabbi) Sacks writes on his distaste for marriage options in Israel let him then invoke the name of Rabbi Feinstein. But of course he won't because the "illustrious" Rabbi Feinstein as (Rabbi) Sacks mentions declared that no get is necessary when non orthodox rabbis like (Rabbi) Sacks perform marriages. He likes Rabbi Feinstein with regards to buses but would not like Rabbi Feinstein in regard to marriages. It's another example of the wishy washyness of the Conservative movement and another reason why less and less people care what C Rabbis think.
39  |   David, Monday Nov 09, 2009 To # 38:You miss the point being made or choose to ignore it.Rabbi Sacks(and you show your disdain or immaturity by putting Rabbi in parenthesis)clearly does not accept Rabbi Feinstein as his Posek.But the Haredi community does.THEY often quote Feinstein.Next time the Haredim want to site him, will that not make them hypocritical if they ignore him here in the bus matter?Or is Haredi inconsistency OK? And you may not care for '(Rabbi)" Sacks,or his approach,but he has earned the degree and the title Rabbi. So show him some respect even as you disagree. "Walk humbly before your God."
Add your comment remaining characters
Name and Location *

NOTE: Comments are moderated and will not appear on this blog, until they have been reviewed and deemed appropriate for posting.

For more information, please see our
Readers' Submission Policy.

E-mail * (will NOT be published)
Your Blog/Website
--------------------------------
* All fields are required

About this blog

Masorti Matters
Director of the Masorti [Conservative] Movement's Rabbinical Assembly in Israel (the organization of Masorti/Conservative rabbis), Rabbi Andrew Sacks on Conservative Judaism, Israel, religious pluralism and much more. The views expressed are his own and do not necessarily reflect those of Masorti organizations.

Rabbi Avi Novis Deutsch, faculty member of the Schechter Rabbinical Seminary and Rabbis for Human Rights exegete, previously wrote for this blog. BlogCentral thanks him for his contributions.

Search this blog

Archives
Combined feed for all JPost.com blogs

Most Popular

Top Rated Posts

Recent Comments

Avrohom - Israel: Ilan #20 continued, my comment about "He is better off encouraging people to keep halacha." is right on the money. Before conservative groups start adding chumrot regarding kashrut that are not really chumrot, the group is better off irst establishing themselves in adhering to actual halachot of kashrut. Afterwards if they want to be serendipitous in piling on non-relevent ideas to their standards of kashrut, well, at least the aspect of kashrut is still there. But until they accept kashrut as an obligation, it is not possible to add more requirements.
Avrohom - Israel: Ilan #20, you misunderstood the post in #18. Those issues already are in Torah and they have their own prohibitions and ramifications. They are not arbitrary. They are not issues of kashrut. They are not issues of churot, as are the few examples you mentioned. Each of the issues you mentioned (except hanukah and purim, whish have absolutely nothing to do with this discussion or issue) are additional fences on halachot that are on the same topic. The principles Reb Andrew talks about are random and off topic and do not all into the catagory of chumrot. This point is simple and obvious.
Ilan: To #18. You say "If the issue is important, it is already included in Torah." Baal Tashchit and Tzar Baalei Hayim are both in the Torah. This is not to replace Kashrut but to add additional standards that can let the buyer make an informed decision. By the way-Hannukah, Purim, waiting between milk and meat, not eating fish with meat, methods of Kiddushin, Gerushin,and much more, are not in the Torah. Are they not important? You say "He is better off encouraging people to keep halacha." That is what he is doing. He advocates for Kashrut AND ethical food production.