Monday Jul 20, 2009

On riots, baby starving, and ways of Torah

Posted by Rabbi Andrew Sacks
Comments: 65
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Of Judaism, and of Torah, we are told "all of its ways are ways of pleasantness."

For the past three weeks we have seen something very different on the streets of Israel's capital, Jerusalem. Tires have been set on fire, trash bins have been set alight, and riots have broken out among the fervently Orthodox.

What brought on this trouble that has resulted in both property damage and physical damage? On the face of it, there were two separate events.

The first event was the decision of the Mayor of Jerusalem, Mayor Nir Barkat, to allow a parking lot to open on Shabbat. This to accommodate the many tourists who visit the city on Saturday. Now, I do not drive on Shabbat. I do not believe that Jewish law permits driving on Shabbat. But Israeli law certainly does. In fact, cars, taxis, and buses (in some cities) run seven days a week. Better, in my view, to accommodate those who wish to drive than to have them ride around for long periods of time until they finally park on the sidewalks. This too was the position of the police that urged the opening of the private lot.

But protest is legitimate in a democratic country and the haredim (fervently Orthodox) have the right to protest what they may view as a concession to the secular citizens and the possible domino effect of opening the parking lot on other Shabbat observance in the city.

But there is no room for violent protest. There should be no tolerance for the wanton destruction of public property. There is no room for calling those who hold a different view "anti-Semites" and "nazis," as was reported by police spokesperson, Shmuel Ben Ruby.

An allegedly mentally ill Ultra-Orthodox Jewish woman,
who cannot be identified by court order and is accused
of starving her three-year-old child, is escorted by an
Israeli Prison Service guard during an appearance in
Jerusalem Friday. PHOTO: AP

The second incident of violent protest (read: riots) came after a mother of four, from the radical Hasidic sect Toldot Aharon, was arrested for starving her three-year-old son. Hadassah Hospital officials confirmed that the child was malnourished and had been subjected to other abuse, both physical and mental. There have always been strained relations between the haredi community and the government (police, social workers, etc). The haredim believe that the charge is a trumped up effort aimed at intimidating the pious into accepting Shabbat violations. But this is just silly. Even more silly is that so many believe it.

Dr. Yair Birnbaum, deputy director of Hadassah hospital (and an observant Jew) , has confirmed that the child had been abused and would need to be hospitalized for some time for the physical recovery alone.

Jerusalem has seen such riotous outbreaks before. We witnessed such behavior with regard to the desire of the Haredi community to close certain streets to traffic on Shabbat. We saw this behavior in protests of the annual Pride Parade. We saw it when there was fear that paving certain roads may disturb ancient Jewish bones (of course no such worry was expressed over the Arab bones in the Mamilla cemetery).

What is going on?

This blog is NOT intended as a criticism of the Haredim (although I certainly condemn their actions in regard to the riots). We would never see such outbreaks of savagery in Haredi neighborhoods outside of Israel. It is understood elsewhere that Jewish law calls for respect of the local law (Dina D'Machulta Dina) and that such ugly and disgraceful behavior only brings shame to God's name.

An Israeli police officer and an ultra-Orthodox Jewish
man argue during a protest against the arrest of a
woman accused of child abuse in Jerusalem, Wednesday,
July 15, 2009. PHOTO: AP

But the rabbis of these communities (not all of them, of course) while paying lip-service to the desire for a peaceful resolution to outstanding issues that trouble them, are not out on the streets demanding restraint on the part of their followers. They do not turn the scofflaws over to the authorities. Quite the opposite, PR specialists are hired to defend and justify the actions of this wayward mob.

So where is the solution to be found?

On the side of the government, there is a need to try to reach out and demonstrate that there is no desire to destroy the haredi way of life. But this is made all the more difficult when the community itself hides, or denies, real issues such as child abuse. When Torah study is used to evade taxes and civic responsibilities, it becomes difficult for the secular public to reach out.

Haredi rabbis must insist that the posters charging a blood libel be removed at once. They must expel youth who riot from their Yeshivot. They may, if they wish, quietly call for prayer and even peaceful marches. 

The name of the Masorti Movement's youth  movement is NOAM (Noar Masorti). "NOAM" means peacefulness or pleasantness. It is the Hebrew word used in the verse cited in the opening sentence of this blog. If we all recognize that the mayor of Jerusalem was elected by a majority of its citizens, if we all accept the rule of law, then we may succeed too in bringing a serene and pleasant life to our far-too-tense city. And that is the way of the Torah.

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1  |   Akiva Avrohum, Manhattan, NY, Monday Jul 20, 2009 I agree with the writers' general comments. However, he always talks negatively about the Haredim Jews. There are bad apples all over. Not just Haredim. Most Haredim are not causing the present riots only the rotten few. These of course are not acting in accordance with Jewish or civil law. I do agree that the Haredim leaders did little to nothing to stop the violence. Thus in fact encouraging it to continue. Yes, a true disgrace on their part and one their maker will hold them into account for ! This hate between Jews must come to end or Hashem will indeed exile them once again from lsrael.
2  |   Meir Jerusalem, Monday Jul 20, 2009 I read that the authorities are negotiating with the haredim as to the terms acceptable to them for this woman who has allegedly abused her children to turn herself in for psychiatric evaluation. She has already defied the court by not showing up as promised. The Haredi rabbis defend her defying of the justice system. I don't get it. If a Reform pr Conservative Jew is arrested for a crime do the police need to negotiate with the ;leaders of the Jewish theological Seminary, or Hebrew Union College, beofre the wheels of justice may proceed?
3  |   yonaton becker, shilo, Tuesday Jul 21, 2009 rabbi andy, you're getting good at this, well done. both tone and content get an a+. i didn't feel my "sinat chinam" hackles going up even once. you've come a long way. on the other hand, if you're not tougher on "those horrible haredim", your blog will surely be less popular. now go in peace my son. :)
4  |   Avrohom - Israel, Tuesday Jul 21, 2009 The blogger writes, "When Torah study is used to evade taxes and civic responsibilities, it becomes difficult for the secular public to reach out." Once again this blogger lowers himself to take an anti-Torah attack on the orthodox and on Torah. Torah is nit used to evade anything. Actually this blogger avoids Torah. Give us a break with your pompous lectures and your false pretense of adhering to Torah. "I do not believe that Jewish law permits driving on Shabbat." What difference does it make what you believe. Torah defines our actions, not your picking and choosing.
5  |   Joseph Lipschitz NJ USA, Tuesday Jul 21, 2009 The haredim are a very close-nit community and know each other families very well. The haredim know that this charge is trumped up, to cover up on the Doctors mistreatment and/or experimental treatment of the child in the hospital for the last 7 months. and their inability to deal with an overly dedicated mother, who is extremely watchful and critical of them. The above phenomina is well documented at www.pnc.com.au/~heleneli/newsletter.htm
6  |   Robert, NY, NY, USA, Wednesday Jul 22, 2009 To Avrohom - Israel comment 4: Stop your hatred towards Jews who have different opinions about things than you. The Torah has many a time been twisted by the Ultra Orthodox to read as they see fit. Men will always be men. Evil goes on in the Orthodox communities as it does in other communities. There is adultery, homosexuality, rape, robbery, incest, mental & physical abuse to women and children. You know this to be true but would never admit it to the outside world. This holier than thou mentality is played out. We are all human. Love and respect your fellow human is all Hashem wants!
7  |   Chris USA, Wednesday Jul 22, 2009 You appear to ignore why global haredi are incensed by the accusation of stravation. The boy was hospitalized for one year prior and the mother was under state monitoring since. The boy has a feeding tube surgically implanted and the mother is accussed of removing and installing it repeatedly (how remains a dubious question). By selectively covering portions of this story the media has inflamed global haredi sentiment against Israel - not just radical haredi sentiment. It now appears that Israel is collectively punishing all haredi, whether or not this is true. We need a better approach.
8  |   Ilan Jerusalem, Wednesday Jul 22, 2009 To # 4 who writes: "Once again this blogger lowers himself to take an anti-Torah attack." What? Rioting against the government is Torah? Lying to protect potential abusers is Torah? Making money from Torah study rather than work is Torah? Letting others do the army is Torah? "The Torah is NOT used to evade anything." Takes? Military service? Civil discourse? You ask the blogger:What difference does it make what you believe? But is not much of Judaism about Emunah (belief). He tells you that what he writes, he does as one who believes in Torah - even if it is not as you believe.
9  |   D'vorah Klein, Bet Shemesh, Israel, Wednesday Jul 22, 2009 D'vorah Klein, Bet Shemesh, Israel Since these demonstartions have occured in my back yard (literally) and caused a major disruption in my Dati Leumi Neighborhood which borders on the Toldot Aharon public residing nearby, I would like to make a suggestion. People/communities who do not pay taxes or do any public service, should not receive assistance from any publically funded services including sanitation workers cleaning up the major mess they made (as part of their "protest") in their own neighboirhood!)
10  |   iphone, Wednesday Jul 22, 2009 Good article , very interesting ...
11  |   Sammy Tel Aviv, Wednesday Jul 22, 2009 Why do the Druze, Beduins, and Cherkaisi (excuse my spelling), who have felt that they have been shortchanged by the government, not riot for their cause? Why is it so often the Ulra-Orthodox? And when will they realize that their education system will forever doom them to poverty and tp the public dole? I guess-as long as they can get the government to pay for their lifestyle - they never will. This blog is spot on.
12  |   To Avrohom - Rob, New York, Wednesday Jul 22, 2009 It makes a big difference what he "believes." It also makes a difference what you "believe." The Torah doesn't say "thou shalt not drive car on Shabbat." It's totally a matter of interpretation. Yes, you INTERPRET too. Or rather, it's your particular collection of rabbis who interpret. You just follow. It's a matter of opinion whether or not walking 2 miles to shul or driving there is more work. And yes, I know very well that you are following an interpretation of the Oral Law, which itself is an interpretation of the written Torah. Just accept that you have one view, and others are different.
13  |   Edwin, Thursday Jul 23, 2009 Maybe you should spend a little time discussing here in "Masorti Matters" just what unique benefit it is that the Conservative reformulation of Judaism has to offer, rather than just ragging on the alleged misdeeds of a community that doesn't get a fair shake in the press, it being such a small minority. Or, maybe you don't have anything worthwhile to offer. In that case, at least you should rename this blog to something like "Orthodox Sucks" rather than "Masorti Matters", which doesn't even reflect honestly the mission you pursue here.
14  |   Toby, USA, Thursday Jul 23, 2009 The blogger writes, "But the rabbis of these communities...are not out on the streets demanding restraint on the part of their followers." The rabbis DO SO condemn the rioters, forbid their students from joining the riots, and take whatever measures they can to discourage people from that behavior. But let's face it: Rabbi Elyashiv, for example, is a very elderly man - not exactly one to go into the street when there are a bunch of hooligans throwing stones! Don't all rabbis have the problem of their constituents not listening to them? (If you can't relate, Rabbi Sacks, you are very lucky!)
15  |   jysuis jyreste, Thursday Jul 23, 2009 As a religious women I expected to hear the voice of rabbis from every kind of kipot or schtremel-(let say that haredi mothers are afraid of telling what they feel about the suffering of this child) to speak aloud for the sake of this llittle boy. Shmirat shabbat is of course very important in itself but what with the life of a human beeing? Where are our Rabanim harachiim, Metzger and Amar. Do they fear haredi rabbis ? Don't they have a conscience? Violence for opening a parking , violence to prevent this mother to be judge, but no voice in favor of this child!!! My heart is weeping.
16  |   Sender, Toronto, Thursday Jul 23, 2009 What about the husband? Haredim have schizophrenics just like everyone else. Problem that they know little about moderrn science & medicine. Social services in a difficult situation. Letting the child die at home is illlegal; arresting the woman was useless. She needs medication which she will probably not be given by her family. The rioting shows the sexual frustration of ypung Haredim. Bad PR for Israel. Erhical problem: Is one child's life worth it? I say:YES . It has made the Haredim look absurd and yet another burden for Israelis.
17  |   caralyn waters, canada, Thursday Jul 23, 2009 We are all human. Gentile, Jew, Christian, Islamic. We are ALL prone to wrongdoing or "sin". None of us are ,"clean". Humanity needs the Torah , or law to help us along the path of life. For some, when the written law is lost in our hearts and mind, we need the customary, state of law to draw us into a path that is not so chaotic. It is obvious that this woman needs some help. As a non jew myself, i have come to Love the Torah. If I came to Israel as a tourist, i would love to live out the law and learn the way of the people. That being said, our paths in life are not for others to own. Shalom
18  |   Shmu Pisgat Zeev, Thursday Jul 23, 2009 To 14: Let's face it-the rabbis are doing next to nothing other than hiring PR firms to hide behind. How many have the rabbis turned over to the police? How many have expelled of those known to have rioted? How many of these rabbis may actually believe that the secular world is out , at any cost, to destroy their sacred way of life? The rabbis could stop all of this just as they did with regard to the Gay Pride riots. But they do not want to.
19  |   grandestgrandma NY, Sunday Jul 26, 2009 The verdict is in The Mother is Not sick very responsible and caring the hospital will have to give up the child. it is being transfered to another institution under the watchful eyes of responsible medical people that promised they will not make a guinea pig of him as did Hadassah Hospital they were very much afraid of that the police were fighting to protect Hadassahs reputation but they can only blame themselves as to what they have done to this child and to his family Now I hope all of you that have jumped to conclusion, I hope you sleep well tonight and have something else to worry about
20  |   Ilan Israel, Monday Jul 27, 2009 As of today the children have still not been examined by the police, despite a court order. Maybe the Haredim are like Hebrew National, they answer to a Higher Authority?
21  |   Avrohom - Israel, Monday Jul 27, 2009 Rob New York #12, sorry you misunderstand the issue. The blogger accepts what he wants because he chooses to accept it or not. People who observe Torah do not choose this or that halachah, they follow Torah. Oral law is not an interpretation of Torah, it is part of Torah. Limitations of language may lead you to insert the word 'interpretation' (your word, not mine) in explaining the blogger's and my perspectives, they are not the same; the blogger forces his beliefs on Torah. Driving or walking to shul is not an issue of 'more' work, but 'work' as Torah defines it. You will argue to no avail.
22  |   Shalom, Tuesday Jul 28, 2009 To 19: If the mother is "not sick" then her actions are criminal. That one psychiatrist (without interviewing the other children and the pediatricians) came to this conclusion in problematic. But if it is so-then the woman, if she is allowed by her community to stand trail, will be charged criminally. As to allegations that Hadassah Hospital acted irresponsibly, I would say- sure, there is one big conspiracy against the Haredim. The hospital made the child a guinea pig. The police fought to protect the hospital's reputation. The only innocents are the poor abusers.
23  |   Norman Gellman, Rehovot, Tuesday Jul 28, 2009 To Avrohom and others. The orthodox seem to confuse Halacha, oral traditions etc. with Torah. Torah is just the 5 books of Moses all the rest are not Torah. Rabbinical interpretation as in Halacha etc are manmade and not given by Hashem. The problem arises by the selecting the Shulchan Aruch & the Mappa both written in the 18th century as the proper interpretation of Jewish law. The Halacha given by latter Rabbis is just supposed to be how to apply the Shulchan Aruch & the Mappa. Unfortunately, many of these rulings have proven scientifically incorrect while other rulings are not feasible in the 21st century. The mindset of the orthodox in many areas such as the status of women and the use of electricity has to brought up to date. The Haredim live in closed enclaves and do not recognize any authority but their own. The current riots are more political than anything else as they are pushing for a bigger slice of the public’s money.
24  |   Shalom Israel, Tuesday Jul 28, 2009 To #23 - The Shulchan Aruch written in the 18th century? You say: "The mindset of the orthodox in many areas such as the status of women and the use of electricity has to brought up to date." You may first get your knowlege of Jewish literature and history up to date.
25  |   To Avrohom - Rob, New York, Wednesday Jul 29, 2009 I don't misunderstand the issue at all. I am very well aware what you, as an Orthodox Jew believe, and what many C Rabbis believe. I am simply telling you that it is quite clearly interpretation to ban driving or electricity on Shabbat. The Orthodox method of interpretation is very technical in nature, leaving very little room for any individual reasoning. That's why you can't make even a little spark. That's why you can't carry even your house keys. I, and many people like me disagree with that view. We think you miss the point of Shabbat rest. Making a fire used to be difficult.
26  |   LK, Geneva, Switzerland, Wednesday Jul 29, 2009 The majority of the haredi are decent, law abiding people; it is the radical few who are motivated by money. They seek to gain political leverage with the ultimate goal of controlling municipal coffers. If permitted to proceed with this perversion, Jerusalem could become the Detroit of the Asian continent.Fortunately, the newly elected mayor sees through this charade and has the courage to enforce civil law. Jerusalem must strive to become the center of business in the Middle East. A marraige of commerce and science is the only chance for peace in the region.
27  |   To Rob - William, Monday Aug 03, 2009 The Torah states that we may not do "any malacha" on Shabbat, that we must "desist from (shavas) all malachot" as Hashem did at the beginning of the seventh day. Separately, the Torah explicitly prohibits making fire on Shabbat. Nonetheless, from what you are saying, you reason that is okay to fire up your car's engine on Shabbat and drive to places to do the activities that you interpret as 'rest.' It sounds like you follow the religion of Rob, one based loosely on elements of Torah!
28  |   To William - Rob, New York, Thursday Aug 06, 2009 I prefer to think of it as "Rob's interpretation of the Torah for the modern world". Is it better to randomly pick a Rabbi (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform) or Priest or Minister, and hope they know best? Or is it better to look at the situation and analyse it to the best of one's ability? If you're Orthodox, you believe in one particular group of views. You believe it is better to play games with Shabbat like "wearing" keys instead of just putting them in your pockets. You probably believe that electric timers are okay. Sounds like a confused way of looking at things to me.
29  |   Cember, Thursday Aug 06, 2009 Assuming that it's the 37 malachot that were required to build the Beit haMikdash that are prohibited on Shabbat, why can't we ride a bicycle on Shabbat? If we use mercury switches, which don't spark, why can't we use electric lights and appliances on Shabbat? Why does having a lift stop at every floor make its use Kasher? How does an eruv turn Bet Shemesh into a walled city? What ever happened to the b'dil tkhelet in the tzizit? Why do we wear a tallit katan rather than sewing the tzizit onto our clothes? Why wear European dress rather than robes with 4 corners? No interpretation? ROFL!
30  |   Marsha in NJ, USA, Monday Aug 10, 2009 Using electricity on Shabbat has nothing to do with "work". Obviously, turning on a light is not work, nor is driving. It has to do with "creation", and taking one day a week to recognize God as the Creator of the Universe, who rested on the 7th day. If you substitute the word creation for work, you'll see why we refrain from certain things on Shabbat. As operating a car involves the completion of an electical circuit, this is where the creation comes in, same with a light. But I agree with #13. Seems we never see here anything related to how the Masorti movement has enhanced religious life
31  |   Avrohom - Israel, Tuesday Aug 11, 2009 Rob, you have no clue what Torah is. Anyone who has the chuztpa to say that you find it OK to follow "Rob's interpretation of Torah for a modern world" is clueless about Torah. You notion about malacha is moronic. You have no idea of halacha and sense of discerning how Torah is a system to live by. For you, Torah is a system to ignore and still pretend you follow Torah. You fool only yourself, if that.
32  |   To William - Rob, New York, Thursday Aug 13, 2009 No chutzpa was needed. I just said explicitly what the VAST MAJORITY of Jews do, to one degree or another. Even if they don't articulate it very well. They make their own choices based upon what they think is relevant and correct. They do this because they trust their own intellect at least as much as one random group of Orthodox rabbis (again, which sect to follow). Just as there is no longer a Temple, I think that there is no longer a clearly authoritative and correct Sanhedrin that I feel compelled to follow. Especially since the Talmud itself is a book of arguments.
33  |   To Avrohom - Rob, New York, Thursday Aug 13, 2009 Let me make it clear: I have no problem with the Orthodox being Orthodox. I just don't like it when they say that their belief system and way of doing things is the ONLY, DEFINITELY CORRECT way. Like it's a clear-cut science. Like it's a fact. That anyone who disagrees with them must be ignorant, a fool, or in some way bad. Just have some humility and accept the slight chance that you might be wrong. If you think a woman shaving her hair and wearing a wig is somehow being modest, go for it, just don't expect that everone will agree with that way of thinking.
34  |   Avrohom - Israel, Thursday Aug 13, 2009 Rob, New York #33, your comments make it clear, once more, you do not understand Torah. The notion of 'clear-cut science' shows you do not understand science either, but that is another discussion. Torah establishes its own system of development and halacha. Your personal feelings and your personal complexes are not Torah. Do not fool yourself. Rob's interpretation of Torah is not Torah, it is only your ego and your lack of humility. Your plea for humility should be directed at yourself, not to those who acknowledge in humility that Torah and Hashem are worthy of Malchut and not mankind.
35  |   Cember, Friday Aug 14, 2009 The Oral Torah (Torah she b'al peh) is, by definition, not from G-d, but from M-n. Even if it is originally from G-d, by the time it passed through the first 25 mouths, it was totally unrecognizable. As an experiment, Avrohom, take any 10 word sentence from todays newspaper. Write it down, and then read it, privately, to one person in your minyan. Have that person repeat it, quietly to someone else in the room. Repeat until it has been repeated by everyone in the minyan, and then compare what the last person tells you to the original sentence. Then tell us that Tushb"ah is part of Torah.
36  |   Avrohom - Israel, Friday Aug 14, 2009 Cember #35, you wrote, " The Oral Torah (Torah she b'al peh) is, by definition, not from G-d, but from M-n." Where do you get your misinformation. Both oral and written Torah were received by Moshe Rabeinu at Sinai. We actually have a messorah about Torah while you have nothing but your won ideas, which are meaningless when discussing Torah. You r ego defines you. Torah is not Cemebr's domain. Your knowledge starts today while ours starts at the beginning of mankind. What can one say. Your perspective has your developement from apes, we know we developed from Adam HaRishon. To bad fro you.
37  |   To Cember (#29) - William, Monday Aug 17, 2009 One could learn much from a deep investigation of each of the halachic, minhagic and historical questions you raise. The Tanna Rabbi Yishmael outlined the 13 methods used by scholarly God fearing Jews to elicit the laws and principles of the Written Torah. (These can be found in an unabridged siddur or in the introduction to the midrashic text Shifra.) Furthermore, minhagim are established halachically in accordance with the sensitivities and needs of individual communities. It is puzzling why you would claim that anyone at all says that the words of the Torah do not require interpretation.
38  |   To Cember (#29) - William, Monday Aug 17, 2009 Correction: 39 malachot (categorical acts of labor) are prohibited to Jews on Shabbat. The act of making fire on Shabbat is a separate Torah prohibition.
39  |   Cember, Monday Aug 17, 2009 Avrohom #36 I wasn't introducing any scientific concept except the idea of experimental evidence. Let's assume that Oral Torah was, in fact given to Moshe Rabenu at Sinai. Let's further assume that, as it is called "Oral Torah", and we know when it was written down, that it remained in a state where it was orally passed from one gaon to the next until it was finally written down. If you will perform the experiment that I suggest in #35, you will discover that oral transmission is very unreliable, and so, we have can't be sure that the written Oral Torah is what was Moshe was told at Sinai.
40  |   To Avrohom - Rob, New York, Tuesday Aug 18, 2009 I'm interested in the TRUTH. My ego is of the least concern. How can you accept the Bible, and still believe in a national, unbroken chain of authority. The books of the prophets themselves contradict you. If you believe Judges chapter 2 and Nehemiah chapter 8 (and many in-between) are in any way from God, you must accept that the chain has been broken. Ezra and his group did RE-INTRODUCE the teaching of Moses after hundreds of years of sin, and the exile. The collection of books in the Bible and certainly the "Oral Law" must be taken on certain degrees of faith.
41  |   To Avrohom - Rob, New York, Tuesday Aug 18, 2009 I have not said the Bible is false, because I do not think it is all false. I do believe there much truth in it, but I do believe in the Documentary Hypothesis. Rabbi David Weiss Halivni (who is greatly respected as a Talmudic authority, even by many Orthodox) has written books explaining that the centuries of Israel sinning has left us a fractured Torah. Ezra had to re-establish the laws. It is at this point that many non-orthodox Rabbis and secular scholars believe the current Torah was finalized. I must disclose that Rabbi Halivni is a very Traditional C rabbi, while I am more reform.
42  |   Avrohom - Israel, Thursday Aug 20, 2009 Rob, you do not understand Ezra. You will not find a single valid Torah source that agrees with your interpretations. Find a Tanah, find an Amorah. Find a Rishon. You will not be able to do so. You have no standing in Torah without valid sources behind you. Once again, you make up what you want and call it Torah. I challenge that you are really interested in truth and that your ego is the least of your concerns.
43  |   Avrohom - Israel, Thursday Aug 20, 2009 Cember you wrote, " The Oral Torah (Torah she b'al peh) is, by definition, not from G-d, but from M-n." By definition? Your definition, not Torah's. Make up what you like. But it has no place in facts of Torah. Your suggestion to prove Oral Torah is not from Sinai is a joke. It also contradicts your foolish statement that "by definition, not from G-d". The difference bewteen us is that I have valid Torah and Torah sources upon which my statements are based and you have no source other than your own ideas. The choice is simple. Do you even know what Oral Torah means? I doubt it.
44  |   To Avrohom - Rob, New York, Thursday Aug 20, 2009 Why do you need the explanations of these men, when the plain words of the Bible are there for you to read? Doesn't Judges 2 clearly state that after Joshua's death, the ancient Israelites descended into sin and no longer worshipped God? Is it not the case that the prophets constantly complain that the children of Israel are sinful for hundreds of years? Doesn't Nehemiah 8:17 state that sukkot was not properly observed from Joshua until Ezra? You are stuck in a logical trap if you believe in the words of the prophets and in an unbroken, national tradition. A small group may be more tenable.
45  |   Avrohom - Israel, Thursday Aug 20, 2009 Rob, your words speak volumes about your ignorance of Torah. You cannot explain correctly a single verse in Torah, let alone understand all that you clai to know. The explanations of 'these men' (you are a mechutzsaf) are gadolim who understand the whole of Torah and have developed themselves to be clear lenses into what Hashem wants us to understand. You, on the other hand, are driven by ego, do not know Torah from Sinai, and make up what you want. Your lack of knowledge tells you to explain something that is contradicted elsewhere. Your opinions mean nothing. Use sources. That is Torah.
46  |   Avrohom - Israel, Thursday Aug 20, 2009 Rob (cont) you are wrong about Tanach. You will not find a single source that explains the pasukim like you try to. You have no standing in Torah. You do not have the backgorund or the breadth of understanding or the tools to expalin a single verse in Torah. Look at the moroninc explanations you pur forth and expect other people to accept your guesses! The entire Shas goes through discourse on pasukim that must be uderstood in the context of every other pasuk. And you come and demand you know the explanation in isolation. Your ego is bigger than the world and your ideas are foolish.
47  |   To Avrohom - Rob, New York, Friday Aug 21, 2009 I don't make up what I want, and I am not driven by ego. I'm only interested in the truth and I don't want to waste my time following false doctrines. The subject of Biblical Criticism has been long established and accepted in universities and non-orthodox rabbinical schools. Any introductory course on religion will teach the Documentary Hypothesis as fact. Richard Elliot Friedman, for example has written several books on the construction of the Bible. You should at least examine the subject before you dismiss it.
48  |   To Avrohom - Rob, New York, Friday Aug 21, 2009 You keep stating that the only correct way to look at the Bible is through the lense of ancient and medieval rabbis. I just think it's a bit circular to state that you need "sources" when the very issue in question IS the "sources" (I'm sure that they were all very educated and respected. I did not intend to disrepect them as anything less). But, they were human and the tradition that passes from man to man can be quite suspect over time. Sometimes people forget or misremember the details of events in their own lives, let alone what occurred in the distant past. Cember makes a good point.
49  |   Avrohom - Israel, Friday Aug 21, 2009 Rob, you could not be more mistaken. You follow "ROB", not Torah. Your disconnect from Torah is palpable. Your chutzpah is a clear signal of real problems you have. In your world you have a better understanding of Gan Eden than Adam HaRishon. In your world the further you are from an event the clearer understanding you have. In your world the less your comprehensive knowledge of Torah the greater your understanding. You do not believe Torah is from Sinai. All of this is clear from your words. The only tenant you accept is ROB. That, Rob, is ego. You are the opposite of humility.
50  |   To Avrohom - Rob, New York, Saturday Aug 22, 2009 I'll leave this discussion with a final question, since it really isn't going anywhere. How did you decide on the religious group (Orthodox, Con, Ref) to follow? Were you convinced of Judaism on your own, or were you following the religion of your parents? Specifically, was there an argument of some sort that made you say "of course, this is obviously correct" or was it always just accepted? I'm actually asking you because I've never been a person of "faith" per se, but rather a person who investigates.
51  |   To Cember (#35/#39) - William, Monday Aug 24, 2009 I remember participating in the experiment that you describe when I was a grade school child... isn't this the game called 'Operator?' You are bringing this child-like activity as proof against the Oral Torah?? Torah is learned by God-fearing Jews ba'al peh, which means that words of Torah are reviewed again and again, meticulously, until they are memorized by heart. The smallest variation is not accepted. This is the way that Torah is learned by God-fearing Jews.
52  |   To Cember, continued - William, Monday Aug 24, 2009 I know a Jew whose scholarship in Torah is far above the average frum lay person. He recently attended a Shabbat meal and knew beforehand the talmudei chochomim invited to the meal. He made great effort to prepare a worthy devar Torah. In it he quoted the Ramban (Rishonic period, 13th cent.). When he finished, a talmud chochim told him that he had misspoke one word of the Ramban. It was in fact a single word that did not materially affect the meaning of the Ramban! If this God-fearing scholarly Jew knew the words of the Ramban ba’al peh, fathom his knowlege of direct words of Torah ba’al peh!
53  |   Cember, Wednesday Aug 26, 2009 Will & Avrohom: At least in my youth, the game was called Telephone. The fact that it was a game does not reduce its validity as a test for the reliability of oral transmission of information. All that it requires for the original to be lost is for one person in the chain to make one mistake. Over the course of 2000 years, it is likely that this occurred more than once. Eye-witness information is equally unreliable. (e.g., What color and kind of shoes was the first man you spoke to this morning wearing?) Anyway, since your minds are made up, I won't try to confuse you with facts or logic.
54  |   Avrohom - Israel, Thursday Aug 27, 2009 Rob, sources: Parshat Mishpatim, Chagigah gimel amud beit, Shabbat kuf lamud chet amud beit. There is no question about the validity of the Oral and Written both from Sinai and the intrinsic and imperative role of Rabbanim and that you have no standing to state what Torah means without valid sources. These are just a few. They are part of Torah everywhere. If you actually knew Torah you would see without a doubt there is no rhyme or reason in Torah without Oral Torah we received at Sinai. Intellectual honesty pulls you to observing Torah regardless of upbringing. Investigation also. Just look.
55  |   Cember, Friday Aug 28, 2009 Avrohom - #54: "If you actually knew Torah you would see without a doubt there is no rhyme or reason in Torah without Oral Torah we received at Sinai." In other words, you are saying that G_d gave Moshe a meaningless book that made no sense without a "teachers' guide" that he issued together with the basic text. He then made sure that the teachers' guide would only be available orally for about 1800 years. You show yourself to be a true mechutsef by claiming to honour the Torah while saying that G_d would issue a meaningless text that is not in itself complete and comprehensible.
56  |   To Avrohom - Rob, New York, Sunday Aug 30, 2009 You keep going in circles. You keep taking for granted the sources you quote, when the question is the validity of the sources. You assume that the particular group of Pharisees who wrote the Talmud were automatically the correct sources. I find that questionable, because it was a self-selecting group. You forget there were other groups called Sadducees and Essenes who are just as old. And I'm sure that there was every shade of grey in between those groups. And then, once you've narrowed yourself down to the Pharisees alone, you're confronted with arguments within that group.
57  |   To Avrohom - Rob, New York, Sunday Aug 30, 2009 Maybe an anology will make things easier for you: The U.S. Constitution was written only 225 years ago, and today there are at least 2 major groups (each with its own subdivisions) that believe they know what was intended. In addition, there are smaller parties. Imagine if today a particular group of Democrat scholars assembled a bunch of essays and discussions about the intended meaning of the Constitution. After that, many of the Republicans start to disappear for whatever reason, so only Democrats are left. Then, people start claiming the Dems are the only true interpreters. See a pattern?
58  |   To Cember (#55) - William, Monday Aug 31, 2009 The Oral Torah and Written Torah are inseparable facets of the Torah given to the Jewish People. One facet can not be understood without the other. It is puzzling why you would claim that a Jew who accepts and observes the laws of Torah would imply that any facet of the Torah is meaningless, chas v'shalom.
59  |   To Rob - From William, Sunday Sep 06, 2009 Your theories about the Torah and the Orthodox world are shallow and place you with those who disparage Hashem and disdain holiness. Your viewpoint forces you to believe that you are a thinking physical being whose life mission is to do what is right in your eyes, to bring yourself pleasure and stave off angst and boredom that would otherwise come. This is acting l’shem atsmo, acting for yourself. The Torah says no. You are a holy Neshama, who like all other Neshamas, struggles through a temporary life inside a transient sleeve, a Neshama that is an inseparable, eternal creation of Hashem. ...
60  |   To Rob (continued) - From William, Sunday Sep 06, 2009 Rob, go find a holy tzadik who serves Hashem l’shem Sh’mayim. Ask him your questions and learn Torah with him. Tzadikim who serve Hashem l’shem Sh’mayim can be found inside yeshivahs and homes in Yeshivish, Chassidish, and Sephardi communities nearby in Brooklyn, Lakewood, and somewhere in Manhattan. Do not look out on the streets or in the places you frequent in the “modern world.” You will recognize a holy tzadik by a presence of intelligence, understanding, acceptance, modesty, humility, sincerity, refinement of character, wisdom, and contentment. ...
61  |   To Rob (continued) - From William, Sunday Sep 06, 2009 You will see in the Talmud a work that has no comparison in its depth and breadth of knowledge, intellect, analytic thinking, and ethical teachings. Spend time with his family and you will see children at every age who are bright, wholesome, respectful, and well adjusted, who can not be products of the modern world. Spend a Shabbat with them and you will taste a comfort and serenity you did not know exists. Do this and you will see the gravity of your situation - you, Yid, are estranged from Hashem and have been ripped off! Rob, go investigate. May Hashem bless you and bring you toward Him.
62  |   Avrohom - Israel, Thursday Sep 10, 2009 Rob, the US constitution and Torah are not comparable. We are not interested in what was intended by authors, trying to pick their brains. We are given Oral and Written Torah as one entitiy. If you ignore one, you have neither. We have no intention to interpret God's intentions. We are not privy to such ideas. We are bound by Torah, oral and written, to understand the proper way to live, what is permitted and what is not. You have no valid source for your notions of work of Shabbat, but Torah is not vague. Oral and written Torah; Torah, makes it understandable.
63  |   To William - Rob - New York, Thursday Sep 10, 2009 You didn't even make an argument. Your evidence of the Talmud's unquestionable authority is quite lacking if the best you can muster is the quality of a Rabbi's children. First of all, I have been to many shabbat dinners. Some Orthodox families are quite lovely and Shabbat dinner is nice, but those families can have problems as well. And on the other side, there are many quite wonderfull, intelligent, and successful non-orthodox families of every stripe. In addition, it proves nothing. Many Christian families are high on the love of Jesus like a drug. Many Orthodox are no different.
64  |   To William - Rob, New York, Thursday Sep 10, 2009 I would assume, William that you have spent much time studying these issues. I would expect a more direct answer from you to support your fundamentalist position. Telling me to go study with Tzadikim indicates you don't have one.
65  |   Cember, Monday Nov 02, 2009 William: Although the Rambam believed that they were mistaken, he did not deny that the Karaim were Jews. No current authority that I know of denies that they are Jews. And yet, one of the main bases of their Judaism is a belief that the Oral Torah is not from Sinai, but rather from man. Therefore, the most that can be said is that there is a dispute as to the devine origin of the Oral Torah. One cannot claim categorically, as you have, that "[t]he Oral Torah and Written Torah are inseparable facets of the Torah given to the Jewish People".
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Masorti Matters
Director of the Masorti [Conservative] Movement's Rabbinical Assembly in Israel (the organization of Masorti/Conservative rabbis), Rabbi Andrew Sacks on Conservative Judaism, Israel, religious pluralism and much more. The views expressed are his own and do not necessarily reflect those of Masorti organizations.

Rabbi Avi Novis Deutsch, faculty member of the Schechter Rabbinical Seminary and Rabbis for Human Rights exegete, previously wrote for this blog. BlogCentral thanks him for his contributions.

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Avrohom - Israel: Ilan #20 continued, my comment about "He is better off encouraging people to keep halacha." is right on the money. Before conservative groups start adding chumrot regarding kashrut that are not really chumrot, the group is better off irst establishing themselves in adhering to actual halachot of kashrut. Afterwards if they want to be serendipitous in piling on non-relevent ideas to their standards of kashrut, well, at least the aspect of kashrut is still there. But until they accept kashrut as an obligation, it is not possible to add more requirements.
Avrohom - Israel: Ilan #20, you misunderstood the post in #18. Those issues already are in Torah and they have their own prohibitions and ramifications. They are not arbitrary. They are not issues of kashrut. They are not issues of churot, as are the few examples you mentioned. Each of the issues you mentioned (except hanukah and purim, whish have absolutely nothing to do with this discussion or issue) are additional fences on halachot that are on the same topic. The principles Reb Andrew talks about are random and off topic and do not all into the catagory of chumrot. This point is simple and obvious.
Ilan: To #18. You say "If the issue is important, it is already included in Torah." Baal Tashchit and Tzar Baalei Hayim are both in the Torah. This is not to replace Kashrut but to add additional standards that can let the buyer make an informed decision. By the way-Hannukah, Purim, waiting between milk and meat, not eating fish with meat, methods of Kiddushin, Gerushin,and much more, are not in the Torah. Are they not important? You say "He is better off encouraging people to keep halacha." That is what he is doing. He advocates for Kashrut AND ethical food production.