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Monday Jun 22, 2009
Gay Pride in the Holy City?! Posted by Rabbi Andrew Sacks
Comments: 85
Let's begin with the Biblical understanding that humankind was created in the image of God. Let us add the Rabbinic claim that the whole Torah exists for the sake of peace (Gittin). Let us be reminded of Reb Nachman's prayer:
In nearly every city in the free world, we find an annual Gay pride parade. Sadly, there are repressive regimes that would not tolerate such a thing. But Israel is a democracy that allows for, in theory if not always in practice, free expression by its residents.This week, Jerusalem will host its annual Gay Pride event. For many years the Conservative/Masorti Movement wrestled with the question of Gay ordination and with the idea of religious commitment ceremonies for members of the Gay and Lesbian communities. Even today, there are a variety of views - some more traditional and conservative and others more progressive. Yet, there are "seventy faces to the Torah," which allows for mutual respect. We can live with varying understandings of halacha [Jewish Law]. As with many matters in Jewish law, rabbis will differ on the flexibility and exact meaning of words which at times may seem to be explicit in their meaning. But this blog is not a legal excursive on Jewish Law and homosexuality. I wish to address the Pride event itself. ![]() Participants in a previous gay pride vigil All too often I have heard it said, "Anywhere but Jerusalem, the Holy city." This city which is so divided, succeeded in the past in bringing together Jewish, Christian, and Muslim leaders in opposition to Pride. Even the Vatican has urged a ban on Pride events in Jerusalem. There are comparisons aplenty to a celebration of sodomy, pedophilia, and pornography. But shall we look at the facts? The sponsors of this event, the Jerusalem Open House, have gone out of their way to work with the police and, quietly, with willing leaders of the religious communities, to be sensitive to the special nature of the city of Jerusalem. The route is short - only a few blocks. It not only avoids any "religious" neighborhoods, it is confined to what is, more or less, a non-residential area and a park. Those with fears of a lack of modesty would have to make an effort to get a glimpse of the action on the parade route. And many do so. Unlike the event in Tel Aviv (which is much more in keeping with the nature of that city), the organizers in Jerusalem have urged participants to behave in keeping with consideration of the varied religious populations in Israel's capital. Nonetheless, the media will focus on the exceptional marchers who revel in a more ostentatious presentation. Over the years the only violence that has occurred was at the hands of the Haredi community. Thus, rowdy demonstrations, the burning of tires and trash containers, and outlandish public posters were a part of the landscape. There was even an attempt to murder marchers a few years ago. This year much of that has been avoided. The Jerusalem Open House has kept a low profile. Members of the Haredi community have figured out that the bawdy behavior raises questions in the minds of their youth that they would rather avoid. The Masorti Movement has never been an official sponsor of the Pride event although Masorti rabbis and members have always participated. But with regard to the right of the Gay community to hold the event, a Masorti position was officially stated, by its head, some years back: "What we are doing is protecting the community's right to hold this event in the face of so much hatred. We're doing this in the name of free speech and tolerance." Jerusalem witnessed Ulra-Orthodox violence when those with other traditions wished to pray at the Kotel (Western Wall) in keeping with their own customs. This month, Jerusalem witnessed Ultra-Orthodox violence when a municipal parking lot was opened in a non-residential spot. Now this is just silly. As an observant Jew, I would hope that Jews would refrain from driving on Shabbat. But the reality is otherwise. Does rioting against a parking lot really serve anyone's interests? Jerusalem is often called the City of Peace. It is holy to people of many faiths. It does not belong to any one religion nor to any one denomination. Pride is about human rights. Freedom of assembly is a basic right in any democracy. Jerusalem residents must respect pluralism and diversity whatever their halachic orientation. Pride, like it or not, a celebration of diversity, tolerance and, hopefully, human respect. These too are values held dear by Jewish tradition.
1 |
Ilan Jerusalem,
Monday Jun 22, 2009
I get it that Jerusalem is disproportionately Orthodox. But is not everyone, within reason, allowed free expression?
I am now reading that right-wing radicals want to hold Jewish Pride parades in Arab villages. This is NOT the same. They do not live in these villages.They seek ONLY to incite. The Gay community, or so it seems, has taken steps to avoid incitement. And Gays live, I presume, in Jerusalem (unlike Iran):
2 |
Rob,
Monday Jun 22, 2009
Why do they need a parade anyway? If they want to be "accepted", then they should quietly go about their lives like everyone else. By having a parade, they anger people by throwing their sexuality into the public sphere. If someone defines them as a homosexual, rather than just a person, they will then get mad. You can't have it both ways. If they were protesting a discriminatory law, I would understand, but this is just a blatent display.
3 |
Kishkeman,
Monday Jun 22, 2009
The CJLS voted 13 for and 12 against allowing homosexual unions. The CJLS also voted 13 for and 12 against keeping the status quo against homosexual unions. It's insane that a rabbi on the CJLS voted in favor of both ruilings. In my opinion, if the Conservative movement really wants to show that it is a halachic movement then it has to find a way to disqualify those decisions where one rabbi voted for and against homosexual unions at the same time. Big tent Judaism hanging on a rabbi who votes for and against the same thing makes the whole wishy-washy label stick on Conservative Judaism.
4 |
daniel mexico,
Monday Jun 22, 2009
You are a joker. Can you say there are 70 faces to torah in such an explicit matter? you rather say you don“t believe in torah altogether, but do not trick people into believing you represent a real form of judaism
5 |
COMMITTEE FOR THE SANCTITY OF ISRAEL-JERUSALEM,
Monday Jun 22, 2009
BS'D
YOU SUPPOSEDLY BASE YOUR SUPPORT FOR TOLERATING THE 'GAY' PARADE
IN THE HOLY CITY OF JERUSALEM ( AND, INDEED HOMOSEXUALITY ITSELF),ON THE
T-ORAH.
WHY THEN, DO YOU CHOOSE TO IGNORE CHAPTER "ACHAREI" IN THE CHUMASH
IN WHICH G-D, BLESSED IS HIS HOLY NAME, COMMANDS THE JEWS:
'YOU SHALL NOT LIE WITH MAN AS WITH A WOMAN...IT IS AN ABOMINATION'!
THE ARROGANCE OF YOUR IGNORANCE IS APPALLING....AND IS COMPOUNDED BY
THE SIN OF ATTEMPTING TO INFLUENCE OTHERS
6 |
Guy - Israel,
Tuesday Jun 23, 2009
What a refreshing article. Thank you Rabbi Sacks for your message of tolerance and acceptance, it's the kind of message Jerusalem could do with hearing a lot more of.
7 |
Chaya Gross Jerusalem,
Tuesday Jun 23, 2009
BH
TOTAL NONSENSE. The "pride" parade is nothing more than IN YOUR FACE.
I recently sent an advertisement from the JPost of this past week to Mayor Barkat about the new Transvestite Bar that opened just opposite city hall. Is that what we want in the name of liberalism and freedom on the steets of Jerusalem. Well that is what is to follow. Jerusalem is NOT like any other city and this desecration of G-d's name will not go unpunished. I for one am not so bothered by what two adults choose to do in the privacy of their bedrooms, but bringing it to the streets like it is normative is sick.
8 |
Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ,
Tuesday Jun 23, 2009
Lets begin with the fact that G-d, in His Torah, calls homosexual activity an abomination. Lets continue with the fact that 'peace' is 'shalom', which has the root 'shalem'--meaning 'whole'. True peace cannot mean ignoring, or actually twisting the Torah to justify what is forbidden. Lets recall that the sin of the golden calf was not a rejection of G-d, but trying to use a forbidden method to have an intermediary between us and G-d. Again, doing something forbidden 'in the name of' supposedly getting closer to G-d. (cont)
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Shalom, Cherry Hill, NJ,
Tuesday Jun 23, 2009
(cont) While I do not justify violence, and agree that living in a democracy, whether itĀs Israel or the US, does require compromise, letĀs not pretend. No matter how sensitive or low key the gay pride paradeĀitĀs still glorifying that which G-d calls an abomination. ItĀs a cause for sorrow, not joy. Gay Jews who love G-d have a terrible challenge, but twisting the Torah is not the way to meet that challenge.
10 |
Mark Birmingham,
Tuesday Jun 23, 2009
I am sad to see Rabbi Sachs quote the Torah 'made in the image of God', then not quote the clear decrees of God on homosexuality but speak of 'values held dear by Jewish tradition' of 'diversity, telerance and... human respect'. There is no repect for your fellow man if you do not show him what God has said on the matter. Trying to not 'say anything' on this while saying 'Pride is about human rights. Freedom of assembly is a basic right in any democracy.' is meaningless and irrespsponsible. If you want to talk about worldly human rights on this issue, then don't quote God!!
11 |
Ilan Israel,
Tuesday Jun 23, 2009
Jerusalem is made up of people of many religious faiths. Why do the Orthodox get to call the shots?
Why does the city pay for the clean up after their riots?
Don't like Pride-stay home.
Don't like Gay marriage-marry someone of the opposite sex.
Now Rightist radicals want a Jewish Pride march in Arab villages. The difference is that this is ONLY to incite and it is outsider trouble makers coming to create chaos.
The Rightists may have a legal right but pointing your finger in the eye of non-Jews is not respectful.
Pride in non-religious areas of Jerusalem shows respect of the Gay community.
12 |
Ben Israel,
Tuesday Jun 23, 2009
Please spare us your phony elucidation of using the traditional Jewish statement that there are "70 faces to the Torah". THre are NOT "70 faces" of claiming that serious violations of halacha (which the Conservatives still claim to follow) can somehow be permitted. There is no way of using "70 faces" to claim that pork is kosher, there is no way of using "70 faces" to claim that theft is permitted, there is no way of using "70 faces" to say it is permitted to speak lashon hara. AND there is no way of using "70 faces" to claim male homosexuality is allowable.
13 |
Avrohom - Israel,
Tuesday Jun 23, 2009
The blogger writes, "Even today, there are a variety of views - some more traditional and conservative and others more progressive. Yet, there are "seventy faces to the Torah," which allows for mutual respect. We can live with varying understandings of halacha [Jewish Law]. As with many matters in Jewish law, rabbis will differ on the flexibility and exact meaning of words which at times may seem to be explicit in their meaning." There is no ambiguity regarding homosexual perversion in Torah and if this blogger thinks there is a valid opinion to allow for this abomination he is wrong.
14 |
Avrohom - Israel,
Tuesday Jun 23, 2009
I support the right of individuals to choose how they live their lives. This is a principle in Torah and the pillar of creation itself. It does not benefit creation to proactively sit in a restaurant with people eating pork and shellfish in order to demonstrate your acceptance of their right to eat non-kosher food. It is absurd to go out of your way to support activities that are 100% in conflict with Torah. Mr. Blogger, you can support the rights of people without marching with them while they blatantly socff at Torah and behave in an immoral and depraved manner. There's no acceptable excuse.
15 |
Shmu Jerusalem,
Tuesday Jun 23, 2009
Amazing! So many of these Talkbacks rant against homosexuality. Rabbi Sacks said NOTHING pro or con. He said the issue of a Pride Parade is one of free speech and not of Jewish law. Why do all the Talkback nut cases not rant against Jews who drive on Shabbat,who shave with a razor, or who eat pork. These too are prohibited by the Torah.
One answer:HOMOPHOBIA.Yes,most (not all) interpretations of the Torah ban sexual intercourse between 2 men.
But ought not people with different views be allowed freedom of expression?
Shall we ban Peurto Rican pride parades in the States? Must they flaunt it?
16 |
William,
Tuesday Jun 23, 2009
There is no way to justify the position of this article. First and foremost, the Written Torah explicity states that the ACT of male homosexuality is an abominable act, and the Halacha has eternally reflected this. It is corrupt to conceal this fact and then turn the issue around to pretend that it is about not accepting people. There would be no resistance to gay people in Jerusalem if they were not publically forcing themselves upon others. The world loves to practice TOLERANCE because... when I leave you alone despite your issues, you then should leave me alone despite mine.
17 |
499c,
Tuesday Jun 23, 2009
Yes, the gay pride parades are "in your face." They have to be. If a gay pride parade bothers you, you are a bigot and a fascist. Don't try to pretend that you are "conservative." You are not. You are molesting the wisdom and the faith of the jewish people to rationalize your own prejudice and your own silly gender roles. This is why the gay pride parades will continue until such time that all of you get off your high heterosexual horse and reevaluate your own values. It is because of people like you, commenters of this post, that young people are turning away from religion.
GOOD RIDDANCE.
18 |
Tzvi/amerikkka,
Tuesday Jun 23, 2009
Who could have guessed that the real reason the liberal 'madoffs' that call themselves conservatives want to be treated equally in israel is to destroy Israeli jewry like they destroyed american Jewry?
BTW any comment on the riots by druse and circassians last weekend? Of course not because the so called masorti lunatics have been tasked to destroy religious Jewry.
19 |
Maranatha,
Tuesday Jun 23, 2009
If G_d is so powerful that He made all we can see and all we can't see, then why can't we understand that He had the power to have man write His Word perfectly? G_d told us in His words that homosexuality is sinful, an abomination to Him. It doesn't say that the homosexual is an abomination as G_d loves them, too. But why question Him? Sounds like a repeat of what happened when our Jewish forefathers worshipped idols. G_d watched with a sad eye for a time, then punished this behavior. Anyone want to move to Babylon for 70 years? Jerusalem is G_d's city. Say no to the parade!
20 |
Hillel NYC,
Tuesday Jun 23, 2009
The conservative movement continues to trample upon the Torah and its ordinances whenever they conflict with 'social norms'. The conservative movement is an abysmal failure and the gay issue is only one of many nails in the proverbial coffin. The mere fact that the gay movement intends to parade their wares in Jerusalem is a political move to incite. It is a tactical move to shove it in the faces of those who adhere to a way of life that is dictated by holiness and reverence for the Torah. But the conservative rabbis are pawns in this game, who in the end (no pun intended) will lose.
21 |
Dupree NY,
Tuesday Jun 23, 2009
Pride in living in a way that contradicts holiness is not something that should be celebrated publicly in Jerusalem. I am reminded of the Yom Kippur balls where the socialists in the early 20th century publically ate ham sandwhiches Yom Kippur evening. The holy city has seen the Torah publically violated before and the resulting destructions according to our sages are very much related. To allow this to happen without protest seems to me to be unwise. For a Rabbi to support this public desecration of Torah tells me to be wary of a movement with some positive ideas.
22 |
Elizabeth,
Tuesday Jun 23, 2009
Progressive Judaism's obsession with the promotion of homosexuality and happy tolerance of related inane pseudo-theological arguments (David and Yehonathan were gay lovers, apparently) has occasioned a large exodus from the movement in favor of Modern Orthodoxy. If you cannot stand the heat of the Torah then get out of the kitchen. Judaism (as do all other religions) condemns and rejects all sexual improprieties. If you choose the religion of latter-day liberalism then you should be frank about your rejection of Torah.
23 |
Lloyd,
Tuesday Jun 23, 2009
Many thanks for another good piece Rabbi. Do not allow your detractors to dissuade you from continuing to tackle the issues head on.
24 |
Bob Fruehling USA,
Tuesday Jun 23, 2009
Is anyone bringing lightning rods?
25 |
Hillel NYC,
Tuesday Jun 23, 2009
The conservative movement is out of the closet and showing itself for what it is; a movement dedicated to the dissemination of foreign philosophies, speaking about its so-called adherence to halacha while it simultaneously tramples upon it. Let no one be fooled, the conservative movement, which has failed in its goals to conserve anything remotely Jewish is now the culmination of sacrificing all that is holy for the sake of the profane.
26 |
Jan, Australia,
Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
The idea of democracy and freedom has been of great benefit to eroding the power of any regime. For those who died at the hands of the Holy Roman Empire or any more recent regime that silenced dissent, the idea that we can say what we want allows us to live. Hurray for free speech and for post 5#. Thanks to free speech we have the Torah openly proclaimed. The Torah does say we are not to keep hate in our heart or carry grudges. But if Israel tolerates those that walk contrary to the Torah, G-D will 'avenge the quarrel of my covenant'. Witness Sodom, Gibeah in Benjamin. Blessed are the zealous
27 |
Yukon Eddie Whitehorse Canada,
Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
The fact that these people have to have annual parades to bring attention to themselves, is proof that their sexual gender is wrong. Maybe its time to have annual heteralsexual parades to bring attention to morallity. Enough said.
28 |
Israel, Miami,
Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
Since when did Israel become a theocracy? I'm proud to have been brought up in the American Conservative Movement and am also proud that's it's leadership finally recognized the civility of equal rights for all.
29 |
Shalom, Cherry Hill,
Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
To 499c-- A brief walk through any religious area--Hareidi or MO--will demonstrate that a high percentage of young people have remained religious. You will also find many Ba'al Teshuva. While there are always a few who leave, the young people that you are referring to are largely those who are leaving the watered down Reform and Conservative synagogues. Likewise among Christians--the evangelicals are growing, while the liberal denominations are shrinking. Also, your silly name calling just demonstrates the emptiness of your argument--in fact, you 'sound' hysterical.
30 |
Baruch Lee,
Wednesday Jun 24, 2009
Cmon,Gay pride?? Lets be real.Of course the Orthos will not support it.It is not concurrent with their philosohy.But then again,their philosophy is inflexable and does not allow for socail progressiveness and acceptance of those that think differently than they do.
Its really a shame because how many Orthos must stay in the closet rather than lead the life that they truly want and can'tcome out?
But the point that Rabbi Sacks is making is that all people,not just jews should be allowed to express themselves(as a group,also) in a public forum without violence.
Freedom of speech is our right
31 |
Marsha in NJ, USA,
Thursday Jun 25, 2009
Condemning the parade has nothing to do with equal rights. No one is saying throw homosexuals in jail, or don't rent them apartments, etc. But what's happening here is a parade, in our holiest city, to celebrate something that is condemned by the Torah. And that is nothing to celebrate. I have an idea. Let them parade through EAST Jerusalem and let's see how long the parade lasts.
32 |
A reader in the US,
Thursday Jun 25, 2009
Want to know why your members are abandoning your movement? Because you're busy "wrestling" with precepts that are prohibited by the Torah, and people are sick of the inconsistency and hypocracy, especially since it's coming from your "leaders". What's left to observe if something that is clearly stated as an abomination becomes an acceptable "lifestyle"? It has absolutely nothing to do with civil rights. It's about accepting the Torah.
33 |
Moshe,
Thursday Jun 25, 2009
I am all for tolerance especially when it's between Jews no matter Orthodox, Conservative, Reform or Liberal.
But when it comes to re writing the Torah to suits ones opinion I can not agree with it.
If two men want to live together I am okay with that, they can kiss or hug each other but to have sex together like a man and woman this is not acceptable.
Over time it's been proven by research that one is not born gay which makes it even more unacceptable that why should a person choose to live a lifestyle like that when he could live a happy normal one and raise a family, so far two men have not been able to reproduce.
If by now you are annoyed with this letter I have to explain I am talking from experience.
I had sex with men and I thought I was born gay.
I am now married with two lovely children kn.
Moshe (Orthodox)
34 |
Micha from Jerusalem,
Thursday Jun 25, 2009
This sort of approach is what's called by Hazal "megaleh panim baTorah lo k'halacha." In other words, taking a smattering of ideas culled from Jewish sources, often ripped out of their true context, and using them to garb ideas which are very much at variance with what the Torah really says. I find this approach not only intellectually dishonest but also dangerous in that it distorts the Torah itself. Another instance in which I've found this is when people espouse all sorts of liberal ideas about war ethics and try to frame them as Jewish notions.
35 |
Eitan Levy, Noqdim, ISRAEL,
Thursday Jun 25, 2009
Mr. Sacks,
1. Of course violence in this case is wrong and those who commit it should be condemned, but to actively support something which is so clearly against the Torah, just because it meshes with some modern, humanist meta-principles is hypocritical for one who claims to uphold the Torah.
3. Tolerance, in this case, would mean to not protest against them. Supporting the parade is legitimizing their life style.
4. Meta principles in the Torah are overruled by specific laws 'to the contrary.' "Love your neighbor as yourself" is true, but also true that Shabbat breakers are put to death.
36 |
Alan Abbey, Jerusalem,
Thursday Jun 25, 2009
Donniel Hartman talks about how Jeruaslem must be for all - secular and religius, gay and straight - [ Link to page ]
37 |
Ilan Israel,
Thursday Jun 25, 2009
#32 asks:Want to know why your members are abandoning...?Because you're busy "wrestling" with precepts prohibited by Torah.
Then why is the Reform Movement growing? Why were so many Jews in America Orthodox 90 year ago and their grandchildren are not? So much for Orthodox keeping Jews in the fold.
To #31- And Israel is a democracy and not a theocracy. So why should people not express themselves on an issue that you feel is against the Torah?
To #3- why can't rabbis recognize and appreciate the validity of two different approached to Halacha and accept both allowing the local rabbi to decide?
38 |
eric A Israel,
Thursday Jun 25, 2009
"Rabbi" Sacks, you are as rabbi as I am Chinese! If you believed that torah is G-d given then you would not support that horror. Real Judaism is against hmosexuality, which is a grave sin. Now you are doing your best to influence the weak and ignorants. I am ashamed someone like you is Jewish.
Our land is called the Holy Land it is not Paris or LA, if you don't want to behave morally then it is your private life but do not try to influence people with your hidden agenda which is godless.
I know your "rabbi" diploma is not Orthodox, so...You should be ashamed!!!
39 |
Shalom, Cherry Hill,
Thursday Jun 25, 2009
To Baruch Lee--If you believe that 'Orthodox' philosophy is inflexible, it is because you choose to confuse the limitations of some individuals w/the philosophy of a movement-- as if ALL liberals were narcissists like Bill Clinton and John Edwards. Of course, there ARE standards, and absolutes (Torah is True) which to many 'progressives' is a sin, but within that structure is flexibility (such as possibility of abortion if life of mother is threatened, and birth control). With freedom comes responsibility, and choosing to publicly rebel against the Torah is a miserable use of that freedom.
40 |
matityahu,
Thursday Jun 25, 2009
To say that the organizers of the parade took steps to avoid incitement (comment #1) is disingenuous - simply having the parade in a city with such a large observant population is sure to cause incitement. That would be the same as saying that eating pork at the Kotel wouldn't cause incitement because the nonkosher consumer is not attempting to enforce his views on others, but is merely eating his lunch. Nonsense. It's not only the haredim who object. One can take a live and let live attitude concerning peoples' private lives, but not when nonhalachic views are foisted upon the community.
41 |
Lloyd,
Thursday Jun 25, 2009
#32 and others, there is quite a difference between accepting the Torah for yourself, and imposing it on others, and again between adopting a particular interpretation of Torah, and imposing it on others. At what point in Jewish history has there truly been uniformity of belief and conduct? The question then is, how to live together when differences exist. You can accept opposing views and basic civil rights to express them, even when you disagree. Our history shows we are not strong when we factonalize and fight each other.
42 |
maranatha,
Thursday Jun 25, 2009
G_d made laws, and we can choose whether or not to follow them. But whether or not we follow them doesn't change His laws. When we take parts of the Torah and decide what we want to ignore, we are creating an idol, our own G_d. "I believe in a God that doesn't punish homosexuality." That doesn't change the attributes of G_d, nor does it create a new, true G_d. He is perfect. He cannot change, for then the perfect would become imperfect. This has nothing to do with tolerance or freedom. It has everything to do with honoring G-d and G-d 's laws.
43 |
Baruch Lee,
Thursday Jun 25, 2009
Torah Smorah....... This is NOT about religion.Can't we just concetrate on human rights and free speech?
The golden rule.....treat others as we would want to be treated
44 |
Mark Edinburgh uk,
Thursday Jun 25, 2009
Hi to all!
I'm gay myself, but I do not think going to this parades is something a smart person should do - I never would, because it's just a silly show, making people believe that all gay people wear leather pants and colorful feathers. Stupid way of promoting somebody elses sexuality, which I believe is a private issue.
Moreover, doing this in a holy city for many is unnecessary, offensive and is just disturbing their peace. What will this achieve for gays? Nothing at all, or more hatred maybe.
So, to gays in Jerusalem: stop being simple twats, you idiots!
To everyone else: I'm sorry.
45 |
Shalom, Cherry Hill,
Thursday Jun 25, 2009
To Baruch Lee--post 43--thank you for clarifying so well your point of view--"Torah Smorah"--clarity is valuable in a discussion. Those who are against the parade would never denigrate the Torah in that fashion, and while not all who support it are as dismissive and you are--your comment speaks volumes. The Torah isn't just 'religion'--it's G-ds revelation to us. You have the human right to literally eat manure if you care to, but it's a disgusting practice and should be done privately. Free speech is also limited--like not yelling fire in a crowded theater (unless there is a fire).
46 |
William,
Thursday Jun 25, 2009
Ilan Isreal #37: "Why is the Reform Movement growing?" In 1984 the Reform Movement instituted a policy of "paternal lineage." - the children of the non-Jewish wife are considered Jewish. Also, rates of intermarriage among the Reform are greater than 50%. Reform temples are now filled with non-Jewish members. "Why were so many Jews in America Orthodox 90 year ago and their grandchildren are not?" Their grandchildren are turning back to Orthodoxy - in droves- and raising large Jewish families. Baruch Hash-m.
47 |
William,
Thursday Jun 25, 2009
Copntinued, Ilan Isreal #37: "Why can't rabbis recognize the validity of two different approaches to Halacha?" The Reform movement rejects halacha. Halacha is derived from the Torah to reflect the will of Hashem for G-d fearing Jewish people to follow. "Approaches" outside of this context have no meaning (and would appear comical if they were not distressing).
48 |
matityahu,
Thursday Jun 25, 2009
Re: # 37. Actually, the reason so many Jews have been lost in America is because the Reform & Conservative intermarriage rates are so high, not because Orthodoxy loses them. Some estimates have Reform/Conservative intermarriage rates at 65%+ and 40%+, respectively. Although Reform claims some 1.3 million adherents, the CCAR counts its people by synagogue membership, which is extended to non-Jewish spouses and people of non-Jewish mothers. Estimates have the number of non-Jewish members of Reform at more than 350,000. The assimilation loss from Orthodoxy is actually quite low.
49 |
Marsha in NJ, USA,
Friday Jun 26, 2009
Baruch, you're missing the point. This is NOT about free speech. This is the equivalent of yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. You don't have an event like this in Jerusalem not knowing you're going to offend a majority of the city. This is being done "davka" (on purpose) to flaunt their anti-Torah lifestyle in the city's collective face. If it was just about rights, why not have it in Eilat? Why not in Haifa? No, these people want to aggravate as many religious sensitivities as possible. And the best place to do that is Jerusalem. Shame on them. The biggest shanda is, Sacks is all for it.
50 |
William,
Friday Jun 26, 2009
Baruch Lee #43: "The golden rule.....treat others as we would want to be treated" THIS IS A CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLE - not the Torah concept expressed as "Do not do unto others what is hateful to you." If you are Jewish you should learn more about authentic Torah!
51 |
Anon Yvr,
Friday Jun 26, 2009
Its called SIN my friend. SIN --- Thats what separated man from Almighty GOD. Please do not try to reinvent the word of God. GOD will not adjust his cloak of rightousness to fit the man. He adjust the man to fit his cloak of righteousness.
52 |
Claudia, Tampa FL, USA,
Friday Jun 26, 2009
If homosexuals had ANY respect for religion or the Holy City they would not be holding their parade of depravity in Jerusalem. This is just a display of "in your face" insensitivity that the rest of us are supposed to be sensitive to. They will certainly get their reward, but first by the loss of those of us that once supported equality for them, and no longer do because of this. What goes around, comes around.
53 |
RJP3,
Friday Jun 26, 2009
If you believe the Torah --- do not have homosexual relations.
If you do not - do what you believe as adults should be free to make their own choices.
Period.
Anything else is religious facism.
This "God Made Laws" is just silly --- God's laws are for believers ... and should help a believer with his personal life choices. Why must people act out on the need to control other adults and keep them second class citizens because they do not conform to things they CHOOSE to believe.
Anyone who is quoting a religious book as CIVIL LAW is a dangerous as HITLER.
54 |
Liza,
Friday Jun 26, 2009
Why are you people making the Gay communities about your own insecurities? I'm not Gay but my husband and I happened to find ourselves on Ben Yehuda St. in Tel Aviv, in the middle of the Gay Parade and I thought it was an extremely refreshing experience. You could feel an atmosphere of genuine peace and happiness whilst on a usual day all you feel is the atmosphere of bitter and frustrated people rushing around like lunatics. What are you talking about punishment when there is only one Judge and he is the only one who determines who gets punishment...as in being a nasty little gossip monger
55 |
Akiva Avrohum, Manhattan, NY,
Saturday Jun 27, 2009
This article is a real sham by a person who calls himself an observant Jewish Rabbi. What actually does this Rabbi observe to still call himself a Jew? Peace and love is fine but not at any price. There are standards which just cannot be compromised. Gay pride is a sexual expression and not some right people should parade around in public. The gay lifestyle is not permitted by the Hebrew bible. This is not interpretation but fact. You just can't change things to fit your lifestyle! Shame on you Rabbi Sacks.
56 |
Eli, Florida,
Saturday Jun 27, 2009
I wasn't aware that there was a right not to be offended, yet person after person here has expressed the ridiculous idea that because they find a gay parade offensive, it has no right to take place. Bigoted self-righteous "religious" zealots offend me all the time, but I don't claim the right to ban them. These nutbags here use the Torah as a weapon, beating down all whom they oppose, just the same as do Christian and Muslim fanatics. Believe in the Torah any way you want, but keep it at home. Don't "flaunt" it in public.
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Ya'el,
Saturday Jun 27, 2009
I get amused when people say things such as "Only God can judge." Well, guess what? He already did through his inspired Scripture as revealed to mankind. God, who does not change already revealed homosexuality to be an abomination. So, next time people are slinging around the phrase "Only God can judge," just remember... he already did!
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Ilan Israel,
Saturday Jun 27, 2009
Can just one of these fanatics who hide behind the Torah to justify their Homophobia show me exactly where in the Torah a "homosexual lifestyle" (whatever that may be), being homosexual, or being Lesbian is prohibited? At best, anal sex between men is prohibited.
And which democracy endorses majority rule without protection of the minority? If that were the case it would have been the right of majority in primarily white towns in the southern USA in the 50s to deny Blacks free expression.
Is it OK for Jews in Iran be denied free expression because they "offend" the majority?
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Shalom, Cherry Hill,
Sunday Jun 28, 2009
To Eli #56-- Apparently you don't believe in democracy, then, or sensitivity. After all, a majority of Jerusalem is religious or traditional, and don't want that kind of public display there. A city with a very secular majority like Tel Aviv has different standards-- is sensitivity and tolerance only a one way street? Bigoted self righteos 'secular' zealots offend me all the time, but I don't claim the right to ban them, just to limit their public displays to where reasonable. Be as flaming gay and heretical as you want, but keep it at home- don't 'flaunt' it in public.
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Marsha in NJ, USA,
Sunday Jun 28, 2009
To Liza (54): Pity that you found "genuine peace and happiness" watching the gay parade in Tel Aviv. I suggest you try experiencing Shabbat in Jerusalem. To Eli (56): don't "flaunt" the Torah? In Israel? The Jewish State? I suppose Florida is a hotbed of tolerance. Florida, where a gay couple can't even legally adopt. Instead of espousing ignorance of Judaism and supporting deviance in Israel, why not try to change Florida law first? Then you can worry about "bigotry" in Israel.
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Shalom, Cherry Hill,
Sunday Jun 28, 2009
To Liza #54-- If you are in favor of gay pride parades, then you chose the proper environment in deciding to live in Tel Aviv. On the other hand, the large majority of people who choose to live in Jerusalem do so because of it's holiness, and strongly disapprove of gay pride parades. While you feel differently, why is it wrong to tolerate a more religious POV in their neighborhood? Your point re gossip is a straw man argument, as you will surely agree that 2 wrongs don't make a right--gossip is wrong too, and by the way no one is having a gossiper pride parade, are they?
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Shalom, Cherry Hill,
Sunday Jun 28, 2009
Please, Ilan, you can certainly do better. I'm sure you know that the Torah calls homosexual sex an abomination--are you then arguing that it's logical that men kissing, fondling, marrying is appropriate in G-d's eyes? You'd have to be a true 'fanatic' to believe that. What does protecting the minority have to do with their parading their deviancy in a religious area? They can and do parade in Tel Aviv. The black in USA argument in BS, as gays can live where they choose, vote, and so on. By the way, Israel doesn't have separation of church and state as the US-or hadn't you noticed?
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Ilan Israel,
Sunday Jun 28, 2009
Shalom:Exactly who made you king to decide which cities are OK for Pride and which not?
You state "the large majority of people who choose to live in Jerusalem do so because of it's holiness."Is that so?Can you find one survey to back up your self-serving assertion?
Do you approve of Hardim,flaunting in public, opposition to the Supreme Court or support for the criminal Deri?
You claim 'Free speech is also limited." Yes, by the courts, not by you.The courts have held that this is NOT provocative incitement.
You say-keep Gay in the bedroom.
I would say to you: Keep Homophobia in your bedroom.
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Akiva Avrohum, Manhattan, NY,
Sunday Jun 28, 2009
Just read post 17. That says it all about why a gay parade in Jerusalem. In your face is their motto! They only care about their own sexual lifestyles and could not care less about offending others who think differently. The truth is that the homosexual movement is just a group of people who want to make same sex relationships equal to heterosexual relationships. They know themselves that their lifestyle is not the norm, but are determined to make it so anyway. This is all about sexual freedom. It has nothing to do with what is right or wrong! It is about the selfish me and nothing more!
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Shalom, Cherry Hill,
Monday Jun 29, 2009
To Ilan--per [ Link to page ] , a good guess is that app. 70% of J'lem's Jews are Religious or Traditional-- go ahead and argue that they want open gay pride parades. Can you find 'one survey to back up your self-serving assertion'? Who made you king to decide that a majority religious area should have gay pride shoved in their face? I don't approve of Haredim, or anyone, 'flaunting' anything, but that's just avoiding the issue. You can use BS insults like homophobia but it only shows the poverty of your logic, & I notice you moved on from implying G-d approves of gay actions.
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Bryan -Los Angeles, USA,
Monday Jun 29, 2009
If the Orthodox want to discriminate against secular Jews, this is the wrong time and wrong place. It is self destructive. If Israel wants to transform itself from a democracy to a theocracy then so be but the cost will be very high. Israel is facing international isolation and loss of its significant ally, the United States, and American secular Jewry; the narrow minded focus to discriminate against gays, besides being morally bankrupt is intellectually vacuous. It is time to see the forest for the trees. Jews must unite to sustain the existence of the State of Isreal.
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