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Thursday Oct 15, 2009
Civil Unions in Israel - but not for you Posted by Rabbi Andrew Sacks
Comments: 72
I continue, despite nearly 22 years of living in Israel, to be flabbergasted at the (select any of the following adjectives) stupidity, naivete, incompetence, ignorance and close-mindedness of our Knesset members.
Yesterday I attended a meeting of the Knesset Law Committee where a bill to legalize civil unions was discussed. Such unions would grant couples most rights enjoyed by married couples. Many countries have such a law. In some, it allows couples to choose this path rather than a traditional religious ceremony. In others it may be augmented by a ceremony. Still elsewhere, it provides a solution for those unable to marry under state law. Here in Israel all marriage is religious (read: Orthodox for Jews). This means that two Jews may marry via the official rabbinate. Two Catholics may marry in the church. Muslims may also marry one another in their faith tradition. But Israel has over 340,000 citizens unable to marry at all. Imagine, a democratic country where such a sizable portion of the population must travel to Cyprus, or elsewhere in the world, to be registered as a married couple. These are mostly citizens who immigrated under the Law of Return but who are not halachically Jewish (not Jews in the eyes of Jewish law). They may live as Jews in every way, but they were not born to a Jewish mother and conversion in Israel is, even when one is willing to be demeaned by the process, nearly impossible. I do not favor intermarriage. I work hard to see that a Jew will choose to marry a Jew. But it is just silly, presuming you do not favor a theocracy, for intermarriage to be illegal (of course, that is, unless you have the money to fly to Cyprus for the day). But even more silly is that there is no way for those with no official religion to marry at all. There is also no way for same-sex couples to marry (Israel will register the unions of gay couples married in countries that provide for this). There is no way for one of the 340,000 who may fall in love with a classmate, or a fellow soldier serving in the IDF, to wed. The current situation does not prevent intermarriage. It only makes it more troublesome and costly by necessitating a trip abroad. Thousands of Israeli Jewish couples who would be eligible to marry in Israel also choose to go abroad owing to a strong distaste for the official rabbinate (Many will then have a Jewish ceremony performed by a Masorti or Reform rabbi. Such ceremonies, without the civil wedding abroad, will not be registered by the state). A clear solution to this mess would be to pass legislation enabling civil unions. This would not lead to Mamzerut, as many authorities hold that a civil union does not have the same standing as a religious ceremony. Such unions would allow anyone of age to marry the person of their choice, as long as they were single and of age. Most Jewish couples would still decide on a traditional marriage - but this way it would be by a rabbi of their choosing and not necessarily one who subscribes to a brand of Judaism wholly foreign to the couple. This would allow the 340,000 to marry in the country in which they reside. But this is not the law committee chair David Rotem tried to push through in a quick session. He proposed a law which he, himself, admitted was badly flawed. He proposed that only those without any religious identity at all would be allowed to join in a civil union, and only to one another. Estimates are that this would benefit, at best, a hundred couples a year- but most likely far fewer. Rotem suggested that a more complete law could be passed in about fifteen months. But that is nothing more than political posturing. Even worse, this new law would allow the Interior Ministry and the Orthodox Rabbinical Courts to determine who is not Jewish. Let me remind the readers of this blog that there are hundreds of people who have been stymied in their efforts to make aliya by the Interior Ministry's delays in determining religion. The Rabbinical Courts have showed their contempt for the state and for the law by invalidating conversions performed by Israel's own Orthodox rabbis and by delaying for long periods their determination of a person's status even in cases where they were clearly Jewish. Yet Rotem would empower these very bodies to decide who are the chosen few lepers of society who may have a civil union. Pathetic? Absurd? Ridiculous? You make the call. There are those who see this very limited law as a crack that will open up the doors to others in the future. I see that as wishful thinking. My view is that this is little more than a bone thrown to the Yisrael Beiteinu party so it can claim to its Russian supporters to have moved the issue of civil unions ahead. The time has come for real legislation allowing alternative in marriage for all citizens of Israel. I can already hear those who claim, "But this is a Jewish state." Guess what? This may a Jewish state, but are we going to leave so many of our citizens, many of whom made aliya under the Law of Return, without a way to marry? I sure hope not.
1 |
Shel Zahav,
Thursday Oct 15, 2009
This is a thinly-veiled attempt by the failed Masorti "movement" to gain a foothold in Israel. The author has a vested interest in promoting this heavily Americanized version of not-very-accurate Judaism. It is always easy to point to what is wrong. Let the author show us how he has improved things. So far, all we see is a very assimilated American Conservative Jewish population that doesn't make aliyah and doesn't incorporate much in the way of Jewish principles in their lives. We don't need that here.
2 |
Ilan Israel,
Thursday Oct 15, 2009
To#1-you criticize the Masorti Movement so be it.You clearly do not give a hoot about the scholarship and many committed Jews who owe their education and observance to the Conservative Movement(Masorti, Ramah,Solomon Schechter,Conservative Yeshiva,JTS,AJU,etc.
But what does this have to do with the lack of civil rights about which Rabbi Sacks speaks?He is not pushing a Movement agenda but an agenda to grant freedom to all Jews,from Orthodox to secular,and to all citizens of the state of all religions.
Do you really want a democratic Jewish state that bars so many citizens from marrying at home?
3 |
Danny Hershtal, Kiryat Shmuel,
Thursday Oct 15, 2009
This provocative article is misleading. Anyone in Israel can marry anyone else of any gender through any clergy they desire. It is not "illegal" for any two - or more - people to marry and live as a married couple (or triple, etc.).
What is true is that only those married in ceremonies by government approved individuals are recognized to receive the government approved "benefits." These approved individuals could be approved religious authorities in Israel, or approved agents of marriage in other countries. The "benefits" one receives are virtually irrelevant to most married couples.
4 |
Aya Jewhuasca,
Thursday Oct 15, 2009
#1, Why don't you go and live in Iran under the Mullah's or go join the Taliban? Say what you want about the "assimilated American Conservative Jewish population", but at least they stand on the side of democracy and civilization, not on theocracy and barbarism. I can't say the same for you and those of your ilk. Israel is a democracy the promises equality for all its citizens. If you have a problem with that notion maybe you should leave. Rabbi Sacks is a hero to those of us that don't want to see a Jewish Taliban dictating all facets of the lives of every Israeli.
5 |
S. Diehl,
Thursday Oct 15, 2009
Aya Jewhuasca, "maybe you should just leave" is not a valid argument and, in fact, is the attitude by so many that has caused the current mess. Having said that, I agree with you on all your other points. Clearly, theocracies are a bad idea everywhere.
6 |
Ilan Israel,
Thursday Oct 15, 2009
To #3. You are flat out wrong. Israeli law makes it criminal for those not authorized by the State to perform a marriage to do so unless the couple is first legally married outside of Israel.
And why should those others who marry as you suggest be denied the benefits of marriage ( mortgage, hospital visits for the terminally ill, survivor's pensions,etc).
7 |
Michael Myers Chicago,
Thursday Oct 15, 2009
To Aya #4
How sad it is that you think that you can influence intelligent people by the iimmature tactic of name calling. No reasonable person would equate Orthodox people to "the Taliban" and "mullahs". They, like you, want what is best for the Jewish people. Well-meaning and intelligent people can differ on this important issue, and you are certainly entitled to agree with Rabbi Sacks. I can respect his view even though I strongly disagree. Stick to the issues and avoid pointless ad hominem arguments that only engender Sinat Chinam.
Michael
8 |
Dupree NY,
Thursday Oct 15, 2009
Rabbi Sacks makes good points and I'm Orthodox. Once again when the Orthodox do not address the problem in a satisfactory manner it opens the door for heretical movements to do so.
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Tim, Petah Tikva,
Thursday Oct 15, 2009
Hey, Knesset, step into the 21st century. It's nice here, you just need the courage to advance into the Common Era and get in step with the majority of Israelis; they're already here!
10 |
Tel Aviv Jew,
Thursday Oct 15, 2009
To #3 Danny - If having your union officially recognized is, as you say, "virtually irrelevant to most married couples" why does the Orthodox power structure hold it so tightly in its fists? Being married grants important legal and medical rights, as well as tax benefits for purchasing a home. Why should my my family be financially punished just because the orthodox religious power-structure won't stamp my family as 'kosher'? The right to marriage and build a family is fundamental - Orthodox Jews know that better that anyone else. Shame on the rabbinate for blatant discrimination against Jews!
11 |
Ben, Jerusalem,
Thursday Oct 15, 2009
It's a disgrace to call yourself a rabbi, who supposedly represents and guides in jewish matters. Democracy and freedom means more to you than basic halachic principles! It's more important to be like other democratic countries and than to do G-d's will!?
You claim that the law is problematic because of the large number of people that's affected by it, and can't be married because of their beliefs or tendencies. Well, does that mean that we should accept shabbes desecration, just because most jews don't keep it? Make it religiously permissible?
Yes, Israel isn't the right place for all jews
12 |
A reader in NJ, USA,
Thursday Oct 15, 2009
The real issue is who Israel recognizes as a RABBI. And I have to agree with #1. A movement that has led to assimilation and intermarriage in America, has no right to demand equal religious rights in Israel. ANYONE can get married in Israel, as long as they are Jewish. To say that a couple wants a Rabbi that subscribes to their version of Judaism is absurd. What difference does it make for the 15 or 20 minutes you stand under the chuppa whether or not you practice the same way the Rabbi does? We're not talking conversion here. You can eat pork on Yom Kippur and still be married by a Rabbi.
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Michael Myers Skokie, IL USA,
Thursday Oct 15, 2009
Name-calling is the weapon of choice for those who have no intellectual ammunition.
Aya #4, should avoid equating Orthodox Jews with the Taliban and Mullas. Their vision of Israel is different than yours. That doesn't mean that they belong in Iran.
Stick to the issues and avoid the name-calling. They have as much right to live in Israel as you do.
14 |
David United States of America,
Friday Oct 16, 2009
As an intermarried individual, I am obviously in favor of it (unlike Rabbi Sacks). I am also in favor of keeping Orthodox Judaism as the "state religion" of Israel, but like most Americans I find theocracy difficult to stomach. With regards to affairs of the heart, especially marriage, there should be civil law that "trumps" religious law. Maybe I feel this way due to my American upbringing, but the marriage of church and state has always made my stomach queasy! For Israelis in love to be forced to marry outside their own country is nauseating. Civil marriage is long overdue in Israel!
15 |
Marc,
Friday Oct 16, 2009
Many forget how many of Conservative/Masorti have been assimilating to the point of disappearing. There is no doubt that we have what to work on, but lets not forget who we are. The more we distance ourselves from our tradition (i.e. Masorat) towards being like everybody else, the less we become. The Conservative/Masorati movement has much to offer, they have to remember who they are and where they come from. They should work to build not to tear down.
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Dov Israel,
Friday Oct 16, 2009
Israel is not a "civil" democracy like America, it's being a JEWISH state gives it a Jewish character and by definition does not have seperation of church and state. Sinc the giving of the Torah the Halacha has been passed down and preserved through the leading Rabbis of what translates today to those who follow and keep Halacha as Hashem presented at Sinai and has been directly passed down until it's codification in the form of the Germara (see Maimonedes intorduction to Mishna Torah). We don't need to apologize for the Torah nor will we ever sacifice the sanctity of the Jewish people.
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Ilan Israel,
Friday Oct 16, 2009
Why all of these talbacks about Masorti and Reform Jews assimilating? If Orthodoxy was so adept at retaining their own, then why is it that so many of today's assimilated Jews had Orthodox grandparents? Should we blame Orthodoxy for causing the assimilation? of course not. So let's stop blaming Conservative.
And does anyone in their right mind belive that banning intermarriage by law,as is done in non-democratic, Fundamentalist Muslim states should be the apprach taken in Israel?
Is the not the best way to deter intermarriage through education and not legislation?
18 |
Joel Drouet, Tel Aviv,
Saturday Oct 17, 2009
I'm a Zionist and a Jew. My heroes were the (mostly) atheist and agnostic Jews like Ben-Gurion whose Jewishness was so profound that they built this country and made it possible. To see a narrow bunch of zealots dictating to all of us is sickening. You know, the Nazis didn't give a flip whether we were Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, or secular. Neither do our current enemies. How they must laugh, watching us debate "heresy" while Israel's position in the world grows less secure. We seriously need to embrace each other and hang together if we're to hang on at all.
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Shel Zahav,
Saturday Oct 17, 2009
There is no such thing as "Orhodox Judaism". That is a pejorative term thought up by Reform Jews in Europe 200+ years ago and attributed to observant Jews in order to curry favor with the Christians of the day. In America, when that wasn't enough, the non-religious invented a new pejorative term, "ultra-Orthodox". There is no such thing and our leftist, misguided brothers and sisters would recoil in horror if somebody called a Mulsim jihadi "ultra Orthodox". For the record, there are Jews who put Torah at the center of their lives and Jews who don't..
20 |
Ram Venisa Kfar Sava,
Saturday Oct 17, 2009
To Joel #18. Your is a re-hash of an old, stupid argument. Jews do not define themselves by what the Nazis thought or did. Ben Gurion had a vision of a secular Jew knowing his Torah and history, but all he got was a secular ignoramus Jew-- "Hebrew-speaking goyim" as they have been called. We seriously need to embrace our heritage, Torah and peoplehood, if we're to hang on at all.
21 |
Stein,
Saturday Oct 17, 2009
American Jews are Jews too.
American Judism is Judaism too.
22 |
Stein,
Saturday Oct 17, 2009
Maimonedes says conversion to Judaism should be EXTREMELY EASY. It should take less than day.
23 |
Alex, London,
Saturday Oct 17, 2009
interestingly, everyone calls for unity which is definitely a good thing, particularly in the face of world wide hostility (Swedes yesterday, Turks today, x tomorrow). The trouble is everyone wants everybody alse to unite under THEIR philosphy, i.e. unite with ME not that I should G'd forbid unite with you.
A solution should be found with a common denominator, e.g. a kosher chicken tastes the same as another so the country should be kosher (even if it costs a bit more, after all our forefathers were prepared to pay with their lives for this). it is intransigence that prevents unity.
24 |
Leah, California,
Saturday Oct 17, 2009
I was raised in the Conservative Movement of the 1950s and have witnessed since then the horrific take-over of the Movementt by socialist activists with a thinly disguised anti-family, anti-Israel agenda. I urge Israelis to keep as far as they can from the Masorti/Conservative Movement and its bogus teachings. The Movement is washed up in the U.S. with rapidly declining membership everywhere. In order not to become extinct, they decided to push their failed Movement in Israell, claiming to give "choice." If you want no more generations.in your family, then folllow the Masorti to oblivion.
25 |
Justina,
Saturday Oct 17, 2009
#17 Ilan you are absolutely correct. People forget that there is a reason a lot of Jews are not Orthodox. The denominations that have emerged are the effect, not the cause. Are they all following Classical Judaism? I'm not sure. But one thing I know is that the Haredi Rabbinate is also not following Classical Judaism and they should being treated as the universal truth. Israel is a free country. Allow civil marriages for all and let the couple choose who will marry them.
26 |
chana israel,
Saturday Oct 17, 2009
As I was reading through the posts all I could think was "this is the stupidity we are arguing about when the entire world is turning against Israel and her people. May god truly have mercy on us because if he doesnt no one will. it is the venom of a self hating Jew that has given anti-semites the world over the ammunition to once again attack Israel and deny our right to protect our own. klal yisrol must stand together now...more then ever before. We are all equal in Hashems eyes, we are all his children. Orthodox or secular we are brothers - now more then ever we need Ahavas Yisroel.
27 |
Joseph London,
Sunday Oct 18, 2009
Intermarriage is a Torah prohibition, and a Jewish state should not encourage it. Same sex unions might also transgress Torah Law in some cases [sodomy], so a Jewish state should not encourage it. Any two Halachic Jews -- Reform, Conservative or Orthodox can be married by an official Rabbi under the chupah and then choose their own type of celebration. The only group who must be provided for are those who are neither Muslim, Christian nor Jewish, and they should have a civil union.
28 |
Dave NY,
Sunday Oct 18, 2009
Let Jews marry Orthodox. Let those without religion marry outside of the Jewish State.
Why must we make it easy for non-Jews in our country?
Why can't Reformed and Conservative just have a ceremony that has been the norm for 3,000 years?
29 |
A reader in the US,
Sunday Oct 18, 2009
Joel - even your hero Ben Gurion recognized the importance of Jewish unity by agreeing that all religious matters would be according to Orthodox/Halachic standards so as not to tear apart the fabric of a people who, for 3,000 years, all kept the same set of laws. This is why there is a Chief Rabbinate. And to Ilan, no one is saying that everyone who is raised Orthodox stays that way, but there is certainly hard evidence that those who are raised Orthodox will marry and stay within the fold. Can reform and conservative say the same? Why do you think reform voted for patrilineal descent?
30 |
Shel Zahav,
Sunday Oct 18, 2009
Reply to Leah #24
How right you are. The Conservative "Movement" is a disingenuous Jewish movement toward oblivion. It has a hypocritical group of so-called rabbis that comes up with all sorts of pretenses of why this law or that law doesn't pertain to their leftist ideology and then calls itself "halachic". It is not.
31 |
Danny Hershtal, Kiryat Shmuel,
Sunday Oct 18, 2009
Ilan, it is illegal to misrepresent oneself as an agent of the Rabbinate. It is not illegal for a voodoo shaman to tell two or more people of any denomination that they are married according to voodoo stricture but not registered as married in Israel. All medical "benefits" related to marriage can be attained by signing your rights over to a specific person on a form available from every health insurance provider in Israel (though you have to ask them for this form upon joining the program). It can be changed once every 6 months. I agree that married couples should not receive mortgage benefit
32 |
Joseph London,
Sunday Oct 18, 2009
Reply to #21 and #22. Can you please give a reference as to where Maimonides says conversion should take one day? Until the 19th Century conversion to Judaism meant accepting the Revelation at Sinai and observing the Halacha. Reform was an attempt to bring Judaism into line with 19th Century German values and led to rampant intermarriage and assimilation. Why should we welcome this into Israel? Doing whatever you please, whenever and wherever is NOT Judaism !
33 |
Jew_In_Our_Land,
Sunday Oct 18, 2009
Growing up Conservative in the US (temple, Schechter, USY, Ramah, JTS), I met torah and halacha scholars. Eventually, I realized that they often used their scholarship to twist halacha to match Western, liberal worldviews. I even knew a Conservative rabbi who was arrested for smuggling illegal drugs into Israel. "Israeli law might be flawed. But these are not the people to dictate how it should be 'fixed'. While I'm glad to see the Conservative movement in decline, I sincerely hope that others in the movement will follow a similar path as mine - traditional observance and maybe even aliyah.
34 |
Tel Aviv Jew,
Sunday Oct 18, 2009
Do the math - if we discriminate against intermarriage we lose the Jew, his/her spouse and all the children and grandchildren for ever. If we open the doors to intermarriage and conversion we keep the Jew, the spouse and all the children. We are not a 'super race' that needs to be guarded against intermingling with the 'unpure'. We are a nation of people who, despite some shameful rabbinical actions, are still liked and even loved by some non-Jews. We should be joyous beyond belief that anyone not born Jewish is interested in marrying one of use and converting to our religion!!
35 |
Dave NY,
Sunday Oct 18, 2009
Why must those such as #33,30,24,12,etc. attack the Masorti Movement yet ignore the issue raised in the blog? Let us say they are correct and the Conservatives are worse than evil. What does that have to do with the author's point about so many Israeli citizens being denied a basic right to marry without paying money to fly to another country. Do the haters of Masorti support a theocracy?
36 |
Ilan Israel,
Sunday Oct 18, 2009
To #31. Again, you are flat out wr5ong. You may think it is legal for "a voodoo shaman to tell two or more people of any denomination that they are married according to voodoo stricture." But I suggest you get a copy of the Law on Marriage which makes it a criminal act for those not recognized by the State to perform a wedding ceremony.
You also say "All medical "benefits" related to marriage can be attained by signing your rights over to a specific person." Fine. Then eliminate marriage altogether. Or, grant it to all citizens.
37 |
Justina,
Sunday Oct 18, 2009
If only our enemies were so discriminating! Look at the way some of you spew hatred towards other Jews. Israel's enemies must only work half as hard at destroying Israel, since half the work is being done by us!
38 |
Akiva Avrohum, Manhattan, NY,
Monday Oct 19, 2009
Look, the whole situation of "What is a legal marriage" is ridiculous! Marriage is, and has always been, a contract between a man and woman to be faithful to each other. In ancient times a father could give his daughter in marriage to the man he thought would be in her best interest. As we all know, fathers are very protective of their daughters! No rabbinical approval was necessary on this matter. Gay marriage never existed and does not fall under the term of marriage. If Gays want to live together, as do others , so let them be and answer to their maker. Marriage is not their option!
39 |
Ilan Israel,
Monday Oct 19, 2009
To #38.You say "Marriage is, and has always been,a contract between a man and woman to be faithful to each other".So how is it that Abraham had sex with Hagar and married Keturah? How did Jacob have 2 wives and two concubines?
How did Solomon have 1,000 wives?
With whom did Adam and Eve,or their children, have sex (if not with each other) to propagate the species? "Always" is a loaded word with which you out be careful.
You say "gay marriage never existed." Neither did a Bat Mitzvah ceremony or Simchat Bat?Neither did Yom HaAtzmaut and Yom HaShoah. Shall we not include these in our observance?
40 |
Elliot - Jerusalem/NY,
Monday Oct 19, 2009
I have always felt that a Jewish/Democratic state was an oxymoron. Either the rule of the land is religious, i.e. based on the tradition of the Torah, or it is democratic and everyone can do as they please provided they're not harming their neighbor. All we have now is a foggy notion that causes never ending conflict between Jews. I don't have a solution, but at least I see the problem.
41 |
Justina,
Monday Oct 19, 2009
#38 Akiva: what is your point? Since gay marriage did not exist beforehand it should not exist now? The reasoning you use is that a father could give away his daughter in ancient times without a rabbi's approval, nevermind the daughter's. So by your logic of relying on tradition, that is how marriage should be done today. Please clarify.
42 |
Shmuel, Herzliah Israel,
Monday Oct 19, 2009
If we want a Jewish state, we must act like Jews. That is, loyalty to halacha. If we don't do that, then why have a Jewish state?
It's quite simple.
43 |
Cember - 1,
Tuesday Oct 20, 2009
@ #11 and others who agree with you: I am a Jew per halakha, but mainly, I'm a Jew because I number myself among Am Yisrael. Am Yisrael is a cultural/ethnic description of which Dat Yisrael is only 1 element. You say, "Democracy and freedom means more to you than basic halachic principles! It's more important to be like other democratic countries and than to do G-d's will!" You are 100% correct. I would renounce my citizenship were Israel not a free democracy. A lawbook from G_d and His self-annointed representatives is anti-democratic, and should only apply to those who accept its ...
44 |
Cember - 2,
Tuesday Oct 20, 2009
... authority. I, for one, don't, and I don't think it makes me any less a Jew than you. The solution to the marriage problem referred to by Rabbi Sacks is complete disestablishment. Civil registry of marriage should be required of all, and the registry shouldn't permit any question of religious or gender identity. With the certificate of registration in hand, the new couple should then have the right to any religious ceremony (or none) that they choose. It would then be purely a religious matter if the chosen religious authority is willing to accept the couple. Problem solved!
45 |
Ilan,
Tuesday Oct 20, 2009
I do not think that Rabbi Sacks is advocating complete disestablsihment. He is advocating that as an option for those who can not now marry, or for those who do not have a favorable place in their hearts (to state it mildly) for the official rabbinate.
Civil Unions will still allow for religious marriage (but not limited to Orthodox) and will allow those unable to marry in Israel to have a way to do so.
As for Gays-better they should not be in monogomous and committed relationships?
46 |
Zakah -USA,
Tuesday Oct 20, 2009
My mom, with a MA in religion studied at J'lem Univ for a year in 1959/60. She fell in love with an Ingram member who had fought for Israel's independance. My mom's moral ideas kept her from living with her love w/o marriage and she returned to the US. She stayed in contact with her love until she died in 1998. She was respon. for my conversion to Judisam 1979. In the last years of her life would only go to temple with me. I was converted by a Rabbi, who firmly believed a reformed Jew was an informed Jew who knew the diff. bet'n law and tradition. Medivel tradition shouldn't be law in Israel.
47 |
Joseph,
Tuesday Oct 20, 2009
Rabbi Andrew is the least person in the world to make such comments. It appears he does not personally know the God he serves or worshipped. Oh Israe,l you are the people of covenant. Your survival in this world depends on your part to keep and obey your covenant with your Lord God and of one of them is to keep his holiness. Gay marriage is a serious sin against his holiness. Gays will not save you from natural disasters, from sickness, from terrorist attacks, from military invasion but your Lord God who loves you but hate sin. Please never forghet sodom and gormorah incident.
48 |
Dovid NYC,
Wednesday Oct 21, 2009
Why so much sinaat hinam? What can't Reformed and Conservative Jews just live as Jews and put their policyical agena aside?
What is wrong with traditional marriage for all Jews? Let the Goyim marry as they wish.
Gays may live freely but the State of Israel need not support their perversions.
Wht can't we all just get along?
49 |
akiva Avrohum, Manhattan, NY,
Wednesday Oct 21, 2009
To Post # 39 - Bottom line: Marriage has always been between a man & woman. Marriage rituals change over time but they have always been between a man and woman. Stop trying to change things to fit your lifestyle. If you want to be gay or live with someone go ahead but don't try making it something that it is not. It is like trying to mix apples and oranges. They are both fruits but they are not the same. You just can't change things to fit your particular needs. Sorry I cannot agree with your post.
50 |
Aya Jewhuasca,
Wednesday Oct 21, 2009
To those who have scolded me for telling #1 to join the Taliban or live in Iran: This is called hyperbole. I don't expect, nor was I suggesting that Shel Zahav actually move to Iran or Afghanistan. This would not make sense, because Shel Zahav is a Jew and not a Muslim. I was pointing out the similarity between his/her theocratic, non-democratic view and those of some of our Abrahamic brothers and sisters in the Muslim world. I suspect that if Shel Zahav were a Muslim, s/he would feel quite comfortable living under Sharia rule.
51 |
Cember,
Wednesday Oct 21, 2009
@ #48: Sinat hinam? What you propose is a continuation of the status quo -- a status quo in which the religious establishment just happens to have a direct and enormous political and financial stake. Get ALL religion out of civil law and the public purse! Let religion stand on its own merits in the free market of ideas. State coercion on behalf of religious ideology demeans both the state and religion.
52 |
miki,
Wednesday Oct 21, 2009
Could see people were beten blody in a factory , israelis
of the owners guards, realy blody they were potesting aganst
too low salaries.A friend of the ruling party protected the intrests of the owner
and simplely beaten the workers realy hard.Saw on their faces they were chocked
in a video on the jeruselam post.
53 |
Justina,
Thursday Oct 22, 2009
#48-Dovid: In one sentence you refer to gays as perverts and in the next you ask why we can't all just get along. Do you even realize what you just said? That sort of insult doesn't seem like a great way of creating an environment of tolerance.
Furthermore, I would just like to make it clear that I, personally, would prefer to be married by a rabbi in accordance with tradition. That means I would like a regular frum rabbi to marry me: Orthodox/Modern Orthodox. I DO NOT WANT a rabbi dressed like an 18th century Polish noble who's idea of Halakha is always chumcha but never kula to marry me!
54 |
marina,
Thursday Oct 22, 2009
Justina: I did not find #48's comment at all illogical. One can say live and let live and get along, and I am all for that. I really don't care what y'all do. But marriage is a sacred covenant and it was around long before civil governments. And marriage means making a family. That takes a man and a woman and whatever the gays are doing, real marriage will never be biologically possiibe for them - two people of the same gender cannot reproduce. So, yes, pretending to 'marry' them is in fact the civil government legally promoting a perversion of nature.
55 |
Justina,
Thursday Oct 22, 2009
#54 Marina: So let me ask you, should couples who are infertile be referred to as perversions of nature? Heterosexual couples that adopt instead, are they perversions of nature? Also, you refer to gays as perversions of nature but did you know there are animals, who in nature, are gay? Those are rhetorical questions. My point is times change, things change and if you really want to live and let live, I don't think it's necessary to resort to name calling.
56 |
akiva Avrohum, Manhattan, NY,
Thursday Oct 22, 2009
Justina Post #41 - Read post #49 - You don't get the point at all. The term marriage is an act between a man and woman. Same sex people living together do not fit the concept that the word marriage was intended for. The reason that gay people want the term marriage applied to them is because they want its moral status applied to their relationships. Since legal acceptance and benefits can be achieved by civil union there is no other reason for their wanting this term applied to them. Again, you are trying to mix apple and oranges. The relationships appear similar but are different.
57 |
akiva Avrohum, Manhattan, NY,
Thursday Oct 22, 2009
POST#1: TO Shel Zahav:
American Jews are just as dedicated to the concepts of Judaism as Jews in Israel ! Your arrogance is obvious and not in the spirit of Jewish teachings. Examine your own life and stop thinking the only real Jew is someone like you !
58 |
faith, New York, USA,
Thursday Oct 22, 2009
To Post #1 - To Shel Zahav:
American Torah Jews are just as dedicated to the concepts of Judaism as Torah Jews in Israel ! They continue to live in the United States and practice Torah Judaism there. Do you therefore consider them sinful because they do not make aliyah ? Your arrogance is obvious and not in the spirit of Jewish teachings. Examine your own life and stop thinking the only real Jew is someone like you !
59 |
faith, New York, USA,
Thursday Oct 22, 2009
To Justina:
I understand your position of not denying people the right to live as they chose. However, all people cannot do whatever they want to satisfy their own parochial needs. From a moral point of view same sex marriage is not acceptable. It has never been acceptable in the past nor is it acceptable now. Same sex marriage between consenting adults cannot be made anymore acceptable or moral than marriage between consenting adults who are sister and brother, father and daughter or mother and son ! Human lust and wants must be brought under control. It is the Torah which shows the way!
60 |
Justina,
Thursday Oct 22, 2009
To Faith #59. If you so firmly believe that the Torah shows "the" way, a position I can respect, I have a question for you. Hypothetically, two Christian siblings born with Jewish souls decide to convert to Judaism. Following conversion, as per Halakha, they are not related. The two decide to marry. Should this union be opposed? Sure, they may be related biologically but that is not Torah. Halakha has no reason to oppose this union, why should we?
61 |
Ilan Israel,
Thursday Oct 22, 2009
To #59.You say"From a moral point of view same sex marriage is not acceptable."
Really?At best Judaism frowns on certain sexual acts - but where is the issue of same sex "marraige" declared immoral?And is the morality of Jewish tradition, as you understand it,absolute such that it must be enacted into civil law?
Now if you suggest that Gay couples are certain to have what you consider immoral sex,I presume you do not think that there may be some elderly people who marry for companionship and not necessarily for sex.
And why can't people "satisfy their own parochial needs" if nobody gets hurt?
62 |
faith, NYC, USA,
Sunday Oct 25, 2009
Justina #60 : You are evading my real question. If you allow gay marriages, is it logical to conclude that all consenting adults must be allowed to have the same right to marry ? Also, Justina, Torah is Torah and Halacha is man's interpretation of the Torah. Torah never changes but Halacha rulings have been changed over the centuries. At one time an uncle was allowed to marry a niece, this is no longer allowed ! If non-Jewish siblings converted to Judaism their status as brother and sister would remain the same. The Torah does not say that conversion changes their sibling status !
63 |
faith, NYC, USA,
Sunday Oct 25, 2009
IIan Israel # 61 - Morality, in matters of sexual relations from a Jewish/Christian/Islamic aspect, has always been determined in reference to the prohibitions in the Hebrew bible. Western civilization has also used those same prohibitions to set up their secular laws in dealing with sexual relations. People who believe those prohibitions to be the word of G-d have determined that those sexual acts are not moral. I gather that you do not accept those prohibitions being from G-d and therefore feel that anything goes when two consenting adults want to get it on. If so, I see your problem!
64 |
Justina,
Tuesday Oct 27, 2009
#62/Faith, I would suggest you read up on the matter since I can assure you that following giyur, a convert is not related to his or her biological sibling. A woman born to a non-Jewish mother and a Jewish father is not related to her father (since the mother was not Jewish). Following conversion, the girl would be permitted to marry her biological father. In any event, if Halacha is just an interpretation of Torah, one rabbi's interpretation would differ from another's. Therefore, some may read into the prohibition on anal sex differently than others. There is no need to call gays perverts.
65 |
Ilan,
Tuesday Oct 27, 2009
To #64: Of course there is a need to call Gays perverts. This allows one to justify a closed minded, bigotted postion. Notice that Shabbat transgressors are not called perverts. Nor those who do not observe family purity laws. But nobody is calling to make unions between those who do not go to the Mikveh illegal.
And to accept the idea that "some may read into the prohibition on anal sex differently than others" is to acknowlege that part of tradion that asserts that there are 70 faces to the Torah. It is so much easier to live in the dark.
66 |
faith, New York, USA,
Tuesday Oct 27, 2009
Sorry Justina but you still refuse to responded to my question in post #62. You also continue to accept man made halacha to be true Torah teachings. Orthodox & Conservative Rabbi's do not agree on many issues that come up. Israeli orthodox Rabbis have no exclusive right to determine halacha for the rest of the Jews in this world. Again, brother and sister would continue to be brother & sister after a conversion to Judaism. It is only moral and logical that they do ! Get off your misguided view that Jewish orthodoxy has the sole authority to determine Jewish law, they do not !!!
67 |
akiva Avrohum, Manhattan, NY,
Tuesday Oct 27, 2009
Justina:. Orthodox & Conservative Rabbi's do not agree on many issues that come up. Israeli orthodox Rabbis have no exclusive right to determine halacha for the rest of the Jews in this world. Brother and sister would continue to be brother & sister after a conversion to Judaism. It is only moral and logical that they do ! Any ruling to the contrary would be a chilul Hashem. No orthodox rabbi would marry a brother and sister who converted to Judaism. Your whole attitude in this matter is really not worthy of someone who appears to be learned in Jewish law !
68 |
Justina,
Wednesday Oct 28, 2009
To #66-67 (since I think you're the same person): I take exception to the way you describe my attitude as being "nor worthy". I'm sorry you disagree with Halakha on this matter, I do too.
I must ask you if Orthodox and Conservative Rabbis do not have the right to dictate what is acceptable Halakha to everyone else, why should I accept their rulings regarding homosexuals (I don't)? There may be a Torah prohibition against anal sex, but not against lesbian sex or homosexuals being attracted to each other. As for your question, I believe consenting adults should have the right to marry.
69 |
Justina,
Wednesday Oct 28, 2009
To Ilan: I could not agree with you more. People who are not shomrei mitzvot (namely re: family purity, kashrut and shabbat) are never subjected to the same treatment as those who are homosexuals. This is something the Orthodox establishment won't budge on. It saddens me to see the way people can be so narrow-minded when it comes to homosexuality, yet open-minded to so many other apparent transgressions. It is easier to live in the dark but I'm glad to see Ilan that you are not. I wish you all the best.
70 |
faith, New York, USA,
Thursday Oct 29, 2009
Justina: Thank you for your direct answer. You have confirmed that incest, by consenting adults, is OK with you. Your position is considered prohibited by the Torah. This is prohibited without question and no interpretations are necessary by man made Halacha. As stated before, the Torah accepts that there are homosexuals but prohibits them from having only carnal relations. As for plutonic or affectionate relations no comment is made. It is however logical to conclude that they would lead to carnal relations. As for women lying with women, I would agree that the Torah does not comment on it.
71 |
robert, Manhattan, USA,
Sunday Nov 08, 2009
I agree with comment #70. This is not a matter of Halacha or orthodoxy. The Torah does directly prohibit incest. It also says that homosexuals are forbidden to conduct sexual relations in the same way as heterosexuals do. Homosexuals have no more moral right to their claimed lifestyle than do consenting adults who want to have any other type of sexual relations that are forbidden in the Torah. The only reason that marriage for homosexuals is being considered by politicians is for their unified vote. Morality is absolutely not the reason why these politicians are voting for it !!!
72 |
marc paige Fort Lauderdale,
Tuesday Nov 24, 2009
And let's make sure we STONE TO DEATH children that misbehave!!!!!
It's in the Torah!
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