 Monday May 11, 2009
Saying Kaddish for Conservative Judaism?
Posted by Rabbi Andrew Sacks
Comments: 67
    
In his recent remarks to The Jerusalem Post, Rabbi Norman Lamm, the esteemed chancellor of Yeshiva University, pronounced the time near to say Kaddish [the prayer for the dead] for the Conservative and the Reform Movements.
1 |
avrom,
Monday May 11, 2009
Nice to read a post that comes from a Conservative rabbi that does not attack the Orthodox but suggests that they have room to open.
Too bad the Orthodox political parties in Israel do not live true Orthodox Judaism.
2 |
David Maryland, USA,
Monday May 11, 2009
I belong to an unaffiliated congregation. While I am not a great fan of Conservative Judaism, I feel that it serves the needs well of many of its members. For a respected Rabbi to say "Kadish" for any of the "alternative" streams of Judaism is in my view delusional and self serving. There needs to be respect shown for all forms of Judaism (and all other religions for that matter). Our beliefs are highly personal and we must each choose the religious communities that best serve our needs. In the meantime, continue to serve your congregants and serve them well! May G-d bless you!
3 |
Ilan Jerusalem,
Monday May 11, 2009
There are many problems within the Conservative Movement. But it has allowed many of us to develop a love for Judaism. I do not mourn the movement. I, with all of its weaknesses, laud it and hope for it to continue to produce Jewish leaders and educated congregants.
4 |
Daniel,
Monday May 11, 2009
to #1 - You should have written "it would have been" nice to read a post from cons. Rabbi that does attack the orthodox. And if I would list all of the Conservative's failings and end off "I take no pleasure etc..." you would brand me as intolerant. Typical liberal double standard. Unless ofcourse you mean that most of our "failings" are really successes ! To that I recite, "Amen" together with Rabbi Lamm's kaddish.......unfortunatley. How sad indeed.
5 |
At in Miami,
Monday May 11, 2009
Not long ago, many pundits predicted the extinction of Orthodox Judaism, but were wrong. Now many pundits predict the extinction of Conservative Judaism, and are wrong.
I see the current decline in numbers of Conservative Jews as due to the following reasons.
1. Conservative Judaism has always been 'centrist': generally various forms of 'rightwing' and 'leftwing' have polarized, and moderate centrists have thinned out.
2. In the US, Conservative Judaism statistically reflects Jews as a whole: Jewish numbers are in decline.
6 |
Dan, Washington,
Monday May 11, 2009
The negative birth rate and intermarriage among Con/Reform have guaranteed that in a mere fifty years Orthodoxy will be the predominant stream of Judaism. Woman are not pulpit Rabbis in the orthodox world, not because they are uneducated, but because it is not tznius. Woman may someday be accepted as halachic experts on certain topics. The Torah prohibits homosexual acts. If a homosexual keeps to himself then he is no different than anyone else battling his yetzer hora. The same cannot be said for those that flaunt such behavior, and they will certainly be ostracized.
7 |
At in Miami,
Monday May 11, 2009
3. Conservative Jews are modern: modern society is losing confidence in the power of God, so religious affiliation seems powerless, or even pointless. God-centered institutions need to describe God in ways that are relevant to modern desires and customs. For example, downplaying 'religion' and upplaying 'spirituality'.
4. Conservative balances 'particularism' with 'universalism': US Jews adopt the 'melting pot' narrative, see themselves less as a separate people, but emphasize universalist 'Tikun Olam'. US Jews can compare Jews to American Indians, both tribal and signficantly American.
8 |
At in Miami,
Monday May 11, 2009
Conservative is moderate and centrist: the general polarization of American life effects Conservative Judaism as follows:
1a. Reform Judaism came into existence as an ultra-leftwing radical movement, but has been drifting toward the centrist position ever since, and is obsorbing the left-leaning centrists from the Conservative stream.
1b. Oppositely, Modern Orthodoxy has been drifting toward the centrist position, and is obsorbing the right-leaning centrists from Conservative.
9 |
Cember,
Monday May 11, 2009
Rabbi Lamm's statements that "The Reform Movement may show a rise, because if you add goyim to Jews then you will do OK," "referring to the Reform Movement's policy, starting in 1983, of recognizing patrilineal descent. ", and "Reform is out of the picture, because they never got into the picture, ..." are clear indicators that his apparent openness is a sham. He clearly believes that "legitimate" Judaism is what he says it is. He does, however, touch on the possibility that we should seek converts "because if you add Goyim ... then you will do OK. An organism that doesn't grow, dies.
10 |
Yitzchak Chaim,
Monday May 11, 2009
The C. Rabbi writes, Its Day Schools, camps, and Rabbinical Schools are at capacity. The Ramah camps are ifull. I will give him that. How will they do in this economy? And I will bet Rabbinicalschools will shrink because it seems from enough anectdotal experience that a lot of Conservative rabbis want salaries and benefits Conservative shuls can't afford anymore because their membership roles have been decreasing for years. And the only thing increasing in Conservative Day schools are the for sale signs. Pick up any Jewish weekly to find stories of Conservative Day schools that have closed.
11 |
Larry D.C.,
Monday May 11, 2009
I don't believe that Rabbi Sacks is really clued into the numbers as he says he is. Reform has only grown because of mixed marriages and that growth has a dubious future. Conservative numbers have dropped as the lines unfortunately blur between Conservative and Reform. Rabbi Lamm is not being discriminatory he is telling the unfortunate truth. I wish for their sake that Conservative/Masorati Judaism was more like Sephardi Masoratim as in Israel but it is not. I wish that all of the Galut would be more observant but reality is reality. Ze ma she yesh.
12 |
yitzie, negev,
Monday May 11, 2009
>>I am not sure in which reality Rabbi Lamm lives. Women have had equal access to Jewish learning in the non-Orthodox world for decades.
Sorry, equal access in a world where only the tiniest minority does or ever has studied Torah at the highest levels? It is only in the Orthodox world, where the men actually study, that women's study takes on real meaning.
13 |
Jeff from Chicago,
Tuesday May 12, 2009
If you look objectively at conservative Judaism, you'll see that it "interprets" Talmudic tradition to suit the needs of its constituency. If we can't get a minyan, we'll write new rules. If our congregations is dwindling, we'll let people drive on Shabbat. Have the leaders of conservative Judaism made any "unpopular" decisions? Of course not. They are here only to please. Is that intellectual honesty?
14 |
Steve Washington DC,
Tuesday May 12, 2009
Rabbi Sacks,
The difference between Orthodox Judaism and Conservative Judaism, and the reason why Conservative Judaism is disappearing, is because only Conservative Rabbi's attempt to follow Torah while none of its congregants do. Why don't conservative rabbi's encourage their congregants to keep shabbos or kashrus?! You might have shepards but you have no flock. I grew up conservative so I know. Just like the Karites and the Sadducees, Reform and Conservative will disappear as well.
15 |
Israel,
Tuesday May 12, 2009
#2
Judaism traditionally is a way of life that God prescribed to us, not what we prescribe to God.
Therefore, I can understand that people connect to God in different ways but there needs to be a similar focus. This is what is told to us by god in our Torah.
16 |
Shmuel Israel,
Tuesday May 12, 2009
If Orthodoxy is so successful at retention, they how is it that so many of today's secular Jews had Orthodox grandparents.
It would seem that the Reform and Conservative Movements would be very small if the Orthodox had been successful at retention.
This does not mean that the Orthodox world is not doing wonderful thigs. It does mean that there is a place for all serious Jews.
17 |
Dave Israel,
Tuesday May 12, 2009
when JTS shifted from Talmud and Rabbinics to Jewish History as the major focus, and when Saul Lieberman z'l died, and was replaced by David Halivni who then left for Columbia--things could be seen for what they were in the consrvo world. The Reform 'movement' is intellectually and reilgously moribund save for leftist political views--Ellenson and Eisen are captains on Titanics.
18 |
Berel Shalom Tzvi, US of A,
Tuesday May 12, 2009
Rabbi Lamm is correct in his thinking. The Conservative Movement is not quite sure what it is. On one hand it is tolerating many of the behaviors of the Reformed Moment and even reaching out to intermarried families. Then on the other hand it does adhere to many traditional practices. Both the Conservative and reform Movements teach that it is OK for Jews no to lead Jewish lives and have taught that Judaism is a culture not a faith. Their membership is shrinking as these movements produce Jews who are clueless about our faith. May they Rest In Peace.
19 |
Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ,
Tuesday May 12, 2009
To Shmuel #16--I would say that the situation today is very different from that in our grandfather's time. Back then there were terrible pressures which made the idea of secularism attractive to many. Today, many Orthodox people have seen what that leads to, and (hopefully) are better able to transmit our mesorah. For example, people see that secular socialism was an empty shell, most kibbutzim have become capitalist--while we see that 'etz chayim hee lamachazikim bah'. Shalom
20 |
Yerachmiel, Monsey, NY,
Tuesday May 12, 2009
#16 Shmuel writes that "If Orthodoxy is so successful at retention, they how is it that so many of today's secular Jews had Orthodox grandparents." He's partialy correct. Klal Yisrael has always had a retention problem. Only 20% of the Jewish population oopted toleave Egypt with Moshe. The reason so many secular Jews had orthodox grandparents, (or, at least, great-grandparents) is that the great grandchildren of most secular Jews don't even identify as Jewish anymore.
21 |
Brad, USA,
Tuesday May 12, 2009
The question that nags at me as I read this article, as well as Rabbi Lamm's post, is this: Who decides? The Orthodox rabbinate remain steadfastly intolerant of modernity. The Reform have thrown out much of what gives judaism context. The Masorti stand in the middle, pulled both ways. Yet what of the Jew who doesn't toe the party line of a "movement?" What of the Jew who just wants to be Jewish? What of the convert who disagrees with an Orthodox rabbi and has his conversion annulled? What of the Jew from an assimilated family who isn't recognized due to lack of documentation? B"H
22 |
Marisa, Jerusalem,
Tuesday May 12, 2009
Kol ha-kavod, Rabbi Sacks! As a member of a family which has encompassed Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, and Reconstructionist members, as well as Lutheran and atheist, and as a young Jew who has spent the last 2 years studying Talmud in Jerusalem, I see how the Jewish world has ebbed and flowed in various directions over the years, and I think this is a great part of our strength. Instead of proclaiming the demise of any stream of Judaism, we should be celebrating the infinite variety of Jews and Jewish practice which exists today.
23 |
Rob,
Tuesday May 12, 2009
There will ALWAYS be moderates. There will always be people leaving Orthodoxy and Reform, and there will always be at least some dedicated Conservative families to continue on. The numbers will ebb and flow over time. And if you look behind the numbers a little bit, you would see that the Conservative movement is also technically shrinking because some people are joining "independent" shuls and minyans which are really just Conservative in practice. You would also see a small, but dedicated core in Conservative shuls that aren't going anywhere.
24 |
Joshua - Jersey City, NJ,
Tuesday May 12, 2009
I will only speak from local experience. I live in Jersey City, New Jersey and attend the Reform Synagogue in that city. Jews of ALL denominations are working together to revive Jewish life, and Rabbi Lamm's sniping about the "death" of other movements is unfortunate and counterproductive.
At this time, Orthodox, Conservative and Reform congregations all have declining membership. For what it is worth, the one synagogue that has bucked this trend and is absolutely flourishing is the Conservative Synagogue in Hoboken.
25 |
Efraim Carlsen, Woodmere NY,
Tuesday May 12, 2009
In "Masorti Matters" I read a vigorous but somewhat irrelevant response to Dr. Norman Lamm's "kaddish" for Conservative Judaism. While I agree that "kaddish" is too strong a word to describe a still significant religious movement within Judaism, the Masorti blogger (I forget his name) spent most of his riposte on criticizing Orthodox Judaism. He did not address the serious demographic issues that cause both Conservative and Reform Judaism to wither over time. Simply put, neither group is replacing itself. Only for awhile will Reform be able to feed off the Conservatives, but then the abyss.
26 |
Mark Connecticut USA,
Tuesday May 12, 2009
Rabbi Lamm knows that when it comes to religious denominations Americans are compulsive shoppers. Fully 50% change affiliation during their lifetime. American Jews hop from movement to movement during their lifetime. Daddy takes you to an orthodox shul when you are a kid. Your wife can't stand the mechitza and so you join the Conservative synagogue. You move to Topeka because of a new job and discover that your supervisor belongs to the Reform Temple so you join also. Your kid moves to NYC and marries orthodox and joins a L.I. shul. Their kids feel smothered and become secular. That's life!
27 |
Tzvi/amerikkka,
Tuesday May 12, 2009
True conservative nursery schools are at full capacity. This means JMANY Jewish kids are turned away from Jewish nursery schools day camps etc. If cons Judaism wants to grow they can tell people to go away. I am 100% positive that christian nursery schools never tell Jewish kids to go away they make room for them.
cons Judaism is a cancer whose leaders are trying to destroy world Jewry
28 |
Matt,
Tuesday May 12, 2009
If you want to understand why so many American Jews, young and old, are turned off by Orthodox Judaism, you need only look to models of the Orthodox like Norman Lamm, chancellor of their flagship university. The arrogance and insensitivity and chauvanism he proudly flaunts is deeply unatttactive, as would be obvious to almost anyone living outside the Orthodox cocoon. ItÂ’s not just the frequent hypocrisy of the fervently religious (I have a list of mitzvot right here that I know nobody obeys). ItÂ’s also this condescending, petty attitude toward others that turns off millions of Jews.
29 |
Matt,
Tuesday May 12, 2009
Lamm isn’t saying a “kaddish” for the other movements, for that would imply empathy and grieving. The man is clearly gloating, and he can barely repress his glee at their troubles. Deeply unattractive. He’s clearly looking forward with great anticipation for the day when the other branches and perspectives of Judaism go extinct; if he could pull a lever to destroy them utterly, ending the diversity that has made Jews in America the staggeringly important force that they have become today.
30 |
Matt,
Tuesday May 12, 2009
The image of idealized homogeneity and theological purity espoused by Lamm is deeply ahistorical, and the historical diversity of Jewish philosophy--yes, tempered by tradition-- is part of the reason we have survived the millenia. The fact that so many Jews today are white-skinned and not olive-skinned like our ancestors in the Levant is a dramatic testament to a history of intermarriage and, gasp, patrilineal descent.
31 |
Matt,
Tuesday May 12, 2009
Diversity breeds strength and resilience. It was the Conservative movement that was the first to take the bold stand for Zionism back when it counted, back when even the Orthodox were naysayers. (Or has Lamm forgotten?) American Jews have contributed to America far out of proportion to their numbers, shaping the very history of this country for centuries, and the vast majority of these contributions have come from the non-Orthodox. Chew on that nugget when you read that Lamm is praying for the day when only the Orthodox and haredim remain.
32 |
Matt,
Tuesday May 12, 2009
Is it not enough for the Orthodox to be strong, or must the other movements be weak in order to satisfy the desires of people like Lamm? He is saying to the millions of young Jews born and raised into a Jewish identity from one of the other movements that this big man in the Orthodox movement is rooting for your extinction, for the annihilation of your very identity. Hillel would be rolling in his grave.
ItÂ’s time for this chauvanism between Jews to end. We must root for the growth and well-being of all, and celebrate the rich, yes, heterodox, diversity of American Jewry.
33 |
Matt,
Tuesday May 12, 2009
What Lamm should be praying for is the blossoming of all of Judaism, from the Orthodox to the rest. That would make Hillel proud. it would demonstrate that Lamm feels secure enough in his Judaism that he isnÂ’t compelled to belittle other Jews (a violation of the mitzvot, by the way).
And it might even have the benefit of making his own movement more attractive to those Jews who might be receptive to a change. Fancy that!
34 |
Hilllel - NYC,
Tuesday May 12, 2009
Whether or not the Masorti movement is in a rapid state of decline is not a statistical whim, it is a fact. The rate of assimilation amongst their constituents is frightening and while they pay lip service to halacha, they systematically trample on it out of convenience. With all of the challenges facing the so-called Orthodox world (a term used by conservative and reform to malign halachically oriented individuals and their communities) it pales in comparison to the challenges that face the conservative movement today.
35 |
Shimon NY,
Tuesday May 12, 2009
Look I appreciate Rabbi Sacks Point of view. There is very little holding the Cons. US division together. This is not to say it wont stuggle along for the next 40 years but it will ultimately disappear in its current form. I'll even go so far as to say its Israel counterpart (Masorti) will more than likely find itself as time goes on find more and more common with Left Flank of Orthodoxy than with the practice of ordinary Cons Jews. Most of the Cons. movements traditionalist have left (including myself) because its flagship institutions (Scher, Ramah, USY) in general create MO Jews.
36 |
Tzvi/amerikkka,
Tuesday May 12, 2009
conservative day schools at full capacity..typical lies of the conservative movement.
Ask anyone in NJ, Long Island, westchester county etc if there are more Jewish kids in day schools than there were in the past. I went to atlantic city NJ yesterday and saw several abandoned shuls, a huge number of shuls in the bronx and other nyc boroughs are now abandoned or are churches. does the conservative movement consider to lie? Because this movement is in my opinion a front for the cia and is trying to destroy Jewry.
37 |
Tzvi/amerikkka,
Tuesday May 12, 2009
many nursery schools are full. this means many Jewish kids are being told there is no room for them in Jewish nursery schools and they then go to gentile or secular nursery schools. If the conservative movement cared about growth it woul NEVER turn away a Jewish child!!!
38 |
Neilator / Bergen County, NJ,
Tuesday May 12, 2009
Both rabbis get it wrong - and right. One can't deny that the Conservative Movement is in trouble - diminishing numbers and the next generation is not staying in the fold: they're either moving to the left or the right. Yet there remains a dynamism that a good number of Conservative Jews still experience.
Orthodoxy has alot going for it - certainly in the numbers. But dynamic is not a word one would apply to the movement. As Andrew Sacks points out, Orthodoxy is being pulled to the right ("my chumra is stricter than yours") by the antiZionist haredim.
39 |
Shel Zahav in Jerusalem,
Wednesday May 13, 2009
Conservative Judaism is that "movement" that professes keeping Shabbat while not keeping Shabbat, keeping kashrut without keeping kashrut, and keeping other mitzvot but not really keeping them. It is a movement of hypocrisy and that is why it is the great shrinking silliness that cannot retain its children. It always embraces the latest American leftist cause and, today, it is the a firm believer in its made-up religion of "tikun olam" which is nothing more than American leftist social causes disguised as Judaism. Tikun Olam means bringing God into the world, not performing leftist "mitzvot".
40 |
David Minneapolis,
Wednesday May 13, 2009
It is a bit odd for Norman Lamm to have made remarks about saying Kaddish for the Conservative and Reform movements - I thought he used to warn about "Orthodox triumphalism" - apprarently he believes you can have you cake and eat it too. Others may simply call this hypocisy.
Other Orthodox rabbis are at least honest enough not to espouse disavowal of "triumphalism" - they just engage in it and enjoy it. Right or wrong, at least they are not hypocrites.
41 |
Jeff, Chicago,
Wednesday May 13, 2009
You ask what Rabbi Lamm bases his assertions on. I see conservative shuls in my area shrinking, aging and consolidating with others. I see Orthodox institutions overflowing. I agree with the comment above. The conservative movement has no followers, only leaders. If it is convenient for them, they will affiliate. If not, they won't.
42 |
Rafi,
Wednesday May 13, 2009
Rabbi Sacks never fully responded to Rabbi Lamm's "misleading numbers." Here's what the Forward has to say (www.forward.com/articles/15176):
"Today, more than one-third of Conservative congregants are older than 65, compared with about one-fifth each among Reform and Orthodox Jews. ... And more Conservative Jews, fully 57%, are beyond child-rearing years — empty-nest couples or aging singles — compared with 47% of Reform Jews and just 35% of Orthodox Jews, according to a 2006 study by Hebrew Union College sociologist Steven M. Cohen. In a real sense, the Conservative future is disappearing."
43 |
R. Grayson, Miami Beach, FL,
Wednesday May 13, 2009
Judging another Jew for his/her level of observance is disgusting. This relationship is for each individual to determine and establish with G-d: they will have to judge it and explain it themselves on Yom Din. It's not Ahavas Yisroel. Stop with the Ortho/this-Conserva/that balkanizing of our small people--we're all Jews and beloved of Hashem. We need 10 to read from the Torah, and Rabbi Lamm needs the guy from the "Reform" shul to say Kaddish. It's the way Hashem set it up. We need each other. ALL of us. BTW, Rabbi Sacks is NOT a "Conservative" Rabbi in that "off" way that people are thinking.
44 |
Matt Israelson,
Wednesday May 13, 2009
Regarding Rabbi LammÂ’s comments on goyim among the Reform - and ignoring for the moment the issue of the legitimacy of that movementÂ’s conversions - patrilineal descent is not recognized outside of Reform. Moreover, the Reform movement includes in its membership the non-Jewish spouses of Jewish congregants who have family memberships. Thus, its membership statistics are in fact padded with significant numbers of non-Jews. Again, ignoring the issue of the acceptance of Reform conversions, some estimates have the non-Jewish membership at several hundred thousand.
45 |
Matt Israelson,
Wednesday May 13, 2009
And re: Zionism comments. While the Conservative Movement did embrace Zionism early, it was shortly after the death of Sabbato Morais - first chancellor of JTS who was really Orthodox. The movement was closer to the Positive Historical Judaism of Zecharia Frankel, but would have supported Zionism in any case. But so did the Mizrachi movement, which participated in the Zionist Congresses and voted against the split over the Uganda proposal. And don't forget the Orthodox proto-Zionist Rabbis, Zvi Hersch Kalischer & Yehuda Alkalai, the latter of whom was supported by Herzl's grandfather.
46 |
Matt Israelson,
Wednesday May 13, 2009
The groups that rejected Zionism were the extreme right-wing for whom a secular state, even based on religious principles, was seen as interfering with the coming of the Moshiach; and the Reform Movement, which rejected the concept of Jewish Peoplehood and nationality in an effort to become Americans or Germans of the “mosaic persuasion.” The Reform did an about face when confronted with the Holocaust.
47 |
Anthropologus, USA,
Wednesday May 13, 2009
Terminological comedy. The Reform do NOT advocate patrilineal descent. In matrilineal systems only Mom counts. Dad is irrelevant. In patrilineal systems only Dad counts. Mom is irrelevant. Traditional Jewish descent reckoning is hybrid: matrilineal for Jewish status (Dad doesn't count) but patrilineal for kohen-levi-israel status (Mom doesn't count). Reform are NOT advocating patrilineal descent; if so the child of Catholic Sean and Jewish Rachel would not be Jewish. (Remember: Mom doesn't count). Call their system bilateral or ambilateral or mishmash. It's NOT patrilineal.
48 |
eliezer NW-US,
Thursday May 14, 2009
What the Conservative and Reform forget in their striving for tikun olam is the second half of the pasuk - bemalchut Shakai. Therein lies the weakness and demise of these "movements." In 100 years, the majority of Jews who remember thay are Jews will be Orthodox. Those who remember that their grandparents were Jewish will the post-mortem for C and R.
49 |
DF,
Thursday May 14, 2009
Not Kaddish, refuah shlema.
50 |
Eliezer - Chicago,
Thursday May 14, 2009
It would be good to stay on topic ... Either the movements are diminishing or not.
Rabbi Lamm's attitude is irrelevant to the discussion.
That Orhodox have behavioral or attitudinal shortcomings isn't relevant.
We Jews need to cultivate a community that can grow in using heritage to help face the future. That requires education, ideology, and members. Each movement, and Jews in total, need to honestly assess what is working and what isn't. We can't afford to manipulate numbers to protest vested interests. Too many of the comments are attacking or protecting positions.
51 |
Jeani,
Thursday May 14, 2009
I think it is a shame that Rabbi Lamm seems to have forgotten this quote he made regarding with non-Orthodox movements:
" The liberal movements should be appreciated and encouraged because they are doing something Jewish, even if it is not the way that Orthodox Jews would like them to, he said. "What they are doing is something, and something is better than nothing," he said in his speech. "I'm very openly attacking the notion that we sometimes find in the Orthodox community that `being a goy is better'" than being a non-Orthodox Jew, he said in an interview. (Debra N. Cohen, 1997)
52 |
justayid,
Thursday May 14, 2009
Will someone tell me where all these closed C day schools are? All in NYC? My goodness, I've got news, C Jews center of gravity has been moving away from NYC for a while. Look at C day schools in Florida, California, etc. Also community day schools with mainly C families.
Closed conservative shuls in the Bronx and Atlantic City. Oh my.
BTW, church nursery schools DO turn away gentile children. Every day.
53 |
justayid,
Thursday May 14, 2009
The school concern seems to be about the Schechter school in Manhattan/Teaneck. Which lost its constituency to the "pluralist" Heschel school. The rise of pluralist schools vs Schechter schools is a concern for the Sol Schechter Day School Assoc, its not clear its a problem for the Conservative movement.
And yes, C Judaism is not the strongest demographically right now. Orthodox wasnt 60 years ago. It grew by sticking to its principles and focusing on its core and not worrying too much about numbers. That is what C Judaism needs to do.
54 |
Joe Balan Boca Raton FL,
Friday May 15, 2009
yossi, Jewish population trends, conservative and non-conservative, in the major center of South Florida, are not actually entirely rosy themselves - Broward County Jewish population has dropped 25% in the last 8 years. In Palm Beach County to the immediate north, the large JCC in West Palm is shutting down after only about 16 short years, partly due to demographics. It's relocating to branches where it is doing well, Boynton Beach and Palm Beach Gardens.
55 |
Roddy Frankel,
Sunday May 17, 2009
If Conservative and Reform Judaism are forms of compromised Judaism, then so be it. I would never pretend that they are the future of Judaism, or that they represent an evolutionary step. I would describe them as a lifeline to Judaism that many people cling to. I would rather see people drive to shull than see them drive to church, or worse yet, to a strip club. I have known conservative Jews whose children chose to be orthodox. It can be a stepping stone, so it should not be discarded.
56 |
Steven Cohen,
Sunday May 17, 2009
Reform and Conservative judaism were in part founded because more "modern" jews needed a home consistent with their lifestyles. The actions by these movements e.g. the recent new conservative prayer book which changes portions of the centuries old hebrew text and the reform movements recognition of someone who is jewish who has at least one parent who is jewish clearly have no real basis in halacha. Nevetherless, Rabbi Lamm's comments are not helpful and are a showcase of orthodox contempt of non orthodox jews that will continue to divide our faith.
57 |
George, Florida,
Sunday May 17, 2009
Unfortunately we have had to kaddish for 6 million Jews within our lifetimes. Any Jew who identifies with any branch of Judaism is keeping the flame alive which is what is really important. May all branches of Judaism prosper and expand since one does not really detract or weaken another. Why must our religious leaders waste energy on our divisions rather than concentrate on our commonality? Do any of us have a direct word from HaShem?
58 |
chutz laretz,
Monday May 18, 2009
Conservative and Reform killed thier movements in several ways:
1- By adopting the big bureaucratic Federation systems. People do not personally identify with huge entites that are large impersonal beauracracies.
2- The sunday school systems. You cannot educate young Jewish men and womend with 3 hours once a week on Sundays. Period. Three or four weeks a summer dont help either.
3- Identifying with general social fads rather than Jewish concepts and ideas. Except for small vocal groups of people no one cares about extreme social justice movmements advocated by these movements.
59 |
Cember,
Monday May 18, 2009
When I was about 15, I was in New York for Pesach, and I cracked up laughing when I saw a diner with a huge sign that said "Passover Special for our Jewish Friends!! Ham and Swiss served on Matzah!" Today, many ears later, I realize what a wonderful thing that even those Jews who would go into that diner on Pesach and order a ham and cheese sandwich were actively remembering that we were slaves unto Pharaoh in Egypt, and now we are free. I think we should all remember that, and that none of us have a direct line to the thoughts of hkb"h
60 |
Ilan Israel,
Tuesday May 19, 2009
If he wants to say Kaddish it means he recognizes the Conservative and Reform as Jewish and worthy of Gan Eden.
61 |
Alex USA,
Thursday May 21, 2009
to Ilan 60: Has any one ever said they weren't Jewish? The issue is with what they claim Judaism is. Don't confuse the two. Also, Gan Eden or Olam HaBa? Check into that.
to Justayid 53: The problem is that the Conservative movement is inconsistent. While the Reform openly said that there are no mitsvot, and one can pick an choose what he/she wants to do, the Conservative insist that there ARE mitsvot, and for the large part they are no different then their "Orthodox" counterparts. But they are NOT sticking to their guns. There's compromise on compromise, which is a recipe for disaster.
62 |
Lee Smith, New York,
Wednesday Jun 03, 2009
The Conservative movement deserves to take pride in Camp Ramah, JTSA, and the Schechter schools, USY, visits to Israel. The souls of many Jews are lit up by these institutions and experiences. The problem is what follows -- the fires are too often extinguished by the reality of Conservative Judaism in the congregations of North America. Some escape to Orthodoxy, and become Conservative Morranos, trying to ignore some major philosophical challenges and the unnecessarily poor treatment of women in exchange for vibrant Jewishly committed communities and people who celebrate Shabbat and Yom Tov.
63 |
justayid,
Friday Jun 05, 2009
" There's compromise on compromise, which is a recipe for disaster"
Compromising with modernity, but using serious halachic engagement to do so IS sticking to CJ's guns. There is some disagreement within the movement of what that means in individual cases. I can tell you as a layperson what it does NOT mean. It does not mean deciding that we are no longer a halakhic movement, as per Gilman, G. Tucker, IIUC. And it does not mean panic at the numbers and attempting to become O or refusing to make halachic changes.
64 |
Shel Zahav in Jerusalem,
Monday Jun 29, 2009
The rapid decline of Conservative Judaism is simple to explain: children can't relate to the hypocrisy so they leave. Most Conservative synagogues in America are sparsely populated with old people.
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Eric Carlsen,
Monday Jun 29, 2009
Rabbi Andrew Sacks has every right to point out bad behavior on the part of some Orthodox (Chareidim in particular). But he twists and turns to avoid the demographic juggernaut that continues with its simple mathematics to portend a great reduction in the population and clout of the Conservative movement. Until the Conservatives require Jewish day school for the MAJORITY of its children, have a higher birth rate, lower divorce rate and intermarriage rate, they will continue to decline in numbers. No amount of eloquent speech will make the demographic issues go away.
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Ben Monroe USA,
Friday Jul 10, 2009
The rabbi considers conservative Judaism dead. Others consider rabbinic Judaism which is espoused by UO and O in place of Torah Judaism as dying.
Lately, much too often, rabbinic egos have taken over and the "teachers" speak rubbish. That appears to be the case here as well.
Judaism would be much better served if the supposed leaders would take the time and effort to really get in touch with the Jewish population not in their congregations. Amazing what could be learned and contributed by the "common people".
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Yohanon, Hollywood,
Wednesday Jul 29, 2009
From what I've seen, the Conservative movement is like a ship sans rudder - it (deliberatey) ranges from near-"orthodox" to near-"reform" depending not on the religious leadership but on the board that pays the religious leadership's salary. I saw members of a Conservative congregation drift to Chabad Lubvitch and I am certain (although I didn't see it) some went to Reform before dropping out completely. Pity. Conservative was doing pretty good when it WAS conservative - neither left nor right.
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